PCT after 10 months ON

[jtmarlin]

Yeah, neither do I. But I'm not so sure about the fact, that the brain is capable of producing all of it's neurosteroids, in adequate quantities, all on it's own from testosterone. I don't know how one would measure brain neurosteroid levels? CFS levels? Or enzymes cfs levels related to said steroids degradation or degradation by products, etc.? Has this not been measured with subject on TRT? You know, what alarms me here is the fact, that many people loose libido on trt or on cycle, and it's only when they reintroduce hcg that it comes back. I've noticed this to, it's very obvious. But it's not just libido, cognition and depression get, for me personally, much better with hcg, albeit though, I find that anxiety in terms of more activation also comes along with hcg use. Might that be from sigma 1 agonists, of which some neurosteroids are? I react really badly to sigma 1 agonists in terms of activation and anxiety.

I never figured you as somebody who cycles, not in any meaningfully substantial way that is. You never talk about, or I've missed it. Are you b&cing?

When you reintroduce HCG how do you do it to get these feelings you describe? DO you blast it for a couple of weeks or just low dose it off and on?

 

[Jin23]

When you reintroduce HCG how do you do it to get these feelings you describe? DO you blast it for a couple of weeks or just low dose it off and on?

No no, definitely not blasting, it makes little sense. Even with a normal dose of 250 eod, I become horny af and also more anxious. Actually, my resting heart rate goes up a few points when I introduce hcg. I tried it several times during this trt+ cycle and the result was always the same: RHR goes up on hcg and goes down in absence of it.

 

[jtmarlin]

No no, definitely not blasting, it makes little sense. Even with a normal dose of 250 eod, I become horny af and also more anxious. Actually, my resting heart rate goes up a few points when I introduce hcg. I tried it several times during this trt+ cycle and the result was always the same: RHR goes up on hcg and goes down in absence of it.

Interesting. I also use HCG off and on and never notice this effect. Feels like water for me. I'm using Pregnyl at 250-500iu E3.5D when I use it.

 

[Type-IIx]

The brain doesn’t require insulin for glucose to diffuse… that is an entire topic in itself.

This is true; and it's actually that trienes can induce adrenal insufficiency.

 

[Type-IIx]

Yeah, neither do I. But I'm not so sure about the fact, that the brain is capable of producing all of it's neurosteroids, in adequate quantities, all on it's own from testosterone. I don't know how one would measure brain neurosteroid levels? CFS levels? Or enzymes cfs levels related to said steroids degradation or degradation by products, etc.? Has this not been measured with subject on TRT? You know, what alarms me here is the fact, that many people loose libido on trt or on cycle, and it's only when they reintroduce hcg that it comes back. I've noticed this to, it's very obvious. But it's not just libido, cognition and depression get, for me personally, much better with hcg, albeit though, I find that anxiety in terms of more activation also comes along with hcg use. Might that be from sigma 1 agonists, of which some neurosteroids are? I react really badly to sigma 1 agonists in terms of activation and anxiety.

I never figured you as somebody who cycles, not in any meaningfully substantial way that is. You never talk about, or I've missed it. Are you b&cing?

TRT has been shown to increase DHEA and to have no effect on pregnanolone [1].

Testosterone replacement in a rodent model increased serum allopregnanolone (AlloP), as well as increased hippocampal, hypothalamic, and anterior pituitary levels [2].

[1] Nasimeh Yazdani, Stacy Matthews Branch. Daily subcutaneous testosterone for management of testosterone deficiency. Front. Biosci. (Elite Ed) 2018, 4510(2), 334–343. doi:10.2741/E825
[2] Pluchino N, Ninni F, Casarosa E, Lenzi E, Begliuomini S, Cela V, Luisi S, Freschi L, Merlini S, Giannini A, Cubeddu A, Genazzani AR. Sexually dimorphic effects of testosterone admin istration on brain allopregnanolone in gonadectomized rats. J Sex Med. 2008 Dec;5(12):2780-92. doi: 10.1111/j.1743-6109.2008.00999.x.

I truly have no clue where the myth originates that TRT decreases brain neurosteroids. It's the 5α-reductase inhibitors that do this (think of these as blocking a primary function of Testosterone, 5α-reduction to 5α-DHT and its metabolic steps).

I cycle off, but I run blasts a couple/few times a year.

 

[Type-IIx]

Interesting. I also use HCG off and on and never notice this effect. Feels like water for me. I'm using Pregnyl at 250-500iu E3.5D when I use it.

Jin's the first person I've ever heard report these effects... they're simply not associated with hCG anywhere authoritative.

There are very few contraindications for hCG (adrenal insufficiency, pituitary adenomas, untreated thyroid disorders, active thromboembolitic disease, hamster protein and benzyl alcohol sensitivity).

 

[Megadick3000]

hamster protein

Huh? So your saying i have to stop eating my costco hamster fillets if im gonna pin HCG? fuck that, hamster protein is 60% of my intake bro.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

This is true; and it's actually that trienes can induce adrenal insufficiency.

I’m guessing that is a secondary reason for the insufficiency like from the by products of cortisol?

I always thought of insufficient adrenal function as a hypersensitivity issue within the body.

 

[Type-IIx]

I’m guessing that is a secondary reason for the insufficiency like from the by products of cortisol?

I always thought of insufficient adrenal function as a hypersensitivity issue within the body.

It's due to triene down-regulation of liver TAT (tyrosine aminotransferase expression). Other androgens may interfere with adrenal steroidogenesis, e.g., oxymetholone.

 

[Blang]

I truly have no clue where the myth originates that TRT decreases brain neurosteroids.

Thoughts on this study?

Response of serum testosterone and its precursor steroids, SHBG and CBG to anabolic steroid and testosterone self-administration in man - PubMed

The influence of high doses of testosterone and anabolic steroids on testicular endocrine function and on circulating steroid binding proteins, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and cortisol binding globulin (CBG), were investigated in power athletes for 26 weeks of steroid self-administration...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

FWIW anecdotally I've seen consistent decreases in the sulfate conjugates of DHEA and Pregnenolone with people going on TRT or using Test for the first time, while the non-S versions tend to decline slowly over time.

Typically people get DHEA-S and Pregnenolone (no S) tested so they notice thier DHEA seems "okay" but their Pregnenolone is crashed.

 

[Jin23]

Huh? So your saying i have to stop eating my costco hamster fillets if im gonna pin HCG? fuck that, hamster protein is 60% of my intake bro.

lol, I also paused at the hamster protein

 

[Jin23]

There are very few contraindications for hCG (adrenal insufficiency, pituitary adenomas, untreated thyroid disorders, active thromboembolitic disease, hamster protein and benzyl alcohol sensitivity).

Hm, maybe this is the reason why GH killed my sleep, a year ago when I used 4iu's and why hcg makes me more wired and elevates my rhr.

The story: A year ago I used 4.5iu's of GH to try and see if it helps me sleep. It helped a bit at first, although REM was crazy intense and real, but very quickly my sleep fragmented ad-nauseum, literary waking up every 20 mins. And it was not all anxiety related, rather, it felt totally mechanical (although it wasn't a good year and I probably had a dysregulated HPA). It slowly got better when I went off, but it never recovered to baseline. So for the past year's time I've been waking up app 10 to 20 times per night and for the love of god, after 4h of sleep I awake up hard, have to piss and all the sleep after that point is extra shallow (even if I don't get up to piss). Needles to say, the last year has been pushing my willingness to live ... I'm figuring this might be a subclinical hypothyroid issue which can also present it self with higher cortisol and messed up circadian cortisol clock (study).

My morning cortisol was always around 500, don't know where it is now, but on 2iu's of GH, my TSH is now at 3.5 (mIU/L), free T3 was at 4 (pmol/L) and free T4 at 10.5.

Would you care to comment on this? Would it be worth trying T4, as I see it lowers cortisol in hypothyroid patients. I also see that TSH levels in healthy population are closer to 1.5 and that the 0.5 - 4.5 range is kinda controversial; over 2 mIU/L is slowly starting to present with problems and over 3 mIU/L is already subclinical hypo (study). Idk if gilbert's also plays a significant role in this, but 400 -500 cortisol seemed high to me, when I had tsh around 2.5 - 3, back in the day before aas and gh ... Appreciate any thoughts on the matter, as this is the most serious issue I'm dealing with atm.

@HB_22 I remember you having a TSH over 5 but your sleep is better on GH right?

 

[HB_22]

@HB_22 I remember you having a TSH over 5 but your sleep is better on GH right?

Yea, but on my latest blood work TSH was 1.8 again (or so). So it was back to normal.

 

[Jin23]

Yea, but on my latest blood work TSH was 1.8 again (or so). So it was back to normal.

Just by it self? Or have you changed anything, went off the GH?

 

[HB_22]

Just by it self? Or have you changed anything, went off the GH?

No, I stopped taking potassium iodine which came in tablet form as a supplement but was very high dosed. My TSH went back to normal after. And I learned that taking a high dose of iodine is actually a stupid idea and was the culprit of high TSH.

 

[Jin23]

No, I stopped taking potassium iodine which came in tablet form as a supplement but was very high dosed. My TSH went back to normal after. And I learned that taking a high dose of iodine is actually a stupid idea and was the culprit of high TSH.

Oh, interesting, glad you figured it out. So taking to much iodized salt, might do the same?

 

[HB_22]

So taking to much iodized salt, might do the same?

This is very likely to be the case, yes.

 

[Hayes88]

Do everyone here have a masters in science and creative writing? It's an odd combination of "I got horny af" followed by twelve latin words...

Best of wishes is in your recovery OP! I am truly glad you get as much help as you do here, Meso has shown great colors to me so far. Another board with another case like yours were totally ignored (I was there). The guys sitting on knowledge do get fed up (understandable), so when you do get help and the help sounds rational/ logical enough - take it! I have yet to meet a doc who has even had remotely close to the knowledge I possess and that is truly truly horrible since I am Google reading newb...

The way you write reminds me a lot of my old self. I was extremely analytic and in that socially "different". My "party trick" became reading people I have never met and see how deep I could go before either hitting jackpot or being wrong (was rarely wrong), scary how much you can learn/ know about majority of people from just sitting on a bus home everyday actually paying attention to the random noise/ clothing/ body language etc. However, being analytic created scenarios, scenarios created anxiety, anxiety created fear of conflict, withdrawal, sadness and a myriad of other things.

You sound very very smart, and in my case I was told "I was too smart for my own good". Hope you do get balance there as well, for me blocking out and actively making me ignore my mind and feelings was the only thing that helped, but still battling a lot today still.
As another thread I have shows in part.

Talking helps as well, but as an smart person - listening becomes a problem (in my case that is at least). Working on that.

Keep fighting bro!

 

[malfeasance]

Yeah. Idk why though ... If my TT was normal 2 weeks ago. My sleep gets trashed by low e2. Very light and disturbed sleep.

Anyway, today woke up with morning wood. Yesterday, after I smoked a pinch of weed felt a tiny bit horny. Today also slept 5h with only waking up like 7 or 8 times ... So things are on the up and up I guess

Today's bloods are:

TT: 630
LH: 2 (IU/L)
FS: 1.3 (IU/L)

So, this is 2 days after cessation of enclom. TT is a bit higher but LH and FSH is actually lower, which is weird. TT is coming close to my normal 750 ngdl but LH is lagging behind, it's usually around 3 to 3.5. But FSH is at my normal level.

Anybody thinks LH will get better with time or is there maybe some permanent pituitary or hypothalamus damage? I know it takes time to recover from long cycles and that people take serms for a much longer time period ... so apparently the pituitary needs time? Balls seem to be functioning up to spec.

Just to be clear, these really mean nothing at all. Your numbers are manipulated by stuff you have recently taken.

You won't know about recovery until months from now, with no chemicals doing any stimulating or suppressing for months.

Check back in in, say, February, and let us know how it is going then.

And don't take anything hormone related, or even meant to stimulate hormones, between now and then.

Remember that some outliers take up to 18 months to recover completely.

 

[lukiss96]

Do everyone here have a masters in science and creative writing?

We went to meso school. You learn a lot of things, thing is no one ever graduated that school yet. It's like endless classes and new things to learn.