On HCG 25yrs old, Concerned!

riped

New Member
I am a 25 yr old male that is suffering from very low sex drive. I recently went to an Endo where I did all the proper blood tests. I followed up with him two days ago, and to my surprise, he said that my levels were not that bad. He said that my Biovailable T was just below for my age and that my E2 was slightly above for my range, but all in all was fine.

The Doc went on to say that although my test results were not bad, he wanted me to try HCG 10,000 IU 3 X week since I was still suffering from sexual dysfunction. From past experience, he told me that there have been instances where males had good lab results, but suffered from low sex drive and HCG helped. He went on to explain how sometimes although the body produces a sufficient amount of Test and Biovailable T is fine as well, for some reason is some males some receptor (at least the way I understood it) do not use that Test (or does not attach) something along those lines. By using HCG and increasing natural Test production, he is hoping that a higher percentiage of Test will then be absorbed/attached to these so called 'receptors'.

My only concern is that if this solution in fact does work, then if I come off I will go back to feeling the way that I do now (like a schoolgirl!). I've always been under the impression that if you stay on HCG for too long, you will become descensitized. So then what? This is one question that I forgot to ask the Doc.
 
riped said:
The Doc went on to say that although my test results were not bad, he wanted me to try HCG 10,000 IU 3 X week since I was still suffering from sexual dysfunction.

This dosage is way too high, and can lead leydig desensitization. You do not need to do more than 250iu at a time. 100-150iu per day should be sufficient.
 
Partly right. Partly wrong. hCG 10000Iu will definitely produce desensitization quickly, possibly after the 1st injection but absolutely at three times/week. Desensitization has been shown to occur with 5000IU or higher and less frequently with lower amounts. This is assuming administration qod or greater. Also, the reason for the hCG is very important. Is it for spermatogenesis? T production? testicular size? androgenization?
hCG 250IU is a very low dose, many individuals will not respond to this dose so it needs to be tailored for each patient, and this should be done with objective measurements (orchiometer, delta T). The use of FSH to monitor TRT is without any support in the literature and is contrary to HPTA physiology (quack quack).
I do not know why this is being prescribed. I surely hope the endo is not having you inject the hCG intramuscularly.

Peace

Mike
 
human Chorionic gonadotropin (hCG)

hCG is structurally related to the pituitary hormones luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH). The glycoprotein hormones lutropin (LH), follitropin (FSH), thyrotropin (TSH), and choriogonadotropin (CG) are heterodimers, which consist of a common alpha subunit and a unique beta subunit that confer the receptor specificity of the ligand. The subunits combine non-covalently early in the secretory pathway, and formation of the heterodimer is crucial for binding to the receptors.

Gonadotropins of urinary origin have been used for a long time. Recombinant forms of human LH (hLH) and hCG have been produced (in mammalian cells) and are being tested in clinical studies for human use; recombinant human FSH (hFSH) is available in several countries. At a cellular level the two hormones are roughly equivalent. In vivo, the main difference is the much longer half-life of hCG. hCG has a half-life of 8 hours compared to LH half-life of 30 minutes.

hCG has a stimulatory effect on testicular steroidogenesis and has been widely used for evaluating male Leydig cell function. The hCG stimulation test with assessment of serum testosterone (T) is used for evaluation of testicular function. However, considerable variability exists in the protocols for HCG stimulation tests. In the most commonly used protocols HCG is administered daily for several days.

A retrospective study was undertaken to estimate the diagnostic value of stimulated estradiol (E2) levels in the assessment of Leydig cell function. Serum T and E2 before and after repeated daily hCG injections in adult men with clinically suspected or established primary hypogonadism were studied. After hCG administration serum T increased gradually with peak levels after 72 hours. In contrast, serum E2 concentrations reached their maximal levels 24 hours after the first injection. Peak E2 levels after 24 hours correlated significantly with peak T levels after 3 days.

DOSE - In another study the circulating androgen response after 1 and 3-dose HCG regimens was examined. A single weight or body surface area based HCG dose, 100IU/kg. or 5,000 IU/1.7m2., with androgen measurement after 3 or 4 days was found to be reliable in testicular evaluation.

A 2005 study, 30-year retrospective study, showed long-term administration of hCG/hMG for 12 to 240 months resulted in sperm production in only 36% of the small testis, <4cc, subjects but in 71% of the large testis, >4cc, subjects. Noteworthy, doses ranging from 750 to 1500 IU of hCG, divided into one to three weekly doses, were necessary to restore and maintain normal testosterone serum levels in hypogonadotropic hypogonadic male subjects.

The production rate of testosterone increases in presence of rhCG, but the increase does not asymptote to a maximum level but instead decreases at higher concentrations of rhCG. Conventional assessment of Leydig-cell androgen secretion is based on acute injection of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). However, compared with endogenous LH pulses, hCG stimulation is supraphysiological. In particular, hCG kinetics and LH/hCG receptor occupancy are prolonged, resulting in steroidogenic desensitization. Desensitization is apparently due to receptor down-regulation in the testis.

TESTICULAR SIZE - Subcutaneous doses of 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week. Testicular size after 5–12 months of therapy bilateral testicular volumes increased from an initial mean of 6.86ml (group Ia) è 14.96ml (Ia); 4.46ml (group Ib) è 15.36ml (Ib); and 14.06ml (group II) è 28.36ml (II).

The primary physiological effect of the gonadotropins is the promotion of gametogenesis and/or gonadal steroid production. In the male, endogenous production of CG does not occur, and LH stimulates the de novo synthesis of androgens, primarily testosterone, by Leydig cells. The secreted testosterone is required for gametogenesis and for the maintenance of sexual libido and secondary sexual characteristics. The biological action of LH is mediated by its interaction with specific cell surface receptors expressed primarily on the cell membranes of reproductive organs such as testis and ovary.

Lutropin/Choriogonadotropin Receptor (LHR) - The LHR is a single polypeptide chain with an overall structure and topology belonging to the rhodopsin/beta2-adrenergic receptor subfamily A of G-protein-coupled receptors (GPCR) family that differs by the presence of a large extracellular domain. It is composed of two subunits that can each bind rhCG. Occupancy of only one of the receptor subunits may favor dimerization, leading to the initiation of signal transduction by the hormone. Steroidogenesis in the Leydig cell depends on the action of gonadotropin [LH/human CG (hCG)] exerted through its homologous receptor, to induce coupling functions and activation predominantly of the adenylate cyclase/ cyclic AMP/ protein kinase pathway.

Binding of LH/hCG to the LHR - The binding of LH and CG occurs with similar high affinity, and both hormones have similar potencies and efficacies in stimulating gonadal cells. Regulation of the LHR - In the adult testis, gonadotropin induces a dual control of Leydig cell function. Low doses of LH/hCG maintain LH/hCG receptor and steroidogenic enzymes, whereas higher doses of the hormones cause receptor downregulation and desensitization of the steroid biosynthetic pathway with marked reduction of testosterone production.

Transcriptional regulation - The receptor gene expression is related to agonist exposure at a low level of hCG, the receptor expression is increased. The exposure of testicular cells expressing the endogenous LHR to a high concentration of hCG or LH down-regulates the levels of cell-surface receptor. At the same time down-regulation of cell-surface LHR is observed a decrease is also seen in the amount of LHR mRNA transcripts. Posttranscriptional regulation - Desensitization is a word that is used to describe the ability of target cells to turn off an agonist response in the face of continuous agonist exposure. Desensitization is an important component of the regulation of hormone actions and it can occur at multiple levels.

A model developed allowed the simulation of arbitrary dosing schemes. This process provided a mechanism to obtain a maximum response while using the minimum amount of drug. The simulated testosterone levels demonstrated reaching a target testosterone concentration of 25nmol/ liter (720ng/dL), a dose of 1000 IU of rhCG every other 4 days would be sufficient. A higher 2500IU dose produces a slightly higher response. At 5000 IU or greater the dose produced a lesser response. The down-regulation model performed well when compared to actual physiological values obtained.

Assumptions of the model were (1) the pharmacokinetics of hCG for the repeated s.c. administration are assumed to be linear in respect to the dose; (2) testosterone is released at a rate dependent on hCG concentration and is eliminated at a constant rate independent of hCG concentration; and (3) the relationship of hCG versus the production rate of testosterone is by means of a complex binding model consistent with a two-site binding receptor with an effect proportional to one-site bound concentration.

Interpretations for the down regulation could be the receptor is deactivated (stimulation of production rate decreases) or internalized (stimulation of production rate ends) when more than one molecule binds to it. The study design did not allow separation of a concentration effect at the receptor level or receptor internalization or a combination of the two.

Only a small fraction of the approximately 20,000 cellular receptors need to be occupied to obtain the maximum rate of testosterone synthesis. The time course of the LH/CG receptor activity after stimulation is complex and is a function of the duration of the stimulation. At a high concentration of agonist, this time course can be split into three parts. (1) During the first minutes, the receptor exhibits agonist-induced changes in functional properties without diminution of the total number of receptors. (2) The next phase or step may last from a few minutes up to 4 hours during which a slow decrease in the number of receptors is observed. The decrease is caused by the recycling of the receptor. Almost 50% of the internalized receptors are degraded at each cycle, leading to the decrease in the total number of receptors. (3) After 4 hours the receptor gene transcription is decreased by the diminution of 50% of the receptor mRNA. Combined with the reduction in receptor due to recycling (2) leads to a 95% total receptor reduction. At lower concentration of agonist, only some of these steps are involved.

Conversion of cholesterol to biologically active steroids is a multi-step enzymatic process. Along with some important enzymes, like cholesterol side-chain cleavage enzyme (P450scc) and 3beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase/isomerase (3beta-HSD), several proteins play key role in steroidogenesis. A key enzyme in cholesterol biosynthesis is 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A reductase (HMGR). In the testicle, cholesterol required for steroidogenesis and other cellular functions is acquired through de novo synthesis and through receptor-mediated uptake from LDL and HDL. The receptors for LDL and HDL as well as HMGR in testicles have been shown to be induced by LH/hCG.

LH/hCG up-regulates the expression of cholesterol biosynthesis enzymes and lipoprotein receptors to replenish cellular cholesterol. The up regulation produces a protein producing a complex with LHR mRNA that accelerates LHR mRNA decay. The decrease of LHR mRNA level culminates in the loss of cell surface LHR and produces a transient abolishment of the signal cascade.

Peace

Mike
(I am back)
 
Last edited:
riped said:
I am a 25 yr old male that is suffering from very low sex drive. I recently went to an Endo where I did all the proper blood tests. I followed up with him two days ago, and to my surprise, he said that my levels were not that bad. He said that my Biovailable T was just below for my age and that my E2 was slightly above for my range, but all in all was fine.

The Doc went on to say that although my test results were not bad, he wanted me to try HCG 10,000 IU 3 X week since I was still suffering from sexual dysfunction. From past experience, he told me that there have been instances where males had good lab results, but suffered from low sex drive and HCG helped. He went on to explain how sometimes although the body produces a sufficient amount of Test and Biovailable T is fine as well, for some reason is some males some receptor (at least the way I understood it) do not use that Test (or does not attach) something along those lines. By using HCG and increasing natural Test production, he is hoping that a higher percentiage of Test will then be absorbed/attached to these so called 'receptors'.

My only concern is that if this solution in fact does work, then if I come off I will go back to feeling the way that I do now (like a schoolgirl!). I've always been under the impression that if you stay on HCG for too long, you will become descensitized. So then what? This is one question that I forgot to ask the Doc.
For the life of me I do not understand why men with problems like this are sent to see Endo's they are not good Dr.'s for low testosterone. Could you post your test results with the ranges and units. I have heard of Endo't telling men that had a test level of 250 that they were in the normal range and they must be depressed. Don't do the HCG shots they will burn out your testis. Also post your state that you live in and we will see if we can't find you a good Dr.

Welcome back Dr. Mike hope everything went well for you.
 
asih.net said:
Also, the reason for the hCG is very important. Is it for spermatogenesis? T production? testicular size? androgenization?
hCG 250IU is a very low dose, many individuals will not respond to this dose so it needs to be tailored for each patient, and this should be done with objective measurements (orchiometer, delta T).

Welcome back Dr. Mike.

The following study indicates that approximately 250iu every other day was sufficient to restore ITT to baseline in subjects that had complete T suppression. Would you please comment on this, also referencing your quote above. Thanks.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.
 
Welcome back Dr. Mike.....

I think taking that much HCG is not a good idea (10,000), that will give you a set of tits so fast Pamela Anderson would be jealous.

It kind of sounds like if you lowered your E2 some your test would raise.
Too high of E2 kills sex drive too, so does too low test.


I went to the doc for ED problems and he perscribed me (2) 18 year olds:D

Just kidding...........:cool:
 
I appologize since I stated the amount of HCG to be 10,000IU 3 X week. What I should have said is that it is a 10,000 IU 10ml bottle. I have been advised to take 350IU 3 X week. The reason I am taking it is becasue of very poor sex drive that has persisted for over 1 year now. Lowerin E2 never worked for me since I tried DIM Indoplex, and even stronger AI's in the past. Unfortunayly, I do not have the lab results (was never given a copy). If I remember correctly Test was at 10.2 (I think this means biovailable T) and E2 was at 16.1.

So should I be concerned with a 350IU dose 3 X week in terms of becoming descensitized? In regards to the Doc, he came highly recommended. Since I am from Canada, Toronto to be exact, I went to www.mastersmensclinic.com.
 
riped said:
I appologize since I stated the amount of HCG to be 10,000IU 3 X week. What I should have said is that it is a 10,000 IU 10ml bottle. I have been advised to take 350IU 3 X week. The reason I am taking it is becasue of very poor sex drive that has persisted for over 1 year now. Lowerin E2 never worked for me since I tried DIM Indoplex, and even stronger AI's in the past. Unfortunayly, I do not have the lab results (was never given a copy). If I remember correctly Test was at 10.2 (I think this means biovailable T) and E2 was at 16.1.

So should I be concerned with a 350IU dose 3 X week in terms of becoming descensitized? In regards to the Doc, he came highly recommended. Since I am from Canada, Toronto to be exact, I went to www.mastersmensclinic.com.
You sould be good to go on that dose I first started on 500 IU's 3 x's a week after the 15th shot my Total T levels went why up and I felt the best I ever felt on TRT in all the 22 yrs on it.
 
Welcome back Dr. Mike!!!!!! We missed your input.

No, 350 would not be bad. I have just found out 250 is not helping me so, like Dr. Mike said, each person is different. You might need to go even higher after your Doc checks to see if the 350 is working or not. I am even suprised you got an Endo to give you HCG right off the bat. Most throw a script for Androgel at you and that is all they know how to do.

Paul
 
pmgamer18 said:
You sould be good to go on that dose I first started on 500 IU's 3 x's a week after the 15th shot my Total T levels went why up and I felt the best I ever felt on TRT in all the 22 yrs on it.

Thank you for the response. My next question is, say if the HCG does help, what happens if I come off? I would assume that I will go back to feeling the same way that I do now. Or, can one take HCG year round at the dose that I am on with no descesitization?

I also am a little concerned with the may I mixed the liquid and the powder since I shook the bottle pretty hard. I then read the instructions where it said to mix gently? Did I screw it up?

Thank you
 
riped said:
Thank you for the response. My next question is, say if the HCG does help, what happens if I come off? I would assume that I will go back to feeling the same way that I do now. Or, can one take HCG year round at the dose that I am on with no descesitization?

I also am a little concerned with the may I mixed the liquid and the powder since I shook the bottle pretty hard. I then read the instructions where it said to mix gently? Did I screw it up?

Thank you

Honestly bro, some clomid and nolva might be a good idea as the hypothalamus and pituitary migh have some shutdown, but the balls will be working double time:D
 
If your test levels are not bad you may want to look into other reasons why your sex drive is low, how low is it? There are other causes such as diabetes, high blood pressure, cholesterol, etc. that may be affecting it?

At the same time I have read that HCG followed by clomid and nolva have been effective in restoring T levels but that doesn't sound like your problem.

riped said:
I am a 25 yr old male that is suffering from very low sex drive. I recently went to an Endo where I did all the proper blood tests. I followed up with him two days ago, and to my surprise, he said that my levels were not that bad. He said that my Biovailable T was just below for my age and that my E2 was slightly above for my range, but all in all was fine.

The Doc went on to say that although my test results were not bad, he wanted me to try HCG 10,000 IU 3 X week since I was still suffering from sexual dysfunction. From past experience, he told me that there have been instances where males had good lab results, but suffered from low sex drive and HCG helped. He went on to explain how sometimes although the body produces a sufficient amount of Test and Biovailable T is fine as well, for some reason is some males some receptor (at least the way I understood it) do not use that Test (or does not attach) something along those lines. By using HCG and increasing natural Test production, he is hoping that a higher percentiage of Test will then be absorbed/attached to these so called 'receptors'.

My only concern is that if this solution in fact does work, then if I come off I will go back to feeling the way that I do now (like a schoolgirl!). I've always been under the impression that if you stay on HCG for too long, you will become descensitized. So then what? This is one question that I forgot to ask the Doc.
 
I have absolutly no health problems. Cholesterol is in check as is stress etc...
The reason that my Doc put me on HCG is that he said through his experience, some males although produce normal Test, suffer from low sex drive since some receptors do not absorb/attach the Test. Meaning that the Test is not being allocated properly from what I understood. By increasing my Test levels, he is hoping that a higher percetiage of Test will attach itself to the receptors that in theory should help me with my problem.
 
riped said:
Thank you for the response. My next question is, say if the HCG does help, what happens if I come off? I would assume that I will go back to feeling the same way that I do now. Or, can one take HCG year round at the dose that I am on with no descesitization?

I also am a little concerned with the may I mixed the liquid and the powder since I shook the bottle pretty hard. I then read the instructions where it said to mix gently? Did I screw it up?

Thank you
How do you feel after your shot do you get a feeling of well being. I can't see how shaking it hard will mess it up it should settle down after sitting. But like I said I realy felt great after about the 15th shot. You can take it for life.
 
asih.net said:
[A model developed allowed the simulation of arbitrary dosing schemes. This process provided a mechanism to obtain a maximum response while using the minimum amount of drug. The simulated testosterone levels demonstrated reaching a target testosterone concentration of 25nmol/ liter (720ng/dL), a dose of 1000 IU of rhCG every other 4 days would be sufficient. A higher 2500IU dose produces a slightly higher response. At 5000 IU or greater the dose produced a lesser response. The down-regulation model performed well when compared to actual physiological values obtained.

Mike
(I am back)[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Is this your clinical observations? Interesting because Dr Shippen and Dr Crisler recently got together and drew graphs of their respective interpretation of T production vs hCG dosing. They both plateau the rising slope of T before 500 IU, and continued the graph upwards for estrogens.

How did doses below 1000 IU compare? What condition were these patients in?

Dustin
 
1cc said:
In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

I like 1 cc, feel this study is the key to optimal dosing.

Ask yourself what will be the consequence when you then apply physiological concentrations of hCG (LH analog)? Do physiological concentrations of endogenously produced LH bring about desensitization of leydig cells? I do not think it has ever been demonstrated. If it hasn't I think we have only one option left. We try to dose appropriately to simulate endogenous LH concentration.

Dustin
 
pmgamer18 said:
How do you feel after your shot do you get a feeling of well being. I can't see how shaking it hard will mess it up it should settle down after sitting. But like I said I realy felt great after about the 15th shot. You can take it for life.

Well I have only done 2 shoots so far, and do not feel any diference yet. How soon should I see a difference in?
 
riped said:
Well I have only done 2 shoots so far, and do not feel any diference yet. How soon should I see a difference in?
What kind do you have I feel my shot in about an hr after I do it. It's a feeling of well being like someone lifted a ton off my shoulders.
 
pmgamer18 said:
What kind do you have I feel my shot in about an hr after I do it. It's a feeling of well being like someone lifted a ton off my shoulders.
I am using Organon HCG. I can honestly say that I feel zero difference so far after 2 shoots of 350IU.
 
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