Need advice from the more experienced

[RThoads]

Here is a composite of info from me from various other boards—I will try to be as detailed as possible. I am new to this board (I am a member of a few other places) and have come here because I just want as much feedback from different sources as possible in order to get this right and get what I need.

I grew up in a very industrial area of the city with a lot of pollution and later in life I was working in a chemical lab with further exposure to solvents such as chloroform etc.

I have never run an AAS cycle.
I have done a few PH such as Androstenedione back when it was legal and available in stores but only a couple weeks of it tops.
I have run a small 2 week PCT using liquid tamoxifen research chem in the past because I seem to be prone to gyno.

My goals are to:
Live a healthy and full life with good energy, sexuality, and mood.
Build as much muscle and strength as possible.
Increase healing and recovery.
Preserve my fertility.


I am 36
5'9" 190lb @ ~18%BF
Been training for years without a good diet or lifestyle, and put in a very solid year and a half recently with total dedication to diet (clean bulk 6 meals a day all high quality protein and nutrient dense carb sources such as sweet potato broccoli asparagus etc) and never missed a planned workout, no drinking or smoking or even really going out -- clean and healthy to the max.
This resulted in a very noticeably improved body composition and strength, but not on the level it should be based upon my training knowledge, dedication, and consistency.

Training is fullbody 3x a week linear progression similar to the Starr/Madcow 5x5.
Work sets are at 315x3 for squat, 365x5 deadlift, 285x3 bench, 205x5 Pendlay Row.

supps:
Orange Triad Multi
Ubiquinol (CoQ10)
Ultra DHA (fish oil)
ALA
NAC
Milk Thistle
Tumeric
Gluthathione
Tribulus
Twinlabs Diet Fuel (forskolii and green tea)
C-1000 (now foods vitamin C)
vitamin D3 (4000 iu)
dymatize ALCAR
BCAA / Luecine
HMB
Glutamine
Creatine MonoHydrate
Whey
Casein

Diet is 5 – 6 meals a day based upon:
skim milk
Whole eggs
Steel cut oats
walnuts / almonds / pecans
Blueberries / raspberries / blackberries
Chicken breast
Round steak
Tuna
Asparagus
Broccoli
Brussel sprouts
Red/yellow/orange bell peppers
lots of hot sauces
Coconut oil
various other fish on occasion such as Salmon
Peanut butter
Greek yogurt
Cottage cheese

While I have enjoyed some gains, my energy levels in all areas of life, libido, mood, recovery, ability to heal from minor injuries, and body comp just were not where they should be.
I also see signs of gyno (doctor agreed it is gyno).
A few months ago I went to a general practitioner doc and he did blood work, test levels were low (free test was about 7 ng/dL) and so he refereed me to an endo.

Below are the latest result from the tests the specialist ran:
Testosterone total:
297 ng/dL (reference 348-1197)

Free Testosterone (direct):
6.3 pg/mL (reference 8.7-25.1)

TSH:
2.610 uIU/mL (ref 0.450-4.500)

LH:
3.7 mIU/mL (ref 1.7-8.6)

FSH:
4.0 mIU/mL (ref 1.5-12.4)

Prolactin:
11.5 ng/mL (ref 4.0-15.2)

Estradiol (roche ECLIA):
13.1 pg/mL (ref 7.6-42.6)

The doctors are not much of a help and are very resistant to giving me options. In your opinion how bad are these test results? can you tell anything regarding my condition based on these numbers? to me it looks like my LH and FHS are decent but the testosterone and E2 suffer.

After much hassle, as of today (26 Jan 2014), my doctor’s assistant mentioned the possibility of AndroGel but said they needed to get state authorization to prescribe it to me, but own research has me discouraged about this product. I have another apt with the endo in a few weeks. I am also looking for another doctor to get a second opinion and present me with other options.

If I were to get the doctor to prescribe TRT or I was to do my own I questions:

1)is that it and I should never run an actual cycle because my body is already on at a small level always? I am also to the point that I would like to run cycles.

2) is it possible to preserve my fertility or is TRT an acceptance I will not be having and children ever?

3) can I ever come off TRT and be able to recover or once on I have accepted my own (poor) levels of test production are gone forever?

4) any other comment, advice, suggestions etc are grealty appreciated.

I know this is a lot of information, but every board I am on wants details from new members—feel free to ask anything else. Thanks for any comments and for having a look.

~RT

 

[ironwill1951]

if you want to do a cycle go ahead and do it, their are not to many of us on here that asked a DR for permission , cruise and blast..

 

[Notits]

Welcome to Meso. I am not a Doctor. Test levels at that range were unacceptable to me at that age, if you decide to go on TRT you will understand what you are missing.

1. A TRT dose will give you the ability to get a good stiff hardon and raise your libido to where it should be. If you want to start using steroids getting some hormones in your system again is a good start because at that level your all done making your own.
2. I have no experience or knowledge of fertility.
3. It is highly unlikley that you will ever want to come off TRT once you start.
4. Your here asking quesitons and thats a far sight better than most people do. Stick around, there are lots of guys here on TRT that are a far better resource than me.

 

[Moose]

Your test results are not that low. Everything is in the normal range and would not be causing your gyno. Having said that, a lot of guys on here would not be happy with that TT value. Your diet seems good but is it possible that you are under estimating your body fat and that perhaps it's not gyno but rather excess fat? TRT would not be out of the question in your case but I think the gel is crap. Can you do injections?

 

[Notits]

Your test results are not that low. Everything is in the normal range and would not be causing your gyno. Having said that, a lot of guys on here would not be happy with that TT value. Your diet seems good but is it possible that you are under estimating your body fat and that perhaps it's not gyno but rather excess fat? TRT would not be out of the question in your case but I think the gel is crap. Can you do injections?

Moose is right, im just a little spoiled walking around at 1500-2000ng on cruise

 

[Mr.B66]

Hey moose why do you or anybody else think the gel is crap? I'm just curious is it the delivery method, or mg of test or other ingredients like alcohol ect....?

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Was this post written one year ago? "Jan 14 2014" If so, what is your updated information?

Moving forward, if your primary concerns are fertility based then i suggest you continue with your endo to determine the best course of action in order to raise your testosterone levels (possible TRT) and continue to run tests to establish a baseline BEFORE you begin a cycle. Otherwise, you may end up chasing your tail.

 

[Moose]

Hey moose why do you or anybody else think the gel is crap? I'm just curious is it the delivery method, or mg of test or other ingredients like alcohol ect....?

The absorption rate is inferior and the transference on to a female partner makes it the less preferred choice of treatment (though is suspect the latter concern is overblown).

 

[RThoads]

sorry that was a typo it should have been December. This was today, this morning, December 26, 2014.

 

[RThoads]

Was this post written one year ago? "Jan 14 2014" If so, what is your updated information....

sorry that was a typo it should have been December. This was today, this morning, December 26, 2014.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

sorry that was a typo it should have been December. This was today, this morning, December 26, 2014.

Ok, cool. Thanks.

 

[RThoads]

Your test results are not that low. Everything is in the normal range and would not be causing your gyno. Having said that, a lot of guys on here would not be happy with that TT value. Your diet seems good but is it possible that you are under estimating your body fat and that perhaps it's not gyno but rather excess fat? TRT would not be out of the question in your case but I think the gel is crap. Can you do injections?

If anything I overestimate my BF%. I can see the faint outline of a 4 pack and can only pinch about an inch of fold on my abs. I was very skinny growing up, and yet still had gyno as a young adult with the lump under the nips and all

When I was tested back in April I was at 7.1 pg/mL Free Test.

This month 6.3 pg/mL with a reference 8.7-25.1 it fall well below the lowest end of the reference.

I am not disagree or agree with you, I am trying to learn, but if you have time could you further explain to me why you felt those results are not that low? My doc also thinks as you do but for me it looks very low, out of the range it is so low. I appreciate learning more about this, so again not bashing your opinion at all just wondering how that is not low when the reference range is 8.7-25.1?

The doctor was not voluntarily for TRT. After today's call the office mentioned the possibility of the AndroGel (pending some authorization that I did not understand). But from everything I have researched, the Gel is inferior and I would rather use Cypionate or Enanthate if possible -- I just don't know how to approach that with the doctor since he did not even tell me about such options.

Thanks to you, and all replies. Still learning and reading here and other places. I am leaning toward the basic protocol listed over at T-nation as a start
100 mg per week cypionate
250 ui EOD HCG
1.0 mg week Arimidex
but as some have said here, I should keep trying to work with my endo if at all possible before I give up and go on my own. He just is not giving me options

 

[HuckingFuge]

your Testosterone levels are shit. if you want to walk around with the levels you have, that just means you want to feel like an old man. if your Endo isn't jumping to give you injections of Test, move onto a rejuvenation clinic. rejuvenation clinics specialize in HRT and TRT.

 

[RThoads]

your Testosterone levels are shit. if you want to walk around with the levels you have, that just means you want to feel like an old man. if your Endo isn't jumping to give you injections of Test, move onto a rejuvenation clinic. rejuvenation clinics specialize in HRT and TRT.

Economics is an issue, insurance. but I rather be broke than old and not bale to do what I love. This issue is effecting my lifts, my relationship, and causing depression. I will spend today listing all clinic in a two hour radius and start calling everyone until I can find some that is willing to help me get at least a weekly shot of cypionate, talk to me about fertility and possible related issues such as gyno.

It is obvious I have weight trained for some time and so they already get suspicious (so ignorant of the medical community because the dosages I am asking for would not be much and if I wanted to hit a cycle I would just do it like millions of others with out the need for an endo).

Any advice on what to say to push things toward me doing my own doctor approved shots at home once or twice a week? and getting hcg and an AI for possible sides?

 

[Notits]

At a rejuvenating clinic you won't need to say anything with those numbers. This is what they do.
You could probably get deca too.

 

[Moose]

If anything I overestimate my BF%. I can see the faint outline of a 4 pack and can only pinch about an inch of fold on my abs. I was very skinny growing up, and yet still had gyno as a young adult with the lump under the nips and all

When I was tested back in April I was at 7.1 pg/mL Free Test.

This month 6.3 pg/mL with a reference 8.7-25.1 it fall well below the lowest end of the reference.

I am not disagree or agree with you, I am trying to learn, but if you have time could you further explain to me why you felt those results are not that low? My doc also thinks as you do but for me it looks very low, out of the range it is so low. I appreciate learning more about this, so again not bashing your opinion at all just wondering how that is not low when the reference range is 8.7-25.1?

The doctor was not voluntarily for TRT. After today's call the office mentioned the possibility of the AndroGel (pending some authorization that I did not understand). But from everything I have researched, the Gel is inferior and I would rather use Cypionate or Enanthate if possible -- I just don't know how to approach that with the doctor since he did not even tell me about such options.

Thanks to you, and all replies. Still learning and reading here and other places. I am leaning toward the basic protocol listed over at T-nation as a start
100 mg per week cypionate
250 ui EOD HCG
1.0 mg week Arimidex
but as some have said here, I should keep trying to work with my endo if at all possible before I give up and go on my own. He just is not giving me options

Yeah sorry I didn't read your numbers correctly. Your TT are crap. You need to go to a TRT clinic. You are clearly not getting what you need from your doctor. I was in the same boat as you and that is what I did. Then, a year ago I switched medical plans and found a doctor to prescribe injections. Now insurance pays for it. However at a TRT clinic you can get HGH, HCG and SERmS. Cost a lot though.

 

[Moose]

At a rejuvenating clinic you won't need to say anything with those numbers. This is what they do.
You could probably get deca too.

^^this.

 

[RThoads]

Yeah sorry I didn't read your numbers correctly. Your TT are crap. You need to go to a TRT clinic. You are clearly not getting what you need from your doctor. I was in the same boat as you and that is what I did. Then, a year ago I switched medical plans and found a doctor to prescribe injections. Now insurance pays for it. However at a TRT clinic you can get HGH, HCG and SERmS. Cost a lot though.

thanks for having a look and for the feedback. Ok, so it is pretty clear to me now, here, and every other board that allows me to openly talk about this (bb.com censors it) 9 out of 10 agree I should be on. I will continue reading and learning more so I make sure I do thing right.

At a rejuvenating clinic you won't need to say anything with those numbers. This is what they do.
You could probably get deca too.

thanks, I will be calling everywhere I can find in the chicagoland area.

And thank you to everyone else who gave me feedback, it is helpful to my learning and I appreciate your time. I plan to stick around this board as I have been reading and it seems to have a huge amount of knowledgeable members and information without much pushing of sources or products.

 

[DeezNutz]

@RThoads You would probably get some better responses if you posted this in the men's health forum. Anyways, before starting TRT I would rule out anything else that might be causing the low T number. Get an MRI on your pituitary to make sure you don't have a tumor. Also, many docs/endos are really "up-to-date" when it comes to TRT and are very wary of prescribing it. It never hurts to get a second opinion from a different doc. It took me almost a year just to find a good endocrinologist that would listen to me. Best of luck bro!

 

[RThoads]

@RThoads You would probably get some better responses if you posted this in the men's health forum. Anyways, before starting TRT I would rule out anything else that might be causing the low T number. Get an MRI on your pituitary to make sure you don't have a tumor. Also, many docs/endos are really "up-to-date" when it comes to TRT and are very wary of prescribing it. It never hurts to get a second opinion from a different doc. It took me almost a year just to find a good endocrinologist that would listen to me. Best of luck bro!

Thank you Deez. I will talk about that with my doctor, and yes I will deffienately be looking for another doctor to talk to this coming week. I sure hope it is not a tumor, wow that would be terrible--but I think it is unlikely because my LH and FSH looked in range.

My apology for posting in the wrong section. After reading more here I see that the Mens Health would have been more appropriate. Sorry I am brand new here and also had questions regarding whether I could still safely add a cycle (blast) at some point if I did commit to TRT so I posted here. I have done nothing but read all night and all day to get up to speed here, thanks everyone for such a good community here.

If I mod feels it is better to move this to the men's health forums -- go for it, I understand.