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Anabolic Steroids
Myth Buster - Prolactin Tren/Deca
- Thread starter Sworder
- Start date
I've seen some studies linking pergolilde and cabergoline to leaky heart valves. I also know that caber is an ergot-based drug. I've never heard of any LE or Military folks popping for LSD whilst on caber but the possibility of that alone would scare me.
DonkeyKong
New Member
^^^They dont test for lsd...
Anyways Ive bben reading all kinds of "bro-science" info since researching caber/prami ect...I have heard about gyno caused from GH and gh peptides(like mk-677).Supposedly due to prolactin.Ive also heard caber/prami block gh conversion to igf and/or dec gh itself.Now Im readin they INC levels of gh?Bit confused on this right now.
As far as personal experience I have run test with Npp and nolva on hand.When symtoms started I used nolva and gyno got WORSE.Im 99% sure the nolva was legit(pharm grade)...
Then I read NPP can cause gyno through prolactin.I didnt order caber just discontinued NPP and kept the test(750 mg/wk) and ran letro at very small dose...gyno disappeared and symptoms went way.Discontinued letro and ran test by itself with small eod letro dose and had no issues.I havent used a 19-nor since but if I do I plan on having caber or prami on hand,I also am still searching on the truth about cabers(or prami) effects on GH levels or IGF....
Anyways Ive bben reading all kinds of "bro-science" info since researching caber/prami ect...I have heard about gyno caused from GH and gh peptides(like mk-677).Supposedly due to prolactin.Ive also heard caber/prami block gh conversion to igf and/or dec gh itself.Now Im readin they INC levels of gh?Bit confused on this right now.
As far as personal experience I have run test with Npp and nolva on hand.When symtoms started I used nolva and gyno got WORSE.Im 99% sure the nolva was legit(pharm grade)...
Then I read NPP can cause gyno through prolactin.I didnt order caber just discontinued NPP and kept the test(750 mg/wk) and ran letro at very small dose...gyno disappeared and symptoms went way.Discontinued letro and ran test by itself with small eod letro dose and had no issues.I havent used a 19-nor since but if I do I plan on having caber or prami on hand,I also am still searching on the truth about cabers(or prami) effects on GH levels or IGF....
Sworder
Member
There should be a study in this thread on caber lowering IGF levels.
I had pretty much the same thing happen and stupidly over 20 years more than once. It was a cycle of test/NPP and Varthe last time. Nolva was like pouring gasoline on the gyno fire. the only think that helped was an AI. Caber is good for making the wood work is about all as far as I can tell. I never got gyno from test. It was always a nandrolone. Whatever it is about nandrolone it does not like my nips. It has progestogenic activity and it kills the dick. Both of those suggest prolactin issues. Thing is when you measure it it usually comes up normal although I have seen it elevated.
Sworder
Member
Funny that no lab work will support your "bro science."
No need to be insulting. I have seen prolactin up after cycle with nandrolones. And my post was just my experience. And if you read my post you will see that the AI worked to elevate the problem, which supports the idea that estrogen is a major culprit, which aligns with your thinking based on your previous post. But rarely are things as simple as one component in biology so don't think just because you point a finger at estrogen that's the whole story. It's easy to hit the broscience button since scientific research that specifically targets our questions is rarely done as it's unethical to use multiple drugs at multiple times therapeutic levels. So really you can push the broscience all you want. By definision even your suppositions are "broscience". All of this is best guess based on observation and whatever can be gleaned or extrapolated based on the science that's out there. So which one are you against? Science all together or observation or personal experience? Or maybe you're just against what doesn't fit what's on your mind?
Sworder
Member
I never stated I am against science and believe my suppositions are congruent with the available science as well as personal experiences which include empirical data and is extrapolated intelligently. E.g. "Both of those suggest prolactin issues." had you done lab work alongside it that would make your personal experience more credible. Personal assumptions based off parroted information is quickly pushed aside in my opinion. What data do you have to show basing Nandrolone to have progestinic activity and how do you correlate that to your experience with a "limp dick?" Do you believe that maybe nandrolone has a competitive inhibition on the AR and since it has low "androgenic" activity during the expression it may contribute to that?
25 years of experience and basic physiology. The data concerning increased prolactin has happened over the years in friends of mine. I do not have nor would I post their labs from now or years ago. You can dismiss almost anything I guess. You've been around a long time. I'm surprised you haven't made the connection between ED and nandrolone. I can offer some basics. Nanadrolones are used as progestins in research. A quick search of the literature will reveal this. They will stimulate the progesterone receptor. There is some well known physiology that is consistent with what many nandrolone users have expereinced
Interestingly, there is a neuroendorcine link between dopamine secretion, progestins and prolactin secretion in the brain. In the arcuate nucleus of the hypothalamus there is a group of dopaminonergic neurons that are responsive to progesterones. Progenstins bind to neurons in this region and reduces dopamine secretion locally leading to increased prolactin secretion and decreased secretion of GnRH (and thus LH and FSH) into the hypophysial portal blood. This series of physiologic responses may explain the loss of sexual function in nandrolone and trenbolone users.
As stated above, progesterone signaling is correlated with increased levels of prolactin secretion from the anterior pituitary gland. Progesterone and progestins are strong suppressors of GnRH and therefore LH and FSH. Therefore, the presence of progestins like nandrolone or trenbolone could be expected to be strong HPTA suppressors in the male user. Prolactin is negatively regulated by dopamine and positively regulated by thyrotropin-releasing factor and other neuropeptides.
If this is new to you I can probably suggest an online physiology textbook.
Sworder
Member
This is all dismissed as you guessed it, did the gentlemen take an AI? Was their estrogen elevated as well as their prolactin? You never stated their prolactin was high via lab results however implied it.
Why are you lumping trenbolone and nandrolone together? Trenbolone is a highly androgenic steroid, which for me at least increases my sex drive A LOT.
Progesterone signaling is correlated with increased prolactin secretion is your statement, but progesterone has a different expression on the PR just like nandrolone's expression while attached to the AR(and PR) is different than the expression of trenbolone on the AR(and PR.) Why are you stating progesterone now as progesterone as mentioned has a completely different expression? Just like a SERM has a different expression on the ER than estrogen does? They both attach to the same receptor but have a completely different expression...
Edit: Bill Roberts posted an article about competitive inhibition and me personally I believe that competitive inhibition takes place on the AR as well and there was a long thread I started to write which addressed this. Basically, if you have dbol/test/tren in your cycle, they will saturate the ARs at a high enough dose, is it beneficial to have more compounds in the system or will they simulate competitive inhibition and unfortunately dbol may take the place of trenbolone on the AR leading to a weaker expression...
Also, this is not new to me via word of mouth or so called broscience, I am trying to find out if you beliefs are based on word of mouth or scientific literature. Most opinions are based off beliefs from my experience.
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Whoremoans
Member
I personally believe that tren does have a way of causing gyno flair ups that are unrelated to estrogen. I don't think its prolactin induced but considering tren doesn't aromatize but is still active at the estrogen receptor I think it's possible. It definitely continued to cause gyno flair ups while my estro was borderline crashed. It being a progestin (progesterone not prolactin) being a female hormone also can't help its gyno inducing properties.
Sworder
Member
I am extremely sensitive to gyno and running trenbolone alone has never caused any gyno flare ups. But to cut the anecdotal evidence out, where did you find that trenbolone attaches to the estrogen receptor? Also, as mentioned earlier, just because the hormone attaches to a receptor doesn't mean the expression is the same. SERMs are a good example of that, they do not have the same expression as estrogen on the ER.
What is a progestin that causes gyno inducing properties? Trenbolone?
The etiology of gyno is estrogen, point blank and no ifs, ands or buts.
Whoremoans
Member
I think you're missing the point that I'm just sharing purely anecdotal information. Personal experience. Also never said a progestin causes gyno. Just said it was a female hormone and couldn't help. Running pharma grade adex at .5mg every day on a moderate dose of prop and tren should've halted all gyno symptoms but it didn't. I don't have an article or what the fuck ever backing what I'm saying. Just some personal experience.
Sworder
Member
Okay, gotcha. This is why anecdotal evidence is easily dismissed. I state one thing, you state another and nobody has labs to prove anything. And you had testosterone in the cycle which would be another variable to consider, is it the testosterone(that converts to estrogen) or is it the trenbolone(that doesn't convert to e2?) I would think by logical reasoning the testosterone is the culprit. Testosterone will aromatase and trenbolone will not. Testosterone has a lot of scientific evidence to prove it can induce gyno, trenbolone has 0 scientific evidence to do so and the etiology of gynecomastia has never been from elevated prolactin while estrogen is suppressed. Nor has any data regarding these drugs even shown to elevate prolactin directly.
The only reasoning or backing is from peptide companies selling caber(which drains your GH/IGF1 levels opposite of the purpose of peptides are.) And from people parroting the prolactin induced gyno theory. There has been, and in this thread as well labs done showing that prolactin wasn't elevated while taking a 19-nor.
weighted chinup
Well-known Member
Many assume this to be true, but it's not always the case.
Just because an individual is running an aggressive AI dose or lowers E2 does not mean that you will eliminate all possibilities of gyno. Gyno can still occur even with the use of an AI. The ideal treatment for gyno is a SERM like nolva or raloxifen.
OK, I think what is important to you is that you feel you are correct. I have offered my thoughts on the subject. If you want to post the article by Bill Robert then maybe we can discuss it. Bottom line is the physiology I posted you have not refuted. Any good physiology textbook will have it. You state that nandrolone has a different expression than progesterone. I'm not sure what you mean by expression. I assume you mean gene expression pattern. So the onus is on you. How does the experssion pattern differ so fundamentally that you feel it does not deliver any progestogenic signal at all? This especially scince the side effect matches the hypothesis. Example: prolactin release in the arcute nucleus subsequent to orgasm leads to the refractory period where erection is not possible. Very similar to symptoms of ED experienced by deca users that are prone to it's side effects. Adding in cabergoline relieves the symptoms and erection is possible. As a D2 agonist, which reduces prolactin secretion in the arcute nucleus, this relief is the expected result if the posited situation is the cause. i have posited an explaination that is scientifically consistent. Now you can pose a different scenario that explains eleviatino of symptoms better. But you cannot deny the situation since so may experience this problem.
Go to Pubmed and key word search nandrolone and progestin. Don't just buy into some blurb from Bill Roberts that may or may not be correct. You will have a few hundred hits. Then scroll through and you will see that it is used in a panel of steroids to study progesterone signaling. That is fact.
You have my thoughts on this.
This statement makes no sense. You are mixing and comparing drugs from different classes and not providing any support for any statement. There are reasons why nandrolone is considered a progestin. Because it has progestogenic action.
Sworder
Member
Yes, you do not understand the word expression. SERMs attach to the Estrogen Receptor but PREVENTS/REVERSES GYNO, estrogen attaches to the Estrogen Receptor but CAUSES GYNO. Same receptor, the estrogen receptor, but a completely different expression. So just because tren/nandrolone goes on the same receptor as progesterone, that doesn't mean their expression is the same. That is the missing picture. Yes, I can support that statement with scientific evidence.
I can also support that progesterone and trenbolone/nandrolone have a different expression on the PR, well that has actually been stated in this thread as well. Progesterone increases prolaction, the gentleman's labs didn't show increased prolactin. Different results, same receptor.
I don't feel the need to be correct, I want to be at the edge of scientific evidence and current knowledge so if you want to help me learn more. Please post studies or lab data from people that got elevated prolactin from tren alone, or that the etiology has changed or there is a sub-category of gyno that is induced by prolactin.. Also, wouldn't it make sense that there was a SPRM that would be used to reverse prolactin induced gyno?? There is no such thing... Because your statement isn't true nor does it exist. You can argue that God exists, I cannot refute with scientific data as there is a god, the lack of studies showing god exists are 0. But that doesn't make it logical to argue he exists...
Whoremoans
Member
But if that is true then sworders claim that estrogen is the only cause of gyno would have to be false correct? By his logic if E2 is under control there should be zero possibility of gyno.
Cite your evidence.
19-nor does not equal progestin. If you have evidence from the scientific literature showing the activity of 19-nor equals progestin, I want to see it.
