MESO-Rx

Anabolic Steroids

Myth Buster - Prolactin Tren/Deca

CensoredBoardsSuck said:
Cite your evidence.



19-nor does not equal progestin. If you have evidence from the scientific literature showing the activity of 19-nor equals progestin, I want to see it.
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I know for a fact william llewellyn refers to 19-nor steroids as progestins in his book anabolics. Not sure if that qualifies as any sort of proof but the man seems to know what he's talking about.
 
Whoremoans said:
I know for a fact william llewellyn refers to 19-nor steroids as progestins in his book anabolics. Not sure if that qualifies as any sort of proof but the man seems to know what he's talking about.
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It's only proof if it's backed with EVIDENCE. I don't care what Llewellyn himself says or thinks or whether the man seems to know what he's talking about, it's what he can prove that matters.
 
Sworder said:
Yes, you do not understand the word expression. SERMs attach to the Estrogen Receptor but PREVENTS/REVERSES GYNO, estrogen attaches to the Estrogen Receptor but CAUSES GYNO. Same receptor, the estrogen receptor, but a completely different expression. So just because tren/nandrolone goes on the same receptor as progesterone, that doesn't mean their expression is the same. That is the missing picture. Yes, I can support that statement with scientific evidence.
I can also support that progesterone and trenbolone/nandrolone have a different expression on the PR, well that has actually been stated in this thread as well. Progesterone increases prolaction, the gentleman's labs didn't show increased prolactin. Different results, same receptor.

I don't feel the need to be correct, I want to be at the edge of scientific evidence and current knowledge so if you want to help me learn more. Please post studies or lab data from people that got elevated prolactin from tren alone, or that the etiology has changed or there is a sub-category of gyno that is induced by prolactin.. Also, wouldn't it make sense that there was a SPRM that would be used to reverse prolactin induced gyno?? There is no such thing... Because your statement isn't true nor does it exist. You can argue that God exists, I cannot refute with scientific data as there is a god, the lack of studies showing god exists are 0. But that doesn't make it logical to argue he exists...
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Yes the gentleman, but not all gentlemen, showed increased prolactin. There can be local increases in hormone levels not observed in blood levels. Hormones can work that way. It's called paracrine signaling. Again your basic scientific knowledge is lacking. Secondly, I do not see that you understand your own use of the term expression. You have not clarified your use. Therefore you have no footing in your arguments if your goal is to be intellectually honest rather than try to bamboozle your friends on this board. I have provided a scientifically sound explanation for nandrolone induced impotence. You haven't offered an alternative explanation. You only offer insult. Where is your alternative explanation? Apparently you have none. You also do not understand how breast tissue develops. It is not simply induced by estrogen. It requires the presence of a series of hormones including estrogens, progesterones and prolactin produced in a specific temporal sequence and duration.

You do not even understand glynecomastia's causes. From the Textbook Endocrinology: an integrated approach chapter 6,

Causes:

Common (~>95%)
  • Age related (non-pathological):
    Neonatal - circulating estrogen action
    Pubertal - breast aromatase activity converting testosterone to estradiol (usually disappears after 2 years)
    Old age - decreased circulating androgen concentrations
  • Drugs including:
    Estrogens or estrogen precursors - e.g. testosterone
    Androgen antagonists - e.g. spironolactone, cime-tidine, marijuana, progestagens
    Prolactin stimulating agents - e.g. metoclopramide, sulpiride, phenothiazines, tricyclic antidepressants
From the same text chapter 6:

Gynecomastia refers to growth of mammary glands in males. This may result from changes in sex steroid production during sexual development or senescence, drugs that affect endogenous hormone production or action and genetic disorders linked with gonadal dysgenesis. Excess prolactin can also cause gynecomastia but most common is pseudo-gynecomastia due to the deposition of fat in the pectoral area. Causes of and treatment for gynecomastia are summarized in Boxes 6.27 and 6.28.
Arguing with you is pointless because you have no understanding of biology let alone endocrinology and physiology.

Arguing with you is pointless because you do not have a scientific basis to argue from. I suggest you put down the steroid guru articles and read a few scientific text books. Your bluster is just that. You offer no scientifically cogent alternative arguments to support your bluster.
 
glycomann said:
Yes the gentleman, but not all gentlemen, showed increased prolactin. There can be local increases in hormone levels not observed in blood levels. Hormones can work that way. It's called paracrine signaling. Again your basic scientific knowledge is lacking. Secondly, I do not see that you understand your own use of the term expression. You have not clarified your use. Therefore you have no footing in your arguments if your goal is to be intellectually honest rather than try to bamboozle your friends on this board. I have provided a scientifically sound explanation for nandrolone induced impotence. You haven't offered an alternative explanation. You only offer insult. Where is your alternative explanation? Apparently you have none. You also do not understand how breast tissue develops. It is not simply induced by estrogen. It requires the presence of a series of hormones including estrogens, progesterones and prolactin produced in a specific temporal sequence and duration.

You do not even understand glynecomastia's causes. From the Textbook Endocrinology: an integrated approach chapter 6,

Causes:

Common (~>95%)
  • Age related (non-pathological):
    Neonatal - circulating estrogen action
    Pubertal - breast aromatase activity converting testosterone to estradiol (usually disappears after 2 years)
    Old age - decreased circulating androgen concentrations
  • Drugs including:
    Estrogens or estrogen precursors - e.g. testosterone
    Androgen antagonists - e.g. spironolactone, cime-tidine, marijuana, progestagens
    Prolactin stimulating agents - e.g. metoclopramide, sulpiride, phenothiazines, tricyclic antidepressants
From the same text chapter 6:

Gynecomastia refers to growth of mammary glands in males. This may result from changes in sex steroid production during sexual development or senescence, drugs that affect endogenous hormone production or action and genetic disorders linked with gonadal dysgenesis. Excess prolactin can also cause gynecomastia but most common is pseudo-gynecomastia due to the deposition of fat in the pectoral area. Causes of and treatment for gynecomastia are summarized in Boxes 6.27 and 6.28.
Arguing with you is pointless because you have no understanding of biology let alone endocrinology and physiology.

Arguing with you is pointless because you do not have a scientific basis to argue from. I suggest you put down the steroid guru articles and read a few scientific text books. Your bluster is just that. You offer no scientifically cogent alternative arguments to support your bluster.
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Gene expression lol what else would I be talking about??
You sir, are the one not comprehending basic information, thanks for you time.
 
I have posed plenty of questions to you however you didn't respond nor understand my posts. You want me to explain expression when we are talking about receptor behavior and different drugs on receptors? That's rude and ignorant to me! Do your homework before discussing a topic.
 
Yes same with me NPP/TEST thinking it was the test took nolva getting worse took MORE nolva gyno was visible with a shirt on and hard.Letro shrunk it back to non existentance lol...I am wondering if adex or letro would help when on tren npp or even mk/677 wich I am on now while"off" all gear but have heard they can cause issue.And Now I dont want to take caber or prami as worried about dec in igf levels(though some say the opposite,most have said it dec gh conversion to igf)Ill read artilce poted back on this...QUOTE="glycomann, post: 1388093, member: 37143"]I had pretty much the same thing happen and stupidly over 20 years more than once. It was a cycle of test/NPP and Varthe last time. Nolva was like pouring gasoline on the gyno fire. the only think that helped was an AI. Caber is good for making the wood work is about all as far as I can tell. I never got gyno from test. It was always a nandrolone. Whatever it is about nandrolone it does not like my nips. It has progestogenic activity and it kills the dick. Both of those suggest prolactin issues. Thing is when you measure it it usually comes up normal although I have seen it elevated.[/QUOTE]
 
DonkeyKong said:
Yes same with me NPP/TEST thinking it was the test took nolva getting worse took MORE nolva gyno was visible with a shirt on and hard.Letro shrunk it back to non existentance lol...I am wondering if adex or letro would help when on tren npp or even mk/677 wich I am on now while"off" all gear but have heard they can cause issue.And Now I dont want to take caber or prami as worried about dec in igf levels(though some say the opposite,most have said it dec gh conversion to igf)Ill read artilce poted back on this...QUOTE="glycomann, post: 1388093, member: 37143"]I had pretty much the same thing happen and stupidly over 20 years more than once. It was a cycle of test/NPP and Varthe last time. Nolva was like pouring gasoline on the gyno fire. the only think that helped was an AI. Caber is good for making the wood work is about all as far as I can tell. I never got gyno from test. It was always a nandrolone. Whatever it is about nandrolone it does not like my nips. It has progestogenic activity and it kills the dick. Both of those suggest prolactin issues. Thing is when you measure it it usually comes up normal although I have seen it elevated.
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[/QUOTE]
Personally I don't really think caber or prami is going to make a difference. I think some people are just more prone to the additional sides than others.
 
Personally I don't really think caber or prami is going to make a difference. I think some people are just more prone to the additional sides than others.[/QUOTE]

I believe this too . Some guys are just really gyno prone . I dont ever get itchy nips or gyno no matter what I do . I take Prami w/ nor-19 drugs , but I dont really feel I need it . Just a lil Adex ...
 
Oregongearhead said:
Personally I don't really think caber or prami is going to make a difference. I think some people are just more prone to the additional sides than others.
Click to expand...

I believe this too . Some guys are just really gyno prone . I dont ever get itchy nips or gyno no matter what I do . I take Prami w/ nor-19 drugs , but I dont really feel I need it . Just a lil Adex ...[/QUOTE]
I ran pharm grade test at about 600-800mg for 10 weeks without any AI and didn't notice any gyno symptoms until about the last 2 weeks and into PCT, very slight symptoms. Now on tren and prop I've had gyno flair ups going crazy since the first week and I've been on pharm grade adex from day one. Everyone likes to talk like we're all affected the same way by these drugs but the reality is we are all different and will react different.
 
Whoremoans said:
Everyone likes to talk like we're all affected the same way by these drugs but the reality is we are all different and will react different.
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I agree, crack makes me very sleepy. It's good to use as a sleep aid. Pharmacokinetics don't have shit on me!
 
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Whoremoans said:
Reminds me of high school lol.
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Took one I think it was 200mg dxm tablet. Tasted so fucking horrible and the trip was uncomfortable but interesting. I would never take it again but it was interesting. When my friend was walking his legs didn't seem to belong to his upper body.
 
Sworder said:
Took one I think it was 200mg dxm tablet. Tasted so fucking horrible and the trip was uncomfortable but interesting. I would never take it again but it was interesting. When my friend was walking his legs didn't seem to belong to his upper body.
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I've dosed it between 500mg to a gram more times than I can remember. When I was younger I would do anything I could to be fucked up all the time though. Pretty stupid. I had awesome experiences with it and terrible ones too. The good trips usually involved weed the bad ones usually involved alcohol and other recs. There's no consistency with the stuff. Sometimes it's good sometimes it sucks.
 
Sworder said:
Took one I think it was 200mg dxm tablet. Tasted so fucking horrible and the trip was uncomfortable but interesting. I would never take it again but it was interesting. When my friend was walking his legs didn't seem to belong to his upper body.
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This explains a lot.
 
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