New UGL called AgentYes

[Millard]

Millard
I was not referring to HI being a "shill", it's obvious he owns a company and will promote those products, which seems reasonable to me.
However I was chiding (MO) Mike Ox for not making a similar disclosure.
Regards
Jim

It's news to me if he owns IML. But as a company rep he does a great job providing useful and accurate AAS info. This is even true when it involves an AAS like dymethzine that is sold by IML.

I just hope you guys recognize that not all company reps are created equal.

 

[Dr JIM]

HI please define specifically what test you are using to define the quality of "market"
rHGH!
Jim

 

[Dr JIM]

I stand corrected! The appropriate term is indeed "sales rep" for at least one if not several more AAS related companies. Which begs the question what is his affiliation with Agent Yes a company which is "resells" generic rGH? Is he "testing" the same products advertised? IF such is the case the conflict of interest is irrefutable.
Regards
Jim

 

[heavyiron]

I do not own IML. I'm the representative manager for IML.

I joined IML because I strongly believe its every adults right to use male hormones. If I did not believe in the vision of IML I would have nothing to do with it.

I'm also currently in the midst of testing Aces Pharm Cypionate. Results will be posted whether they are good or bad as always.

 

[Dr JIM]

Why are you testing differing vendor products?

What type of a relationship is established or agreed upon before doing so?

Do you analyze products sent to you by a company itself, or by individual using their products?

 

[regular]

WTF is this section for if we cannot give feedback? Pick ANY UGL or supplier and I can probably find solid info on them. Its bizzare to me that you guys call me a shill for WP then a few days later Im a shill for IML and now this. You guys have to be the most cynical anti drug members I have ever met.

btw, you are jumping to conclusions and making blanket statements you know nothing about. This board is seriously a waste of time.

I don't recall anyone referring to you as a shill. You administrate two boards and moderate a third which AgentYes and World-Pharma financially support. You have an interest in seeing both succeed.

 

[regular]

There are only two options for testing : obtain sample directly from ugl or from reseller. You can't guarantee chain of custody if obtain from reseller. You can't guarantee absence of selective scam if obtain directly from ugl.

So lab test are always invalid?

Only other option is no testing

This is ultimately why I likely won't invest in a lab testing program at Meso.

There exists a demand from sources themselves to determine if they are providing products which are free from harmful contaminates. Sources do the best they can with what they have access to. If you were able to make testing available to the community it could generally improve the quality of the products in circulation. I wish we could get testing done similar to the way dance safe does. DanceSafe.Org: Drug Information and Harm Reduction Resources | DanceSafe.Org

 

[Dr JIM]

The most credible means of testing any PED is thru vendee submission of selected samples to independent labs, since both "resellers" and UGL can't be trusted to deliver reproducible quality or concentrations to those designated, as "testers" compared to legitimate "consumers"

 

[heavyiron]

Why are you testing differing vendor products?

What type of a relationship is established or agreed upon before doing so?

Do you analyze products sent to you by a company itself, or by individual using their products?

A few years ago I started helping moderate an open source board and I would receive mixed responses from members on particular UGL's. Some would say product X was great and others would say its underdosed and others would say it was fake. It was all over the map.

I have been on HRT for about 6 years and I'm required to get labs every 6 months so I figured why not get labs on various brands since I had established my response to certain meds previously. One of my first tests was on WP's T3. It came back genuine as my TSH was buried. I then tested his AP Cyp. My results were not great. This was a pretty major blow as I had thought the products were good previously. I asked a few trusted members to do labs as well. We then started posting results good or bad. It was very eye opening.

I do this for my own curiosity and also for the membership. At one point several advertisers had products that repeatedly came back bad. We posted it openly because the members are more important than the advertiser. Contrary to what is being implied in this thread I could care less if an advertiser is exposed. If the results are good then great but if they are bad the members deserve to know. I'm not very popular with some advertisers because of this.

I do not profit financially from this at all. In fact, the lab testing can be expensive. Some advertisers send free samples and some have no idea products are being tested. Some are done with blood work some are done mass spec depending on the person performing the tests. Most guys that do this are paying for the results themselves.

For the purposes of full disclosure this current testing is being done with free product. I'm paying for the labs out of my own pocket. I will post the results no matter if they are good or bad. However I always contact the advertiser first.

 

[heavyiron]

I don't recall anyone referring to you as a shill. You administrate two boards and moderate a third which AgentYes and World-Pharma financially support. You have an interest in seeing both succeed.

I have an interest in the members getting what they deserve.

 

[regular]

I have an interest in the members getting what they deserve.

Here's what your moderator who represents you on a site you administrate has to say about that:

I'd like to explain how these boards work for those of you who obviously don't know. vbulletin is a tool used by administrator/owners to sell advertising space to "sponsors", providing them with a captive market. That's it fellas, no mystery. These boards exist solely for the use to sell products and there are many tools that are available to facilitate that. One of the ad tools available is admin approved mass PM's, they cost a couple hundred bucks and they target every member who can PM, not just the 3-4 in this little hate group in this thread. If I was a "schill" (seems to be the buzzword here) I would go this route instead. You guys who think this is a campy place that exists because someone cares about our health and comradere, are mistaken. I see AP product banner flashes on this board all the time. Wake up, they are buying ad space here too, this board is no different than IM or any other. Have any of you seen admin. weigh in on this little chat we have been having? Of course not. There probably a little less than thrilled you are bashing their paying customers. Are they "shills" too?

 

[heavyiron]

I'm pretty sure Tommy is drunk most the time. BTW, I do not own any of the boards I admin on just fyi.

 

[Millard]

There exists a demand from sources themselves to determine if they are providing products which are free from harmful contaminates. Sources do the best they can with what they have access to. If you were able to make testing available to the community it could generally improve the quality of the products in circulation. I wish we could get testing done similar to the way dance safe does. DanceSafe.Org: Drug Information and Harm Reduction Resources | DanceSafe.Org

I wish this could be done too. I think there is one big difference between that market and the AAS market. The latter essentially takes place relatively openly in forum-based marketplaces. I think this leads to a much more cynical community that quickly, if not always correctly, jumps to conclusions that anyone posting positive (or negative) lab results must be a company rep or have a financial interest in the results.

I have done lab testing in the past and have been targeted with smear campaigns. William Llewellyn did this with his Underground Anabolics book and was treated similarly. I was hit with repeated DDOS attacks just for selling the book. Lab testing isn't appreciated as much as you think.

 

[Millard]

The most credible means of testing any PED is thru vendee submission of selected samples to independent labs, since both "resellers" and UGL can't be trusted to deliver reproducible quality or concentrations to those designated, as "testers" compared to legitimate "consumers"

Of course, but the vendee still obtains from either ugl or reseller.

What's going to stop people from making assumptions about the vendee?

The vendee will inevitably be accused of being a company rep or having financial interest. After all, heavyiron is a vendee and witness his treatment in this thread.

Who is in charge of determining who are legitimate consumers and guaranteeing chain of custody?

 

[Millard]

You administrate two boards and moderate a third which AgentYes and World-Pharma financially support. You have an interest in seeing both succeed.

This could be said for any company that derives any of its revenue from advertising.

It doesn't matter if it's MESO or IML or the New York Times. The presence of third party advertisers can create the appearance of bias.

I would love to have 100 % donation funded website like Wikipedia. But that's not feasible.

The best that can be done is to provide disclosure and establish a history of objectivity.

 

[regular]

I wish this could be done too. I think there is one big difference between that market and the AAS market. The latter essentially takes place relatively openly in forum-based marketplaces. I think this leads to a much more cynical community that quickly, if not always correctly, jumps to conclusions that anyone posting positive (or negative) lab results must be a company rep or have a financial interest in the results.

I have done lab testing in the past and have been targeted with smear campaigns. William Llewellyn did this with his Underground Anabolics book and was treated similarly. I was hit with repeated DDOS attacks just for selling the book. Lab testing isn't appreciated as much as you think.

I'm sure there are sources that have plenty to hide. I've seen sources offer to split the fees of testing their products with a client though. I've also had lengthy discussions with parties interested in testing their raw materials for heavy metals.

A solution to keep anyone from believing a testing authority has an interest in one lab or another would be to refuse any sample which has any identifying characteristics except a serial number. IE one must inject a small quantity of product into a standardized sample container and provide no other information than a predetermined serial number. Upon testing the sample in exchange for a reasonable fee the testing authority can post the results for whichever serial number online. The results will then be have to be interpreted and disseminated by the party who purchased the test in the first place. This would shift any suspicion onto the party who ordered the test and away from the testing authority. The procedure would be different from dance safe but accomplish the same task.

The cynicism within the community is directly attributable to vendors who have established themselves to be deceitful. Aligning ones self with a deceitful party evokes suspicion.

 

[Millard]

I'm sure there are sources that have plenty to hide. I've seen sources offer to split the fees of testing their products with a client though. I've also had lengthy discussions with parties interested in testing their raw materials for heavy metals.

A solution to keep anyone from believing a testing authority has an interest in one lab or another would be to refuse any sample which has any identifying characteristics except a serial number. IE one must inject a small quantity of product into a standardized sample container and provide no other information than a predetermined serial number. Upon testing the sample in exchange for a reasonable fee the testing authority can post the results for whichever serial number online. The results will then be have to be interpreted and disseminated by the party who purchased the test in the first place. This would shift any suspicion onto the party who ordered the test and away from the testing authority. The procedure would be different from dance safe but accomplish the same task.

The cynicism within the community is directly attributable to vendors who have established themselves to be deceitful. Aligning ones self with a deceitful party evokes suspicion.

I think the weakest link is usually the vendee still - the person who obtains the product. Who determines the trustworthiness of the gatekeeper of this information? How can chain of custody be assured?

 

[Dr JIM]

Excellent point Millard, yet as YOU KNOW respect and trustworthiness is earned primarily via long term credibility and individuals whom have temporal associations with others in this business only raises the specter of suspicion.

This is particularly true, if said relationships became apparent through the efforts of committed forum members, rather than being dutifully DISCLOSED from the outset, which leaves the inquisitive mind to ponder what else might "they" be
concealing.

Consequently anyone whom is supported or is supporting a AAS related business is no more or less dubious than a single post noob whom glorifies "his success" with a particular product, especially a "reseller" or an UGL.

The only reasonable alternative, individual and independent testing until a viable alternative avails it's self.

Regards

 

[Millard]

Excellent point Millard, yet as YOU KNOW respect and trustworthiness is earned primarily via long term credibility and individuals whom have temporal associations with others in this business only raises the specter of suspicion.

This is particularly true, if said relationships became apparent through the efforts of committed forum members, rather than being dutifully DISCLOSED from the outset, which leaves the inquisitive mind to ponder what else might "they" be
concealing.

Consequently anyone whom is supported or is supporting a AAS related business is no more or less dubious than a single post noob whom glorifies "his success" with a particular product, especially a "reseller" or an UGL.

The only reasonable alternative, individual and independent testing until a viable alternative avails it's self.

Regards

I agree entirely but are you alluding to heavyiron?. His relation to IML was prominently posted in his signature file and avatar for months if not longer. IF this wasn't obvious, then I need to advise reps to take additional steps.

 

[regular]

I think the weakest link is usually the vendee still - the person who obtains the product. Who determines the trustworthiness of the gatekeeper of this information? How can chain of custody be assured?

It's impossible to verify the chain of custody to a third party. That is reason the testing authority shifts the burden of making any claims about a lab onto the vendee. There is no benefit for a testing authority to make any claim about a lab. Refuse any sample from a vendee who identifies themselves or the products they are sending to be tested. Work with the samples you're provided and let everyone else play in the mud.

The credibility of the vendee who sent in a sample is always subjective to third parties. Someone who wants to know the truth for themselves will have to run their own sample if they are completely distrustful of others.