PCT after 10 months ON

Hm, maybe this is the reason why GH killed my sleep, a year ago when I used 4iu's and why hcg makes me more wired and elevates my rhr.

The story: A year ago I used 4.5iu's of GH to try and see if it helps me sleep. It helped a bit at first, although REM was crazy intense and real, but very quickly my sleep fragmented ad-nauseum, literary waking up every 20 mins. And it was not all anxiety related, rather, it felt totally mechanical (although it wasn't a good year and I probably had a dysregulated HPA). It slowly got better when I went off, but it never recovered to baseline. So for the past year's time I've been waking up app 10 to 20 times per night and for the love of god, after 4h of sleep I awake up hard, have to piss and all the sleep after that point is extra shallow (even if I don't get up to piss). Needles to say, the last year has been pushing my willingness to live ... I'm figuring this might be a subclinical hypothyroid issue which can also present it self with higher cortisol and messed up circadian cortisol clock (study).

My morning cortisol was always around 500, don't know where it is now, but on 2iu's of GH, my TSH is now at 3.5 (mIU/L), free T3 was at 4 (pmol/L) and free T4 at 10.5.

Would you care to comment on this? Would it be worth trying T4, as I see it lowers cortisol in hypothyroid patients. I also see that TSH levels in healthy population are closer to 1.5 and that the 0.5 - 4.5 range is kinda controversial; over 2 mIU/L is slowly starting to present with problems and over 3 mIU/L is already subclinical hypo (study). Idk if gilbert's also plays a significant role in this, but 400 -500 cortisol seemed high to me, when I had tsh around 2.5 - 3, back in the day before aas and gh ... Appreciate any thoughts on the matter, as this is the most serious issue I'm dealing with atm.

@HB_22 I remember you having a TSH over 5 but your sleep is better on GH right?
I cannot help but think your complaints have a more psycho-social origin brother, but if I recall correctly it was you that I mentioned potential hypothyroidism to based on something I saw, does that sound familiar?

I think it might be worth getting a diagnosis (or having it ruled out) and, if indicated, a treatment plan (from a doctor) for that (rather than self-medicating).

Suffice it to say, these side effects you attribute to hCG (increased RHR, anxiety, profound libido) are just not even hinted at as even rare side effects in hCG literature.
 
Thoughts on this study?


FWIW anecdotally I've seen consistent decreases in the sulfate conjugates of DHEA and Pregnenolone with people going on TRT or using Test for the first time, while the non-S versions tend to decline slowly over time.

Typically people get DHEA-S and Pregnenolone (no S) tested so they notice thier DHEA seems "okay" but their Pregnenolone is crashed.
That's interesting because I have not seen this (either this study or these changes in bloodwork); but I also don't think it's worthwhile to measure these values, as they serve no particular purpose. What's the clinical relevance of these neurosteroids in healthy adult men? TRT increases QoL measures consistently. Supplemental neurosteroids present unfavorable risks.
 
@Blang Other important points to consider: 1) published studies are only as strong as their supporting studies/replication over time (these 1985 results have not been replicated from what I have seen, but at least partly contravened), 2) serum neurosteroid concentrations do not reflect brain concentrations & activity.
 
Thoughts on this study?


FWIW anecdotally I've seen consistent decreases in the sulfate conjugates of DHEA and Pregnenolone with people going on TRT or using Test for the first time, while the non-S versions tend to decline slowly over time.

Typically people get DHEA-S and Pregnenolone (no S) tested so they notice thier DHEA seems "okay" but their Pregnenolone is crashed.

I have accidentally had my DHEA measured not S once. It was rock bottom while my DHEA-S is always in the 270 range which is perfectly normal. My Pregnenolone was like 30 IIRC which was at the bottom of ref range which IIRC was 25-200. This was after only 8 weeks back on TRT AND using HCG Pregnyl twice per week at 300-500iu. I'm not really sure DHEA non SULFATED and Pregnenolone are consistent numbers and may vary wildly depending on time of day etc. Just a hunch.
 
Thoughts on this study?


FWIW anecdotally I've seen consistent decreases in the sulfate conjugates of DHEA and Pregnenolone with people going on TRT or using Test for the first time, while the non-S versions tend to decline slowly over time.

Typically people get DHEA-S and Pregnenolone (no S) tested so they notice thier DHEA seems "okay" but their Pregnenolone is crashed.

From watching Dr Rand interviews he doesn't seem to think these numbers are of any clinical significance outside DHEA levels for viral immunity.
 
I cannot help but think your complaints have a more psycho-social origin brother, but if I recall correctly it was you that I mentioned potential hypothyroidism to based on something I saw, does that sound familiar?

I think it might be worth getting a diagnosis (or having it ruled out) and, if indicated, a treatment plan (from a doctor) for that (rather than self-medicating).

Suffice it to say, these side effects you attribute to hCG (increased RHR, anxiety, profound libido) are just not even hinted at as even rare side effects in hCG literature.

Hm, I don't think I remember that.

Regarding hcg, I've talked to so many people regarding it's effects on libido, and I've also read it's anecdotes plenty on boards ... I think I'm going to create a thread about it and do a pool, just to gather some anecdotes in one place. I'll tag you if the thread gets some traction.

Idk about the RHR, but I suppose some neurosteroids should have an effect on that? Just the sigma 1 agonism from dhea, that I mentioned early, should produce some stimulating effects, due to NMDA chanel current enhancement, and it also has effects on D2 signaling, if I'm not mistaken. Can't look up studies atm, but I'd be really surprised to see that this steroids have no impact on CNS ...



 
Hm, I don't think I remember that.

Regarding hcg, I've talked to so many people regarding it's effects on libido, and I've also read it's anecdotes plenty on boards ... I think I'm going to create a thread about it and do a pool, just to gather some anecdotes in one place. I'll tag you if the thread gets some traction.

Idk about the RHR, but I suppose some neurosteroids should have an effect on that? Just the sigma 1 agonism from dhea, that I mentioned early, should produce some stimulating effects, due to NMDA chanel current enhancement, and it also has effects on D2 signaling, if I'm not mistaken. Can't look up studies atm, but I'd be really surprised to see that this steroids have no impact on CNS ...



In 2% of users, hCG can induce rapid pruritis (but not increased libido per se). I take anecdotes from plenty of boards with a massive grain of salt honestly.

Libido is a phenomenon particularly prone to psychology, like anxiety.
 
Do everyone here have a masters in science and creative writing? It's an odd combination of "I got horny af" followed by twelve latin words...

Best of wishes is in your recovery OP! I am truly glad you get as much help as you do here, Meso has shown great colors to me so far. Another board with another case like yours were totally ignored (I was there). The guys sitting on knowledge do get fed up (understandable), so when you do get help and the help sounds rational/ logical enough - take it! I have yet to meet a doc who has even had remotely close to the knowledge I possess and that is truly truly horrible since I am Google reading newb...

The way you write reminds me a lot of my old self. I was extremely analytic and in that socially "different". My "party trick" became reading people I have never met and see how deep I could go before either hitting jackpot or being wrong (was rarely wrong), scary how much you can learn/ know about majority of people from just sitting on a bus home everyday actually paying attention to the random noise/ clothing/ body language etc. However, being analytic created scenarios, scenarios created anxiety, anxiety created fear of conflict, withdrawal, sadness and a myriad of other things.

You sound very very smart, and in my case I was told "I was too smart for my own good". Hope you do get balance there as well, for me blocking out and actively making me ignore my mind and feelings was the only thing that helped, but still battling a lot today still.
As another thread I have shows in part.

Talking helps as well, but as an smart person - listening becomes a problem (in my case that is at least). Working on that.

Keep fighting bro!

Tnx!

Yeah, there's a time to be "analytic" and a time to "flow". I seldomly switch between this states, as I'm a producer and a director. It's a bit schizophrenic, I admit, but I do know what you mean.
 
Just to be clear, these really mean nothing at all. Your numbers are manipulated by stuff you have recently taken.

You won't know about recovery until months from now, with no chemicals doing any stimulating or suppressing for months.

Check back in in, say, February, and let us know how it is going then.

And don't take anything hormone related, or even meant to stimulate hormones, between now and then.

Remember that some outliers take up to 18 months to recover completely.

Yeah, ofc, it's not my first pct. I'm well aware how recovery looks like, been PCTing for quite some time now. I've never been ON for such a long time though - this is definitely a new experience - so I know it's going to take long to recover. Even now, my LH dropped as soon as I lowered the SERM dosage and this is indicative of a slow recovery pace. I'll be updating this log as I go along, for sure and I'll just be using GH, if anything at all really ...
 
How old are you? Do you take stimulants, Adderall?

I'm suspecting your issues are resulting from something else. You do realize that "brainfog" and fatigue and all types of "cognitive" issues are not only common, but the norm for large amounts of the population?

It doesn't help that the world has been absolutely traumatized since your birth, but especially so in the last two years. Whether you have buried your head in the sand, or whether you understand exactly what I am talking about, it doesn't matter because you have been changed by it.

The good thing is that there are ways to alleviate or resolve your symptoms.

You likely don't have cognitive problems. You likely have a deficiency or deficiencies. You also suffer from the burden of introspection and perhaps stimulant burnout.

Do you take zinc? Do you eat eggs?
 
How old are you? Do you take stimulants, Adderall?

I'm suspecting your issues are resulting from something else. You do realize that "brainfog" and fatigue and all types of "cognitive" issues are not only common, but the norm for large amounts of the population?

It doesn't help that the world has been absolutely traumatized since your birth, but especially so in the last two years. Whether you have buried your head in the sand, or whether you understand exactly what I am talking about, it doesn't matter because you have been changed by it.

The good thing is that there are ways to alleviate or resolve your symptoms.

You likely don't have cognitive problems. You likely have a deficiency or deficiencies. You also suffer from the burden of introspection and perhaps stimulant burnout.

Do you take zinc? Do you eat eggs?

I'm not far from 40. No, not taking stims regularly and when I do I take MPH. Adderall isn't available in my country. Only atomoxetine and MPH. So no, I am not burned out from stims.

Eggs? Why? Due to choline? Yes, I do eat app 3 eggs a day. I also take ALCAR, which is a coline source and phosphatidylserine. Also have alpha gpc and racetams.

My sleeping problems have been exacerbated by GH. It might be sleep apnea or the cortisol circadian misaligned thing. I can't emphasize how mechanic the non sleeping is. I've tried everything and my circadian rhythm DOES NOT want to realign. I wake up couple h after sleep and that's the end of it. And I know a lot about sleep hygiene, been seeing a neurologist a couple of years back who specializes in treating sleeping disturbances via non pharmacological ways. Before GH I could reverse circadian misalignment with sleep deprivation or just simply by adhering to a stric wake up protocol, but now, none of this doesn't work anymore.

Yeah, the covid definitely upped my psychosis factor. But sleep was done in by GH.
 
I'm not far from 40. No, not taking stims regularly and when I do I take MPH. Adderall isn't available in my country. Only atomoxetine and MPH. So no, I am not burned out from stims.

Eggs? Why? Due to choline? Yes, I do eat app 3 eggs a day. I also take ALCAR, which is a coline source and phosphatidylserine. Also have alpha gpc and racetams.

My sleeping problems have been exacerbated by GH. It might be sleep apnea or the cortisol circadian misaligned thing. I can't emphasize how mechanic the non sleeping is. I've tried everything and my circadian rhythm DOES NOT want to realign. I wake up couple h after sleep and that's the end of it. And I know a lot about sleep hygiene, been seeing a neurologist a couple of years back who specializes in treating sleeping disturbances via non pharmacological ways. Before GH I could reverse circadian misalignment with sleep deprivation or just simply by adhering to a stric wake up protocol, but now, none of this doesn't work anymore.

Yeah, the covid definitely upped my psychosis factor. But sleep was done in by GH.
After reading a lot of this thread it sounds a lot like me.

I’ve been in a “brain fog” for weeks now. Not feeling right etc.

I don’t believe it’s from anything other than stressors in life. I’ve been non stop 6-7 days a week splitting up hours for work, school, taking care of daily life shit. It is a bitch. I have been waking up in the middle of the night wide awake after 4 hours of sleep then taking 2 hours to fall back Asleep. Getting 5 hours of sleep a night.

Daily life I’m exhausted some days other days I feel great and then crash by 2 pm. You name it. Body feels like shit.


I don’t think it’s any big thing or issue with my body. Has nothing to do with my trt. It’s life and I happen to be in a high stress period even if I don’t think of it as one because honestly I don’t. But realistically it is. You aren’t going to be walking on water everyday. You may not realize until your situation until you are out of the tunnel.

Give yourself some time and stop trying to find the answers to everything. Stop over analyzing everything down to the vitamin in your life. It isn’t healthy or productive. Stop trying to align everything and just listen to your body and give yourself time. You need time to rest and adjust.

That’s my two scents in this.
 
After reading a lot of this thread it sounds a lot like me.

I’ve been in a “brain fog” for weeks now. Not feeling right etc.

I don’t believe it’s from anything other than stressors in life. I’ve been non stop 6-7 days a week splitting up hours for work, school, taking care of daily life shit. It is a bitch. I have been waking up in the middle of the night wide awake after 4 hours of sleep then taking 2 hours to fall back Asleep. Getting 5 hours of sleep a night.

Daily life I’m exhausted some days other days I feel great and then crash by 2 pm. You name it. Body feels like shit.


I don’t think it’s any big thing or issue with my body. Has nothing to do with my trt. It’s life and I happen to be in a high stress period even if I don’t think of it as one because honestly I don’t. But realistically it is. You aren’t going to be walking on water everyday. You may not realize until your situation until you are out of the tunnel.

Give yourself some time and stop trying to find the answers to everything. Stop over analyzing everything down to the vitamin in your life. It isn’t healthy or productive. Stop trying to align everything and just listen to your body and give yourself time. You need time to rest and adjust.

That’s my two scents in this.

Appreciate the positive thoughts bro.

I'm not a novice in listening to my body/mind, as am not a novice in using nutrition, nootropics and pharma drugs. The middle of the night awakening, is a circadian cortisol misalignment that is typical to stress and consequently; depression. It's a by-product of a dysfunctional HP axis. You can try 5HT1a agonists, like CBD and Buspirone, or some other adaptogens like rhodiola, ashwagandha, tribulus, etc. Most of them will have a similar MOA in regards to stress, and that is; via HT1a agonism, as most are basically SSRI's and selective serotonin receptor modulators. They have other mechanism too. I have tribulus on the way that I'm looking forward in trying as it's not modulating stress via serotonin, which blunts my cognition to unfunctional proportions.

However, I've recorded my self sleeping, and my breathing is weird af. Lots of moments when I'm gasping for air and those moments corelate with awakenings. I've been a bad sleeper my whole life, and such continuous problems, are usually a sign of a deeper physiological pathology. It's the same with anxiety. So if somebody is struggling, for instance, his whole life with anxiety, it usually points to a physiological problem (if there isn't some underlying psychological issue like ptsd for example). We all have different neurochemistry, somebody might have overactive SERT or may have to much presynaptic HT1a's or might have hypoactive NMDAr's leading to hyper glutamate release, or somebody else might have low PFC dopamine transmission coupled with high striatal and mesolimbic transmission, etc. etc. All of this neurological issues will lead to somebody being much more prone to higher inflammation, ie. stress and subsequently depression, HPA dysregulation, etc. In other words, somebody has a much easier time keeping stress, psychosis, etc. at bay, then somebody else. For some it's a life long struggle, especially if untreated as that leads to morphological changes; brain is far from being static, for instance, changes in NMDAr subunits reflect stress - which subsequently effects cell Ca+2 influx and excitotoxicity. I'm just rambling here, but I hope you get the idea.

It's a comforting idea that you're proposing and I wish it would be that simple, but it's simply not the case and it's factually wrong to think that way, and I can't blame you for it - most neurotypical's think that way, as most are coming from their own perspective and also, they just lack the knowledge. But don't get me wrong; I do get the general sentiment that you're proposing. But sleeping this bad for such a long time, is a huge stressor on it's own and it needs to get resolved in order for remission to occur. And no, just "taking it easy" is not the answer.

I know ya'll are heavily inclined towards psychosis, stress, etc., being the root cause for my sleep maintenance issues (it definitely plays a role, as mentioned above), and thus, I wont bother explaining my situation further. But please, don't take this as me being negative and not welcoming your positive intentions. Cheers.
 
Appreciate the positive thoughts bro.

I'm not a novice in listening to my body/mind, as am not a novice in using nutrition, nootropics and pharma drugs. The middle of the night awakening, is a circadian cortisol misalignment that is typical to stress and consequently; depression. It's a by-product of a dysfunctional HP axis. You can try 5HT1a agonists, like CBD and Buspirone, or some other adaptogens like rhodiola, ashwagandha, tribulus, etc. Most of them will have a similar MOA in regards to stress, and that is; via HT1a agonism, as most are basically SSRI's and selective serotonin receptor modulators. They have other mechanism too. I have tribulus on the way that I'm looking forward in trying as it's not modulating stress via serotonin, which blunts my cognition to unfunctional proportions.

However, I've recorded my self sleeping, and my breathing is weird af. Lots of moments when I'm gasping for air and those moments corelate with awakenings. I've been a bad sleeper my whole life, and such continuous problems, are usually a sign of a deeper physiological pathology. It's the same with anxiety. So if somebody is struggling, for instance, his whole life with anxiety, it usually points to a physiological problem (if there isn't some underlying psychological issue like ptsd for example). We all have different neurochemistry, somebody might have overactive SERT or may have to much presynaptic HT1a's or might have hypoactive NMDAr's leading to hyper glutamate release, or somebody else might have low PFC dopamine transmission coupled with high striatal and mesolimbic transmission, etc. etc. All of this neurological issues will lead to somebody being much more prone to higher inflammation, ie. stress and subsequently depression, HPA dysregulation, etc. In other words, somebody has a much easier time keeping stress, psychosis, etc. at bay, then somebody else. For some it's a life long struggle, especially if untreated as that leads to morphological changes; brain is far from being static, for instance, changes in NMDAr subunits reflect stress - which subsequently effects cell Ca+2 influx and excitotoxicity. I'm just rambling here, but I hope you get the idea.

It's a comforting idea that you're proposing and I wish it would be that simple, but it's simply not the case and it's factually wrong to think that way, and I can't blame you for it - most neurotypical's think that way, as most are coming from their own perspective and also, they just lack the knowledge. But don't get me wrong; I do get the general sentiment that you're proposing. But sleeping this bad for such a long time, is a huge stressor on it's own and it needs to get resolved in order for remission to occur. And no, just "taking it easy" is not the answer.

I know ya'll are heavily inclined towards psychosis, stress, etc., being the root cause for my sleep maintenance issues (it definitely plays a role, as mentioned above), and thus, I wont bother explaining my situation further. But please, don't take this as me being negative and not welcoming your positive intentions. Cheers.
Do you live around a lot of electricity, 5g towers etc?

Have you tried Cyproheptadine? It's anti serotonin and antistress.
 
Do you live around a lot of electricity, 5g towers etc?

Have you tried Cyproheptadine? It's anti serotonin and antistress.

Never tried that particular antihistamine no, but first gen antihistamines, I can't take them for more than two consecutive days. Tnx
 
Back
Top