MESO-Rx

Anabolic Steroids

My introduction.....

If your doc says you're cured with a T at 400 while you feel like shit, then find another doctor!

Go back on clomid. 25 mg every day and after a month, taper to every other day. See how it goes. Get labs every 30 days.

Stay away from T and HCG for now - they're both suppressive.

At some point later on, switch from clomid to HCG and see if you can re-start. Take a look at Dr. Scally's re-start protocol.
 
LW64 said:
If your doc says you're cured with a T at 400 while you feel like shit, then find another doctor!

Go back on clomid. 25 mg every day and after a month, taper to every other day. See how it goes. Get labs every 30 days.

Stay away from T and HCG for now - they're both suppressive.

At some point later on, switch from clomid to HCG and see if you can re-start. Take a look at Dr. Scally's re-start protocol.
Click to expand...

I agree with LW64, except I would add the following: get your diagnosis first. You don't have to wait until you reach your target weight to pursue your diagnosis, unless you are still convinced that it is all caused by your obesity. While I think it's safe to say that most of us here are pretty convinced at this point that it's not about your obesity, it sounds like your Dr. still is.

I think that might be the problem; you need the help of a good diagnostician who is willing to test you for primary vs. secondary... It sounds like you've had two experiences so far: one doctor, who wasn't really willing to put in the extra leg work to get a definitive diagnosis, and another doctor who is willing to put in the work, but is hung up on his E2 theory.

Is there a door #3?
 
Don't know if there's a doctor #3....can't seem to find anyone who knows someone around here experienced in hypogonadism.
 
idmd said:
Don't know if there's a doctor #3....can't seem to find anyone who knows someone around here experienced in hypogonadism.
Click to expand...

If it were me, I'd go to ratemds.com, and just pick any endocrinologist that has good ratings / comments indicating he / she was thorough. Any endocrinologist is capable of testing you for primary vs. secondary; the problem is that most of them don't want to put in the time / effort.

When I was in a similar situation in the past, I took my bloodwork to a few endos, saying "here's evidence of a problem, and we know how to treat it, but I want to know why. Are you willing to give me such-and-such tests?" It's a quick way to weed out the ones that are actually going to be helpful...
 
I think for know I'm just going to stay the course and keep working on weight loss. The more I read about obesity and low T the more I find that it's not just driven by too much aromatase and E2 production. Glucose levels, insulin sensitivity, sleep apnea, etc all play a part. So while no one would expect a profound jump in my T based solely on my not elevated E2 levels.....that's just one of the mechanisms involved in T suppression.

I'm feeling a little better with mood. Libido is better but not high. Morning wood is back as are my very hard erections once I get into it. Still feel "empty" and "depleted" physically at the gym but I'm still going so we will see.
 
idmd said:
I think for know I'm just going to stay the course and keep working on weight loss. The more I read about obesity and low T the more I find that it's not just driven by too much aromatase and E2 production. Glucose levels, insulin sensitivity, sleep apnea, etc all play a part. So while no one would expect a profound jump in my T based solely on my not elevated E2 levels.....that's just one of the mechanisms involved in T suppression.

I'm feeling a little better with mood. Libido is better but not high. Morning wood is back as are my very hard erections once I get into it. Still feel "empty" and "depleted" physically at the gym but I'm still going so we will see.
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I probably dont belong in this discussion, but I have been accused of being a little too tenacious. I am the smartest guy in the room BUT for the Doctors and all the Ph D's

To stay the course and lose weight sounds like a plan to me. While I respect your credentials and the credentials and study of the likes of 'structure', 'LW64', and others, I do have some years on most of you and 37 to be exact on you, idmd.

The fact of this matter may be, there just aint no other door! The one pattern that appears to me to be consistent on this board is: Lack of Patience!! If a forum member states his case there will be ten's of recommendations and few will be "ride it out". I believe all the hormone stuff is very cyclical. Did I say very? I meant very, very, very cyclical! with or without us tweaking every membrane in our ego driven male bodies.

I believe it is inherent in the Scientist, MD, PhD to want to add just a smidgen more juice to the test tube, to see if things get better. That smidgen may cause an explosion when you might have been on the verge of "Good, Better, Best.

Dont get me wrong. I respect this board and the contributors of this board. I have also found many of the recommendation submitted to be very useful personally. IMO I believe in seeing if a change will settle things after it percolates a time rather than the constant manipulation and agitation. My thinking is the 'Best' never gets the chance to rise to the surface. Patience, Patience Patience. Love you guys. :)
 
Patience is my specialty. The secret to my success has always been never make a hasty decision and make that decision on the objective facts. I figure I've felt this way for 10+ years.....what's another 6 or 12 months if that means fixing this without TRT.

I'm down 25 lbs. I've settled into a "diet" that I don't consider a diet. I eat eggs or Greek yogurt for breakfast. A hefty sandwich or parts of a salmon teriyaki box for lunch and lots of fish and salads for dinner. I've found so long as I keep my caloric intake under 2800 calories per day regardless of what people say about the ratio of carbs to protein to fat I keep losing weight (fat and not lean mass), inches from my belly and I never have to starve myself.

Seems the first law of thermodynamics holds true even for weight loss.
 
idmd said:
Patience is my specialty. The secret to my success has always been never make a hasty decision and make that decision on the objective facts. I figure I've felt this way for 10+ years.....what's another 6 or 12 months if that means fixing this without TRT.
Click to expand...

I didnt think the lack of patience comment applied to you - but to the board in general.
 
LW64 said:
I didnt think the lack of patience comment applied to you - but to the board in general.
Click to expand...

That is also true.

@idmd. What works for you is good! No one can take that away. We can all recommend what worked for "Me" , but after all the hard work and grinding it has to work for the member trying to find the solution that puts 'Feel good' back into his life. FWIW, I commend you for the rational you have given your situation and I'm for ya man! Looks like you are working towards a positive end. :)
 
I didn't think it was directed me....I took the comment as a compliment and was just reiterating the importance of your comment :-)
 
keriheat said:
That is also true.

@idmd. What works for you is good! No one can take that away. We can all recommend what worked for "Me" , but after all the hard work and grinding it has to work for the member trying to find the solution that puts 'Feel good' back into his life. FWIW, I commend you for the rational you have given your situation and I'm for ya man! Looks like you are working towards a positive end. :)
Click to expand...

Part of it is I'm lucky I'm a so big and my caloric intake to lose weight is still so high. I exercised for 1:20 and did 7 miles on the eliptical for 1100 calories. For food today I had yogurt for breakfast @ 200 calories. Lunch was on the run and I never do this but had 2 McDonald's cheese burgers and water for 600 calories. For dinner had Chipotle bowl and tacos for 1100 calories and a half bottle of wine for 500 calories. While not the healthiest day I've still only consumed 2300 calories which is still 500 less than my goal and I've burned 1100 leaving me at still needing to consume 1700 calories to get to my 2800 calorie a day goal but I'm full and I'm done. I will undoubtedly wake tomorrow and be 1/2 pound lighter.
 
Not due for blood work until end of the month and I'm dying to know what it will show. The last two weeks have been very positive with most of my issues completely resolving. My observations are:

1. Currently taking a multi, 8000IU of D3 and a B complex. Insisting on 8-10 hours of sleep per night. 100 mcg Synthroid. I have to admit to structure with a leap of faith I've been taking 1mg arimidex E3D for the past 4 weeks and absolutely no joint issues. Little do you know structure I pay an insane amount for disability insurance and every dentist's wet dream is collecting $20K per month tax free for the rest of their lives :-P

2. Diet is evolving towards a paleo diet without me being too conscious about it. Heavy in fish, lean meats and non-starchy vegetables. Severely restricting EtOH but still having a glass or two of wine per week.

3. Down 30 lbs which seems like I've plateau'd since my last update but I've been eating more and lifting more on top of cardio and my belt size is significantly small. I'm as muscularly developed and as strong as I've ever been - my lean mass is up substantially.

4. Mentally feeling really good. Great energy, great mood, fog is gone, enjoying other people more. Many comments from staff at work. NOT tired all the time!

5. Two staff members commented my color looks much better - apparently I was looking gray before.

6. Pretty much a constant erection after 2am. Libido is moderate but my erections are rock hard and my testicles feel fuller and penis looks bigger - could be entirely because my erections are harder. I'm cranking one out in the morning and having sex at night daily without any stamina issues. My penis works better now than when I was 18 - I surely have more control over it. Orgasms are as intense as ever.

7. Pimples all over my upper legs, ass, chest and stomach. I'm NOT normally nor have I ever been pimply.

8. MUCH less heat intolerance. I have always been a sweaty guy but not so much now. Actually asking to turn the temp up and staff are pleading for me to leave it down.

I'm dying to know my numbers but will have wait...of my test is not up and my thyroid doesn't look better than I'm more than happy because this is the most legit placebo effect ever.
 
Last edited:
idmd said:
Not due for blood work until end of the month and I'm dying to know what it will show. The last two weeks have been very positive with most of my issues completely resolving. My observations are:

1. Currently taking a multi, 8000IU of D3 and a B complex. Insisting on 8-10 hours of sleep per night. 100 mcg Synthroid. I have to admit to structure with a leap of faith I've been taking 1mg arimidex E3D for the past 4 weeks and absolutely no joint issues. Little do you know structure I pay an insane amount for disability insurance and every dentist's wet dream is collecting $20K per month tax free for the rest of their lives :-P

2. Diet is evolving towards a paleo diet without me being too conscious about it. Heavy in fish, lean meats and non-starchy vegetables. Severely restricting EtOH but still having a glass or two of wine per week.

3. Down 30 lbs which seems like I've plateau'd since my last update but I've been eating more and lifting more on top of cardio and my belt size is significantly small. I'm as muscularly developed and as strong as I've ever been - my lean mass is up substantially.

4. Mentally feeling really good. Great energy, great mood, fog is gone, enjoying other people more. Many comments from staff at work. NOT tired all the time!

5. Two staff members commented my color looks much better - apparently I was looking gray before.

6. Pretty much a constant erection after 2am. Libido is moderate but my erections are rock hard and my testicles feel fuller and penis looks bigger - could be entirely because my erections are harder. I'm cranking one out in the morning and having sex at night daily without any stamina issues. My penis works better now than when I was 18 - I surely have more control over it. Orgasms are as intense as ever.

7. Pimples all over my upper legs, ass, chest and stomach. I'm NOT normally nor have I ever been pimply.

8. MUCH less heat intolerance. I have always been a sweaty guy but not so much now. Actually asking to turn the temp up and staff are pleading for me to leave it down.

I'm dying to know my numbers but will have wait...of my test is not up and my thyroid doesn't look better than I'm more than happy because this is the most legit placebo effect ever.
Click to expand...

LOL, no need for confession. My job is to warn; I just want others making informed decisions (mine was not).

You might be interested to know that so far, your experience was no different than mine. For the first month, I had such frequent erections that it was actually a bit annoying. I don't like sitting in the car, waiting for my rock hard cock to go down just so I can pick up some groceries... Not that I didn't find time to enjoy this little side benefit, but it did get in the way every now and then.

Pain-wise, I didn't experience a single thing until the second month. I was exceptionally stupid in that once the pain presented, I continued to take it for some weeks after. I didn't take it seriously until I noticed that the pain was escalating instead of getting better...

FWIW: I'm counting on a full recovery, eventually. If I still have issues at the 3 / 4 year mark, I'll opt for surgical release of the affected tendons. I can say with sincerity that you could not pay me even $20k / mo to live with this level of incapacity for life; work is one thing, but living ordinary life with these restrictions is quite another...

Hopefully, your experience will be different. And for chrissake, if you do start to experience pain, stop the medication stat.
 
I'm just really interested to see what my T, E2 and FSH are this point.

Decided with the doctor the moment I feel any joint issues (or any untoward issues) I stop immediately and call him. I did some research and there are some articles out there suggesting D3 has a protective effect and so I bumped that up significantly - who knows if it really does anything. It's a risk for sure......

I'll post my labs when they're in since there was quite a bit of debate whether an AI would do anything with my relatively low E2. Of course determining how much of it is due to weight loss vs AI vs thyroid may not be easy to tease out.
 
Another positive...BP was 123/73 today at work....a tension filled place. I suspect it's even lower now that I'm home.
 
idmd said:
Another positive...BP was 123/73 today at work....a tension filled place. I suspect it's even lower now that I'm home.
Click to expand...

Read 'em and weep youngster!!

MVC-003S.jpg


Not bad for a old guy huh? I dont get to 'one up' much anymore! LOL :D
 
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