My (Not So Good) Experience With TMG

[DavidZ]

We have focussed our attention on indole-3-carbinol, a compound found in cruciferous vegetables, and its further metabolites in the body, diindolylmethane (DIM) and indolylcarbazole (ICZ), because of its relative safety and multifaceted activities. It has been shown that it induces CyP4501A1, increasing 2-hydroxylation of estrogens, leading to the protective 2-OHE1, and also decreases CyP1B1 sharply, inhibiting 4-hydroxylation of estradiol, thereby decreasing the formation of the carcinogenic 4-OHE1.

cpeil that's the one !!

Dr Crisler said there are 2 studies showing an increase on cyp1b1. why would they do that ? contradicting themselves ?

thank you cpeil

I believe this issue remains unanswered.

Swale claims that DIM increases 4-OHEs and recommends men taking DIM should also take TMG to counter this effect. Swale makes this claim based on 2 articles he read, but neither he, nor anyone else, has been able to produce these articles here for our consideration.

OTOH, the article cite above says that DIM decreases 4-OHEs.

Can anyone shed some light on this issue?

 

[pmgamer18]

Therefore, by necessity, I have developed a set of high and low E2 symptoms over the years that allow me to respond very quickly to my E2 level. The blood tests now serve to confirm or contradict my subjective observations.


I also have done this for over 2 yrs. now and I can tell if I am going to high or to low. And my blood tests confirm how I felt.

 

[SWALE]

Let's all have another look at the study jboldman originally provided, gracioulsy referenced by cpeil2, presented in this very thread:

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showp...64&postcount=8

DavidZ, go back, look at that study again, then report to us whether you still think it concluded DIM lowers 4-OHE.

Outside of just being able to read what is obviously printed, it is also important to know what scientific studes actually say. Even more important, what they do NOT say.

Do we have any long term studies showing any of this stuff actually works? Not that I have seen. What we DO have are a few precious works, suggesting mere pieces of the puzzle. So we are just doing the best we can with what we have to work with. It is folly to write things like "flies in the face of all we know" when we know so very little. AND when one is relying on studies which do not even come close to addressing the claim that is being made!

It is not "scientific method" to try any treatment therapy where these particular hormonal issues are involved, and, based upon some subjective report the first couple of days, abandon--even condemn--same. Once you disrupt the hormonal matrix, it can take weeks, even months, for things to settle out. No one who knows anything about hormonal manipulation would make such a foolish statement. Especially when the given therapy has been shown to present so much promise.

We use an aromatase inhibitor to lower estrogens when their overall concentration is too high. We use the estrogen metabolite modifiers in order to bring about a more healthful balance amongst the forty or so estrogens within our bodies. That is it.

There is no such thing as a "very very narrow" optimal range for E2. In fact, no such animal exists. These hormones vary widely in their concentrations throughout the day.

Dosages of the OTC's we discuss here in this thread are titrated through urinary 24 hour labwork. NOT subjective benefit.

There is no known mechanism whatsoever whereas TMG could cause erectile dysfunction. There is no science behind such a claim.

The REAL question, as I see it, is whether I-3-C or DIM is best. At this point, I am going to recommend the parent compound I-3-C.

There is NO question, IMPO, of the positive healthful benefits of TMG. We all need more methyl groups.

Frankly, there is a lot of nonsense being posted here. People really need to learn a little of the science involved before they try to make themselves out to be someone they are not. My fear is that the health of the good members of this Board may be damaged by this irresponsible bravado.

 

[stat1951]

Questions on DIM

This following study was first posted back on this Board in March (I believe) and opened a lot of questions on DIM that I am not sure ever were answered.

Toxicol Sci. 2001 May;61(1):40-8. Related Articles,

2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and diindolylmethanes differentially induce cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

Sanderson JT, Slobbe L, Lansbergen GW, Safe S, van den Berg M. - Research Institute for Toxicology, Utrecht University

Diindolylmethane (DIM) is an acid-catalyzed condensation product of indole-3-carbinol, a constituent of cruciferous vegetables, and is formed in the stomach. DIM alters estrogen metabolism and inhibits carcinogen-induced mammary tumor growth in rodents. DIM is a weak agonist for the aryl hydrocarbon (Ah) receptor and blocks the effects of estrogens via inhibitory Ah receptor-estrogen receptor cross-talk. DIM and various structural analogs were examined in H295R cells for effects on 3 cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes involved in estrogen synthesis and/or metabolism: CYP1A1, CYP1B1, and CYP19 (aromatase). Aromatase activity was measured by conversion of 1 beta-(3)H-androstenedione to estrone and (3)H(2)O. H295R cells were exposed to the test chemicals dissolved in dimethyl sulfoxide for 24 h prior to analyses. 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD) (0--30 nM) and DIM (0--10 microM) induced ethoxyresorufin-O-deethylase (EROD) activity, as a measure of CYP1A1 and possibly 1B1 activity, with EC(50) values of about 0.3 nM and 3 microM, respectively. DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 microM; higher concentrations of DIM and many of its analogs were cytotoxic. TCDD (30 nM) significantly increased CYP1A1 and 1B1 mRNA levels, but had no effect on mRNA for CYP19. DIM (3 microM) significantly increased mRNA levels for all three CYPS: DIM analogs with substitutions on the 5 and 5' position (3 microM) induced aromatase and EROD activity, together with mRNA levels of CYP1A1, 1B1, and 19; analogs that were substituted on the central carbon of the methane group showed little or no inductive activity toward the CYPS: In conclusion, DIM and several of its analogs appear to induce CYPs via multiple yet distinct pathways in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

As a lot of this (all of it?) is pretty technical stuff, possibly SWALE could provide some insight into what this study is indicating? Does DIM - according to this study - increase aromatase activity? And - as someone with an adrenal gland tumor and hypercortisolism problems - what is meant by "DIM and several of its analogs appear to induce CYPs via multiple yet distinct pathways in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells"???

Also, in a study provided by Dr. Zleigs organization (via a request to his company BioResponse Nutrients - they will supply an informational folder on request), I also noted the following information:

The treatment group received daily DIM (108 mg DIM/day) supplements for 30 days and the control group received a placebo capsule daily for 30 days. Urinary metabolite analysis included 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE)), 16-alpha hydroxyestrone (16a-OHE1), DIM, estrone (E1), estradiol (E2), estriol (E3), 6b-hydroxycortisol (6b-OHC), and cortisol in the first morning urine sample before intervention and 31 days after intervention... DIM treated subjects, relative to placebo, showed a significant increase in levels of 2-OHE1 (p=0.020), DIM (p=0.045) and cortisol (p=0.039)... Effect of 3,3-diindolylmethane (DIM) supplements on urinary estrogen metabolites - Dalessandri KM, Firestone GL, Fitch MD, Bradlow HL, and Bjeldanes LF - Proc. Am. Assoc. Cancer Res. 2002 Apr; 43, 3198

Am I missing something, or is that in fact saying that DIM use "significantly" increased cortisol levels? If so, I imagine that would be a good thing for those individuals who have adrenal fatigue and significanlty low levels of cortisol... but not good for others. Especially those with high normal cortisol levels, borderline high cortisol levels or especially those with elevated cortisol levels. Maybe going directly with an AI such as Arimidex would be a better option in such individuals?

Thanks for providing and layman type answers to a lot of technical information...

Larry

 

[ciobl]

Swale makes this claim based on 2 articles he read, but neither he, nor anyone else, has been able to produce these articles here for our consideration.

Can anyone shed some light on this issue?

i can't shed any light. ( please don't take this the wrong way ) but david and everyone, it would be nice, really really nice if everyone contributes or makes an effort to search for all this conglomerate of stuff.

only one, just one citation i think ( on the pile of references ) came up that heads in the direction swale mentioned about increase on cyp1b1.

Lubet RA Beebe L Bjeldanes L Bradlow LH Kelloff GJ Steele VE Eto I Grubbs CJ

Chemopreventive effects of indole-3-carbinol (3IC) on MNU induced mammary cancer in Sprague Dawley rats (Meeting abstract).

In: Proc Annu Meet Am Assoc Cancer Res (201996) 37:1890

3IC, which is found at high levels in vegetables of the Brassica genus, was administered ig (600, 150 or 38 mg/Kg BW/day) to 53 day old rats initiated 3 days previously with N-methyl-N-nitrosourea (MNU). Inhibition of tumor multiplicity was approx 35% at the two higher doses while the lowest dose of 3IC had no effect. In contrast 3IC caused a dose dependent increase in the levels of CYP 1A1 and CYP 1A2 in the liver. 3IC or its metabolites indole carbazole (ICZ) or a dimeric condensation product (DIM) could not be detected in mammary tissue. A dose dependent increase in ICZ in both liver and feces as well as relatively high levels of DIM in feces (0.05-1.0 mg/gram) was observed over the dose range of 3IC examined. Thus, 3IC is an effective chemopreventive even when administered following MNU- initiation.

Institutional address: NCI, DCPC, Bethesda, MD 20892

i support swale on i3c over dim. I have different paper statements, some with an apparent sales and promoting pitch from indole-3-carbozol and Diindolylmethane that I 'm not going to post since it is readily obvious is directed to increase profits on an industry surpassing 15 billion on sales and counting, yep, how do you like them apples ? even though this paper might easily be misinterpreted with the aforementioned , i consider it to be as accrual as possible by showing the number of clinical trials both products have been exposed and by reassuring my personal observations on past searchings.

 

[pmgamer18]

SWALE where did you read that some said "There is no known mechanism what so ever where as TMG could cause erectile dysfunction" I never seen this said. What was said is using Indolplex/DIM brings on morning erections.

 

[pmgamer18]

Here is a link to 95 articles at PubMed.
http://tinyurl.com/dcwdv
I found this link put the subject of DIM in a language that is easy to understand.
http://www.atdonline.org/pdf/DIMandCancer.pdf
And this link is full of links.
http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

 

[SWALE]

Gamer--Wasn't it being said that TMG induces negative subjective side effects?

 

[DavidZ]

It is not "scientific method" to try any treatment therapy where these particular hormonal issues are involved, and, based upon some subjective report the first couple of days, abandon--even condemn--same.

This is a gross distortion of the truth. And you know it!

I aborted my trial because I could see that my health was going downhill quickly. I did not come to any conclusion at that point in time, although I suspected that my E2 was increasing based on my symptoms.

It wasn't until Phil reported his complete trial, which confirmed my suspicions and included blood tests indicating sky high E2 and all its attendant symptoms, that I concluded that TMG somehow interferes with the action of Indolplex DIM.

I made this sequence of logic crystal clear at least twice in this thread.

Is the above statement what you mean by "intellectual honesty?"

 

[HeadDoc]

I think that ND's explanation helps.

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7855&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

 

[stat1951]

Here is a link to 95 articles at PubMed.
http://tinyurl.com/dcwdv I found this link put the subject of DIM in a language that is easy to understand. http://www.atdonline.org/pdf/DIMandCancer.pdf
And this link is full of links. http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

Phil,

I checked the link at qualitycounts (as I am very familiar with them) and noted this information listed on one of their first links:

On the other hand, studies have shown that DIM can actually induce aromatase activity with a two-fold increase [Toxicol Sci 2001 May; 61(1):40-8]" - The following are the two references for that statement: * 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and Diindolylmethanes Differentially Induce Cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R Human Adrenocortical Carcinoma Cells - Toxicol Sci 2001 May;61(1):40-8 - "DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 M; higher concentrations of DIM and many of its analogs were cytotoxic"

Also Phil, I think for the sake of fairness to the argument, you need to clarify the FULL position of all the factors with your situation. Your TRT protocol has been consisting - for several weeks - of 150 mg IM Test Cyp weekly combined with 500 IU of HcG three times a week (compare to standard protocol of 100 mg Test Cyp weekly and 250 IU of HcG twice a week). In addition you have had a history of elevated E2 levels with not only needing to use DIM but also semi-regular use of arimidex to keep E2 levels under control. A search of recent threads and semi-recent threads will confirm that.

So the "blame" TMG fior your increase in E2 is somewhat (more than somewhat) "unfair". And to credit dropping TMG for your E2 levels getting better - when at the same time frame you were dropping HcG back to twice a week and upping your arimidex levels to 1 mg daily is also "unfair". My bet is that if you returned to your former levels of HcG and dropped your arimidex dose back to previous levels, that your E2 would shoot straight back up again.

I am putting together a packet of infor (for another thread) on the particulars of TMG. Suffice it to say that TMG is a natural supplement, that our bodies (under optimal conditions) produce TMG, that TMG (in doses up to even 1 - 3 grams daily) is beneficial to our bodies. TMG does NOT significantly (if at all) increase E2 levels, TMG does NOT significantly (if at all) increase DHT levels, and TMG does not significantly (if at all) interfere with the working process of DIM. It's a natural substance that the body will produce on its own (except that food processing and over-cooking reduces a great many of the compounds the body uses to make TMG).

See Earthdog's posting at:
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134238430
300mg of DIM and 750mg of TMG did not cause my DHT levels to go up. In fact, it went down.

Anyway, it is only fair that ALL aspects of your situation be addressed rather than making it sound like it was simply the addition and / or subtraction of TMG.

Here's some quotes:

Doing 150 mgs. of Depo T shots every week had my Total T at 686 range for a young man my Dr. goes by this is 262 to 1593. After 15 shots doing 500 IU's 3 times a week my Total T went up to 1136. This is where I feel very good. So what this must mean is my Testis are now making T. My E2 is up to 50 this may or may not have anything to do with the higher T levels. I was doing a low dose of Indolplex/DIM. I knew it was going up I was breaking out in a rash. I find it odd that when my E2 levels go up I break out in a rash in the same spot... All of this goes away when I get my E2 down around 10 to 30. It is dam hard to keep it there. (July, 2005)

This was prior to ANY usage of TMG...

I started on TMG 8 days ago and have lost a lot of bloat or water. Plus I was doing one Indolplex/DIM when I started on TMG now my E2 went to low I had to stop taking the Indolplex/DIM for the last 2 days. I started back on it today and am taking one half a pill I am also cutting the TMG in half. (Sept, 2005)

Now the TMG and DIM was supposedly taking E2 levels too low?

I now feel my E2 came down so fast because of the HCG Medcohealth sent me. It was the Genetic for Novarel and my E2 came down because this HCG did not work so my T levels came down Big time. (Sept 2005)

It may work - try it doing TMG with DIM lowered my Total E from 400 to 135 range 29 to 127 pg/ml. But first if your not doing Zinc/Copper I would try this first. (November 2005)

I think you hit the nail on the head quality control. I am almost out of the Indolplex/DIM and getting more. Come to think of it I started having troubel on this last bottle. (November 2005 - Last week)

Just a week ago the theory was that it was possibly a bad batch of DIM... then it morphed into being the fault of the TMG?

I did good for a long time just taking Indolplex/DIM hell I was doing good on a half a pill. http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html But adding too high a dose of HCG drove my E2 nuts. Now today I am taking one Indolplex/DIM pill a day and a .25mg. of Arimidex to keep my e2 in the zone. (Nov. 2005)

Now it's from too high a dose of HcG...

It has to be the HCG after my 15th shot of 500 IU's 3 times a week my blood test doubled I was doing a 150 mg. shot and my levels were 650 after the 15th shot of HCG my levels went up to 1200. Now my DHT is over 2000 and my E2 is out of control. I am doing a lot of meds to keep my E2 in the zone. I take one 120 mg. pill of Indolplex/DIM and a .5 to 1 mg pill of Arimidex a day to keep my E2 in the zone. My Dr. lowered the HCG to 250 IU's 2 x's a day and my E2 is still giving me a hard time. (Nov. 2005)

Still having a lot of trouble with E2 taking .5 Arimidex 2 times a day morning and at bedtime plus still doing the Indolplex/DIM did a 250 IU shot yesterday and it drove my E2 nuts. I have stopped the TMG. I am due to do a shot tomorrow and Mon. Of HCG and am worried about doing this. I am doing a lot of stuff to keep my E2 down. (Nov. 2005)

Hell I am taking one 120 mg. tablet but also taking one mg of Arimidex a day. I lost a lot of weight and have been gaining muscle working out 3 days a week and now my T levels are so high it is driving up my E2. We cut back my Dose of HCG from 500 IU's 3 times a week to 250 IU's 2 times a week so I am hoping my E2 will level off. Most times I get by on one half a tablet at dinner time. If on my next Test a week from this Tue. my levels are not down and my E2 has not leveled off we are going to cut my dose of T down from 150 mgs a week to 125 mgs. (Nov 2005)

I am down to a 250 IU shot on Fri, Sun and Mon the Tue I get my T shot. And yes it is my E2. But this morning I did my 250 IU shot and so far I don't feel my E2 going up so maybe the coverson is down. I am not going back on the TMG until after my next blood test a week from his Tue. To see if it was what drove up my DHT so high. Any way I still free dam good to day the rash is gone so my E2 is down. And if the shot of HCG I did today was going to bring it up it would have done so by now. Still getting morning wood so I konw I am not to low on E2. I think the next thing will be to lower the T shot.

This could go on and on. And there is - believe me - absolutely NO intent to "bash" here. I am simply pointing out quotes on this very SAME situation that is being argued that somehow TMG is to blame for.

The fact is that there are / were several components that clearly could have caused the elevated E2 levels - or at least greatly contributed to them. The fact is that E2 elevations were a problem back in July, well before TMG was started. Just look at the factors involved in your situation that were probably causing E2 to elevate! Higher levels of Test Cyp. Higher levels (and more frequent doses) of Hcg, etc., etc. To blame it on the TMG is pretty simplistic when one steps back and looks at the whole picture. And then look at all of the factors that you influenced to reduce E2 levels (better than doubled your intake of arimidex - maybe quadrupled it?). Lowered your HcG levels by much more than half. Etcetra. But it was stopping the TMG??? Again, pretty simplistic when stepping back and taking a look at the big picture.

So personally, I think that there ends up being a huge controversy over the issue with TMG that never really needed to happen. Personally I am not 100% sure that it helps significantly with the control of E2 and estrogens (though your numbers apparently showed that at the very least it showed significant asistance with control of Total Es). But I am - based on my continuing research - just as equally convinced that TMG is not some sort of "bad guy" substance. It comes highly recommended by several anti aging expert and there seems to be no proof whatsoever that it is detrimental to issues of Men's Health in any way.


Larry

 

[stat1951]

I think that ND's explanation helps.

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7855&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

From this page I read:

The fact that very few doctors or athletes are aware of this critical factor, does not negate the fact that researchers have discovered ways to use natural phytochemicals from cruciferous plant extracts, Indole 3 carbinol-INC3 is one, Diindolylmethane-DIM is another. I encourage my clients to use at least two to four pounds of raw vegetables a day. Cooking or steaming denatures the qualities of DIM rendering it useless. The best way we have found to consume the necessary amount of DIM is to take a standard blender, not a juicer and blend up bok Choy, Napa Cabbage (chinese cabbage- a white leaved caggage, often seen in chop suey dishes at chinese restaurants etc) along with cucumbers, celery and pears, mixed with 20 oz of water.

Unfortunately that doesn't take into consideration the following:

Food plants species in the Cruciferae (Brassicaceae) family contain substances called goitrogen or glucosinolates, which probably play a role in the plant's defenses against predators and fungal attack. When eaten by animals or humans, glucosinolates can inhibit thyroid gland functions... Brassica species containing goitrogens include cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, rutabaga, kohlrabi, and the oilseeds, rapeseed and canola... Included in the category of soybean-related foods are soybeans themselves as welll as soy extracts and foodsmade from soy, including tofu. While soy foods share many common ingredients , it is the isoflavones in soy that have been associated with decreased thyroid hormone output... A second category of food associated with disruped thyrid hormone production id the Cruciferous or Brassica food family. Isothiocyanites are the category of substance in crucifers that have been associated with decreased thyroid function, which reduce thyroid function by blocking thyroid peroxidase, and also by disrupting messages that sent across the memebranes of thyroid cells.

Some types of foods are reputed to be goiterogenic, which means they create problems with thyroid hormones. Common foods with this reputation are members of the brassica family (which includes cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, cabbage and broccoli) and soyfoods. The brassica family causes problems with the metabolism of thyroid hormones only when they're consumed in high amounts such as when a person regularly drinks cabbage juice (Natural Toxins, 1995, vol. 3).

http://www.balancedlivingmag.com/2005/March%20-%20April%202005/Ask%20Doctor%20Edwards%200305.htm
Raw cruciferous vegetables (cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, kale, turnips, collard greens, mustard greens and rutabagas) are goitrigens, meaning that they can suppress the function of the thyroid. Fermenting (as in sauerkraut) or cooking them eliminates this problem.

I then read this part:

In addition, to manage and slow the conversion of testosterone to estrogen I use a transdermal chrysin (it works as a transdermal cream because it extends the half life, whereas in tablet its half life is so short it doesnt do much good) mixed in with DIM (to clear the downstream 16aOHE -hydroxyestrone).

Transdermal chrysin "might" work (I simply have no data on it), but not because it has a better half-life than oral tablets. Tests have repeatedly shown that oral chrysin does NOT survive the digestive process and that NONE of it gets into the bloostream, so it's half-life would be "zero".

I found a number of his recommendations "off base" to specifics that I have researched and could not recommend his positions.

Larry

I could better recommend the following overall sites:

http://www.westonaprice.org/index.html

http://www.theomnivore.com/

 

[HeadDoc]

Larry, if I recall Swale and Nick Delgado did complete the study mentioned and showed that they could successfully control the harmful isomers of estrogen thru DIM/I3C. The thread I posted came from a period when Swale and Nick were looking for subjects--as I recall the offer was quite attractive. I actually tried Nick's vegitable concoction and could not stomach it. After a couple of weeks, my stomach could just not handle all the raw veggies.

 

[SWALE]

DavidZ--Please ignore your paranoia for a second, and ask yourelf why on earth I would want to distort what you are writing? Hmm?

I was merely reporting what you, yourself told us. You took the TMG for a few days, thought it was somehow hurting you, quit taking it, and now want to trash it to everyone. How you could interpret a simple retelling of your own story as "distorting" things is kind of amazing.

BTW, did you reread the study posted in this thread yet? We are awaiting your response. AND who is "distorting" things. LOL.

Rather than continually trying to convince everyone you possess all kinds of knowledge you do not, how about actually answering a couple of these points?

Your health was not "going downhill rapidly" from the TMG. That is nonsense. And there is no logic in what you are trying to convince everyone of. You do not have a grasp of "the scientific method" that you claim Dr. Shippen would have had to spend hours personally teaching you. That was kind of a funny thing for you to say.

To let you know, when you "hold" a dosage it means to withdraw, or discontinue, it.

It IS possible, however, for there to have been some component in the OTC product you purchased which you are sensitive to. Again, TMG is a good, healthy, effective methyl group donor. And that is it. Lowering the levels of toxic 4-OHE is not going to hurt anyone. In fact, quite the opposite is most likely the case. How can less poison in your body be a bad thing?

I have been to lectures on TMG all over the world, by some of the top experts on the planet. This is the only report I have heard of any negative side effects.

 

[SWALE]

HeadDoc--It can take a year to get homocysteine levels down, even with the best of supplementation. This may be because homocysteine is a biomarker for generalized inflammatory response.

What Mr. Delgado ignores is the massive amount of pesticides he injests in all those raw veggies, as he refuses to even wash them first.

We also have to be careful when taking in all those cruciferous vegetables as they contain substances known as goitrogens, which negatively affect thyroid function.

But, ya, I'm not eating raw broccoli any more either! I put down a lot of it for the first couple of months, and that was enough. Now I steam it. Lemon juice squeezed over the top, with salt and pepper, is just great.

 

[SWALE]

Gamer--Have you had your 4-OHE levels tested?

After reading through stat's post, I think he has provided the real reasons for your experience.

 

[SWALE]

1cc--I did not know that about TMG lowering fat and raising muscle in farm animals. I wonder what the mechanism is. Very interesting. Where did your quote come from?

 

[DavidZ]

There is no such thing as a "very very narrow" optimal range for E2. In fact, no such animal exists.

Well, there's another area where you disagree with Shippen.

Dosages of the OTC's we discuss here in this thread are titrated through urinary 24 hour labwork. NOT subjective benefit.

And another. He taught me to use blood tests and clinical response (i.e., how you feel).

There is no known mechanism whatsoever whereas TMG could cause erectile dysfunction.

As Phil pointed out, no one made any such claim.

Just one more dose of your typical hyperbole, which you repeatedly inject because you can't stomach anyone disagreeing with you.

The REAL question, as I see it, is whether I-3-C or DIM is best.

No, as I stated above, the real question is how best to control E2.

There is NO question, IMPO, of the positive healthful benefits of TMG.

That's not the question here.

The question is -- why would TMG interfere with Indolplex/DIM as reported by two senior posters here in this forum? If you could put your ego aside for a moment (and that's a very big if), you might try to think objectively, rather than defensively/offensively, and try to be help by answer this question, rather than bashing anyone who doesn't get the clinical results that you desire.

Frankly, there is a lot of nonsense being posted here...My fear is that the health of the good members of this Board may be damaged by this irresponsible bravado.

Franly, the nonsense started when you turned the discussion into a personal attack with your bravado.

 

[SWALE]

You are misinterpreting what Dr. Shippen is saying. It might be a better idea to actually learn of what you speak than to try to attack someone who knows what he is talking about for trying to explain it to you. I have told you this several times, and still you carry on.

You did not claim you used lab tests with respect to 4-OHE levels following TMG administration. Can you point to anywhere in your posts you report of 4-OHE levels? Or am I missing something? THAT is the scientific method.

BTW, still rereading the study posted here? Come on, DavidZ, we are all STILL waiting.

As stat has so elequently pointed out, Gamer's subjective report was, unfortunately, nullified. He was inducing all manner of changes in his hormone levels, while blaming a negative subjective side effect on the TMG. Even YOU should have been able to figure that one out. Instead, you continue to try to use his experience as proof of your own nonsense.

How best to control Estrogens IS the question regarding the comparative superiority of either I-3-C or DIM. Can't you even read? How silly are you willing to get?

You just have such a bad attitude. You are always trying to claim you are so buddy-buddy with Dr. Shippen, which everyone knows is nonsense (but still misinterpreting nearly everything he says). You act as if you can lean on him to back you up. LOL. And you are always trying to sound like such an expert, when you have no idea what you are talking about. To top it off, you try to bash me for pointing out the folly in your positions. You just cannot wait to argue and cause trouble.

You bring this on yourself. It's one thing to be wrong. But it is a completely different matter to think you are qualified to argue this--and in such a nasty, distasteful manner--with someone who does this for a living. Just another self-professed "Mesage Board Guru" who has no idea what he talking about. Maybe you would act differently if you weren't hiding behind your computer monitor, I don't know. But you remind me of a guy who used to go by the name of "Fonz". We vets of the boards are now shaking our heads in agreement--and a shudder.

If you have one shred of integrity, your next post will address your claim that I posted a mistruth regarding that study. And a subsequent apology. We are all STILL waiting...

 

[HeadDoc]

gentleman, there has been some interesting material and debate on this thread. If we can avoid any ad hominum, perhaps we can resolve the issues.