My (Not So Good) Experience With TMG

[ciobl]

oh brother

never seen anybody with so much affinity, comprehension and comradeship than you two

 

[1cc]

1cc--I did not know that about TMG lowering fat and raising muscle in farm animals. I wonder what the mechanism is. Very interesting. Where did your quote come from?

I found it at www.beyond-a-century.com under their description of the product. Just scroll down the link page:

http://www.easycart.net/BeyondACenturyInc./Amino_Acids_Single_M-Z.html

 

[stat1951]

Larry, if I recall Swale and Nick Delgado did complete the study mentioned and showed that they could successfully control the harmful isomers of estrogen thru DIM/I3C. The thread I posted came from a period when Swale and Nick were looking for subjects--as I recall the offer was quite attractive. I actually tried Nick's vegitable concoction and could not stomach it. After a couple of weeks, my stomach could just not handle all the raw veggies.

HeadDoc!

LOL

I can just imagine!!! Getting through a couple of weeks in itself must have been something!

I was getting a slight amount of nausea just in reading about the formula and imagining it... all those varied cabbage family veggies and then (I believe) also pears???



Larry

 

[smitty4]

That's not the question here.

The question is -- why would TMG interfere with Indolplex/DIM as reported by two senior posters here in this forum? If you could put your ego aside for a moment (and that's a very big if), you might try to think objectively, rather than defensively/offensively, and try to be help by answer this question, rather than bashing anyone who doesn't get the clinical results that you desire.

As stat1951 pointed out, pmgammer18 has changed multiple variables at the same time. As a result, to claim that his experience is evidence that TMG is somehow interfering with his Indolplex/DIM is a VERY hard position to defend at best.

By the way...how does one become a senior poster? I am not trying to be flippant here. I am honestly not sure.

As Phil pointed out, no one made any such claim.

Just one more dose of your typical hyperbole, which you repeatedly inject because you can't stomach anyone disagreeing with you.

I could be wrong, but I thought SWALE was responding to your assertions that morning wood was a method for one to determine the proper dosage of Indolplex/DIM. Since you had mentioned using this method and indicated that TMG was "interfering" with your Indolplex/DIM, one could naturally draw the conclusion that part of your assertion was that the addition of TMG was causing your morning wood to disappear. Granted you mention that there are other symptoms that help you in your determination of E2 levels, but morning wood was one of the things you had mentioned as being a way of monitoring things.

Speaking of using morning wood as a means of determining whether or not someone's E2 levels are in the appropriate range, I have a question. Can't CHANGING someone's levels cause a temporary increase in libido...regardless of which direction the levels are moving? In other words...can't the MOVEMENT in E2 levels by itself cause the morning wood?

 

[SWALE]

Yes.

 

[cpeil2]

By the way...how does one become a senior poster? I am not trying to be flippant here. I am honestly not sure.

I think you automatically become one after a certain number of posts . . . no other qualification. So it doesn't carry a whole lot of cachet.

 

[smitty4]

That's what I thought.

 

[DSA]

We also have to be careful when taking in all those cruciferous vegetables as they contain substances known as goitrogens, which negatively affect thyroid function.

Swale, maybe I should have posted a topic change, but was curious if those goitrogens affect the function of the thyroid gland producing hormone, or affect the hormones action within cells. Where I am heading with this is the question of whether or not gotrogens are a concern for those who have no thryroid gland and get their hormone through supplementation.

 

[pmgamer18]

This is out of control I never attacked TMG I posted that I was on it for 6 weeks and my DHT went over 2000 and my E2 went up. Larry has a way of taking what one says and using it against them. Comes from working in law enforcement. He is not trying to bash me but makes my words sound like I am an idiot. My Dr. lowered my HCG because of my E2 and DHT levels on my last test and told me to stop the TMG to see what happens. We are all not the same TMG made me feel off from the first day I took it. I is like I posted the only thing that I did was add TMG to my Treatment and this last test came back bad. After being on HCG this long I am sure that if it was the dose it would have showed up a long time ago. David thanks for posting that you did not do good on TMG also. I never put the two together but felt it was the only thing I added to my Treatment and doing this caused me problems.
Larry it is good to see you have so much time on your hands to come up with that mess.
I don't feel bad about what people say about me I could care less. I am not here to fight and bicker over he said they said. It is about helping men that are sick with low T. Not who is right and who is wrong.

 

[SWALE]

Phil--I do not think anyone thinks anything but that you are a good Bro.

I also think Larry was taking the time to help illuminate the situation for you, and us.

If the timeline is correct in the way Larry described your situation, then TMG within almost certainty did not have anything to do with your negative symptoms. There was just too much else going on.

You have a very sensitive system, probably a combination of hypo-and hyper- sensitivities.

 

[pmgamer18]

Hard to say going in for a blood test tomorrow and will see in 2 weeks. I was feeling on the down side this morning but it was a day to do HCG shot 250 IU's and it brought me back up. I do my T shot tomorrow after my blood test. So lowering my Dose of HCG did not make me crash. My E2 has leveled off also no need to take Arimidex now for 4 days.

 

[SWALE]

Good!

If you want to, have a 24 hour urinary hormone panel done. There is a sticky here for a lab that does an excellent job, and it's amazingly inexpensive.

 

[DavidZ]

David thanks for posting that you did not do good on TMG also. I never put the two together but felt it was the only thing I added to my Treatment and doing this caused me problems.

You're welcome, Phil.

 

[stat1951]

Phil--I do not think anyone thinks anything but that you are a good Bro.

I also think Larry was taking the time to help illuminate the situation for you, and us.

If the timeline is correct in the way Larry described your situation, then TMG within almost certainty did not have anything to do with your negative symptoms. There was just too much else going on.

You have a very sensitive system, probably a combination of hypo-and hyper- sensitivities.

Phil - and SWALE...

RE: I also think Larry was taking the time to help illuminate the situation for you, and us.

Yes, that was exactly ALL that I was doing. There wa a conclusion being made that did not fit the specifics of what was going on, that's all that was being pointed out.

Larry


P.S. Yes, Phil, it is very nice to have all of that time on my hands... all that time from being a disability retired cop, on a full IOD disability (IOD - injuries on duty related)... with "all of this time on my hands". It's funny how nine injury related surgeries over the years, including two neck (spinal) surgeries over my last four years, will force you out early and give one "all this time"... (Fortunately time that will allow me to go spend two weeks at the NIH Hospital in Bethesda, Md where they will being doing extensive testing to try and find out what is going on with an adrenal gland tumor and a hypercortisolism condition that created my particular version of hypogonadism. In fact, hypogonadism is about halfway down the list of concerned symptoms - well, halfway down my doctor's list... it is at the TOP of my list!).

You indicated "I don't feel bad about what people say about me I could care less"... who said anything bad about you? I simply posted quotes of your own previous postings - some very recently ones, ones that showed a multitude of possibilities for your condition, not simply a TMG answer. This was not ANY person talking about you... these were quotes of YOU talking about yourself... Like you said, "It is about helping men that are sick with low T. Not who is right and who is wrong."

I am very sorry that you decided to take your indicated interpretation on my posting, as that was not my intent. as SWALE said, I do not think anyone thinks anything but that you are a good Bro., I think that is absolutely true... and that it includes myself. I have posted with you frequently offering you encouragement, advise, and, yes, my prayers. If my encouragement, advice (and reminders when deemed appropriate) are considered unwanted, that's cool... I'll still keep you in my prayers, ok?

 

[SWALE]

Yes, you are truly well respected here, Phil. And you are quoted on other Forums, too.

I was actually thinking about you while sitting in a deer hunting blind this weekend. I am just getting into a very exciting new book the makers of Androgel bought for me ($160--WHEW!), on receptors and their actions. Well, I read all I could, in addition to simply enjoying sitting in the woods and thinking--and falling asleep constantly because I forgot to bring my thyroid medication with me.

 

[ciobl]

Yes, you are truly well respected here, Phil. And you are quoted on other Forums, too.

pm wish you good too. just bear with us you're a good bro.

David you are a good bro too your primer has the highest most frequently visited rating on the whole meso board.

 

[ciobl]

your specific questions along with pm experiences addressing tmg addition followed by unexpected consequences on your regimen undeniably offer an intelligent contributional value to hrt.
very little is known nonetheless with a never ending endless scientifical data that by trial and error have brought us to inconclusive questions about the supplementation's efficacy.
in this case empirical facts brought us over here in an attempt to review such consequences that impacted personal observations with tmg addition but since such observations on a formula constantly undergoing medical trials it becomes an irrevocably conclusion to reach a final decision over such abstract scientifical data.
the antagonistic views
overwhelmingly
expressed with a certain degree of medical quackery craft should not solely reach a conclusion based on abstract scientifical data over empirical facts that started the thread with the addition of tmg to dim formulations. It becomes an inconclusive decision furthermore to determine a solution since the empiric observations to consequences after the tmg addition to a formula undergoing numerous medical trials variably offer a chance of fruitful resolution specially on a scientific level that must apply the same medical quackery interpretational craft as a science to any empirical fact.

 

[DavidZ]

David you are a good bro too your primer has the highest most frequently visited rating on the whole meso board.

Thanks, ciobl. Where do you see that statistic?

 

[stat1951]

pm wish you good too. just bear with us you're a good bro.

David you are a good bro too your primer has the highest most frequently visited rating on the whole meso board.

Ciobl,

RE: your primer has the highest most frequently visited rating on the whole meso board.

That was a very nice statement, but actually incorrect.

The far right column of the forum is titled "views" and records how many viewings that thread has received. The top three "most frequently visited ratings" posted clearly are the stickies of SWALE (Labs I Run and TRT: A Recipe for Success and one on Zinc) and then they go down from there, with Phil (gamer) having number four and then SWALE with number five and then HeadDoc with number six (if you click on the word "View" it will sort them on order)...

And those are just the stickies.

If you go to the regular posting's, you will find several posting that greatly surpassed the DZ Primer's (which was actually one topic but broke down into two sections)...

A Great Source Of Info (SWALE), Injecting testosterone subcutaneously (frankwhardy), SWALE is Retiring From this Board (SWALE), Clomid as long term TRT (Mayo55 - or whoever he really is)... and of course the infamous (and thankfully now closed-off) "SWALE Gone From Another Board" - which had well over 2,000 views prior to it being closed off - or so I was told...

And as far as being the whole Meso Board, well, Men's Health is only one section of the whole Meso Board... See:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/

As you can see, the Men's Health Section has had 14,000+ postings (it doesn't break down to "Views" on that page) while - unfortunately in my opinion - the Anaboloc Forum has over 82,000 posts.

If you go to their opening page and sort the threads by "views", you will see that they have postings over there with threads that simply dominate ANY views at the Men's Health Section of MESO forum.... See:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/forums/steroid-forum.8/

Views on their stickies of over 10,000 and over 11, 000 and over 16,000...

It's a real shame the more one reflects on it - and wonders how many of those individuals will (over the years) pop up at the Men's Health section prematurely now in search for legitimate TRT due to AAS damage done???

Larry

 

[stat1951]

4-OHE levels and TMG connections...

Gamer--Have you had your 4-OHE levels tested?

After reading through stat's post, I think he has provided the real reasons for your experience.

The term "4-OHE levels" sparked a thought and some recall of previous research I had done...

Not sure if you are aware of a Doctor David Zava, but he spoke at an anti aging conference in Las Vegas in the Winter of 1998. Interestingly, Dr Shippen also spoke at that same conference.

A little background on Dr. Zava:

Dr.David Zava is a biochemist with extensive experience in breast cancer research and internationally known speaker on breast cancer and hormone replacement therapy... During the past 25 years Dr. Zava has published extensively on basic and clinical research relating to the effects of hormonal balance on breast cancer... Dr. Zava earned his Ph.D. in biochemistry at the University of Tennessee in 1974 and did his post-doctoralwork at the University of Texas. He did conventional research with breast cancer cell lines at the University of Texas, San Antonio, and became proficient in performing the receptor assay to determine whether breast tumors are estrogen positive or negative. This is information that can determine a breast cancer patient's course of treatment... Dr. Zava was hired by the Ludwig Institute at the University of Bern, Switzerland, where he headed a large international clinical study investigating the effectiveness of chemotherapy and Tamoxifen... For both breast and prostate cancers,he ties together the importance of hormonal balance and the biologicalorigins of cancer, providing a realistic, simple and rational strategy for prevention based on intelligent choices of natural (bioidentical) hormone therapies, healthy foods and exercise.

Anyway, I noted these comments from the anti aging conference at that time:

Multiple hormonal abnormalities are usually seen in hormone-dependent cancers. David Zava, Ph.D., pointed out that breast cancer patients often consume a diet heavy in refined carbohydrates, which leads to excess insulin and obesity. Excess insulin induces an abnormally large number of estrogen receptors in the breast tissue, while the excess body fat keeps producing extra estrogens... Dr. Zava explained that estradiol itself is not carcinogenic. It is one of its metabolites-4-hydroxyestrone-that is potentially mutagenic. 4-hydroxyestrone can either be methylated and thus rendered harmless, or it can be further oxidized to quinones, which can damage DNA. Pollutants, stress hormones and the easily oxidizable polyunsaturated fats (from sources such as corn oil) lead to increased production of quinones. Protection is provided by methylating agents (such as TMG, folic acid & vitamin B12)...

As pointed out in the following separate study (which has been posted a couple of times previously with minimal comment):

2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and diindolylmethanes differentially induce cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

Sanderson JT, Slobbe L, Lansbergen GW, Safe S, van den Berg M. - Research Institute for Toxicology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80176, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands. Published in Toxicol Sci. 2001 May;61(1):40-8.

...DIM and various structural analogs were examined in H295R cells for effects on 3 cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes involved in estrogen synthesis and/or metabolism: CYP1A1, CYP1B1, and CYP19 (aromatase)... DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 microM; higher concentrations of DIM and many of its analogs were cytotoxic... DIM (3 microM) significantly increased mRNA levels for all three CYPS: DIM analogs with substitutions on the 5 and 5' position (3 microM) induced aromatase and EROD activity, together with mRNA levels of CYP1A1, 1B1, and 19; analogs that were substituted on the central carbon of the methane group showed little or no inductive activity toward the CYPS: In conclusion, DIM and several of its analogs appear to induce CYPs via multiple yet distinct pathways in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

The CYP1B1 enzyme makes 4-hydroxyestrone, which, like 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone, is genotoxic, mutagenic and procarcinogenic. (A quote from SWALE - LOL)

Anyway...

The way estrogen is metabolized in your body may also be a factor... There are three pathways by which estrogen can be metabolized in your body. They have long, complicated names, so let's just call them the 2-OH, 4-OH, and the 16-OH pathways. 2-OH is called the "good estrogen" because if your estrogen is metabolized down that road it seems to prevent cancer. 4-OH and 16-OH seem to be cancer-causing pathways. In one study (for example), women who developed Breast Cancer had lots of 16-OH and very little 2-OH... Methylation is a process by which chemical methyl groups are connected to your DNA. Methylation is important because it is a process that repairs and stabilizes DNA. Methylation is also important because cancer cells seem to have a lower level of methylation than normal cells. Methlyation also helps make more of the 2-OH "good estrogen" and makes "bad estrogens" like 16-OH less active. Nutrients such as... Folate, Vitamin B12, Zinc, a form of Betaine called Trimethylglycine... help in the methylation process.

Some additional information regarding positive effects of methylation:

To maintain a strong, healthy body, especially when supplementing with testosterone, it is necessary to continuously detoxicate normal metabolic poisons including harmful hormonal metabolites. Furthermore, it is absolutely necessary to minimize the accumulation of environmental chemicals that are poisoning us. Environmental estrogen mimics are the leading cause of the rising rates of prostate cancer in men and breast cancer in women.
A great many of these harmful chemical can be detoxicated at the cellular level and by the liver for excretion in urine, feces and sweat using the following array of chemical supplements:

* Sulfation: glutathione precursors (glutamic acid, cysteine and glycine), methyl sulfonyl methane (MSM)....
* Methylation: ...trimethylglycine (TMG), dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE)...
* Glucuronidation: ...calcium-D-glucarate.
* Acetylation: acetic acid (vinegar).
* Acylation: glycine, glutamine, taurine.

Also...

From the book: "The Hormone of Desire: The Truth about Testosterone, Sexuality and Menopause" by Susan Rako, M.D., Three Rivers Press....

I3C at 400 mg per day will reduce estrogen dominance. Also take: ...B12, Folic Acid, SAM-e or Trimethylglycine (TMG). These nutritional factors promote methylation of 4-Catechol-Estrone to a benign form.

Finally...

There is an important footnote to this wonderful news about TMG. Many life extension practitioners have been taking massive doses of vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) because it also neutralizes the pro-oxidant homocysteine, converting it to the important antioxidant cystathione. The August 25,1983 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine documented cases in which severe sensory nerve damage occurred in humans as a result of using very large daily dosages of B-6 for periods of 4-40 months. If one is trying to keep homocysteine levels down, it is better to take lower doses of B-6 supplements and use TMG... to assist in neutralizing homocysteine.

Larry