lukiss96
Well-known Member
Good to know, you're doing well man.
Time heals, you only need to be patient and better times will come.
Awesome that you update us, keep going forward man.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
PCT after 10 months ON
- Thread starter Jin23
- Start date
Time heals, you only need to be patient and better times will come.
Awesome that you update us, keep going forward man.
Henchus maximus98736
Member
My e2 was chronically low after meddling with my aromatase.
Took a while.
Took a while.
Jin23
Well-known Member
Yeah. Idk why though ... If my TT was normal 2 weeks ago. My sleep gets trashed by low e2. Very light and disturbed sleep.
Anyway, today woke up with morning wood. Yesterday, after I smoked a pinch of weed felt a tiny bit horny. Today also slept 5h with only waking up like 7 or 8 times ... So things are on the up and up I guess
Jin23
Well-known Member
Today's bloods are:
TT: 630
LH: 2 (IU/L)
FS: 1.3 (IU/L)
So, this is 2 days after cessation of enclom. TT is a bit higher but LH and FSH is actually lower, which is weird. TT is coming close to my normal 750 ngdl but LH is lagging behind, it's usually around 3 to 3.5. But FSH is at my normal level.
Anybody thinks LH will get better with time or is there maybe some permanent pituitary or hypothalamus damage? I know it takes time to recover from long cycles and that people take serms for a much longer time period ... so apparently the pituitary needs time? Balls seem to be functioning up to spec.
TT: 630
LH: 2 (IU/L)
FS: 1.3 (IU/L)
So, this is 2 days after cessation of enclom. TT is a bit higher but LH and FSH is actually lower, which is weird. TT is coming close to my normal 750 ngdl but LH is lagging behind, it's usually around 3 to 3.5. But FSH is at my normal level.
Anybody thinks LH will get better with time or is there maybe some permanent pituitary or hypothalamus damage? I know it takes time to recover from long cycles and that people take serms for a much longer time period ... so apparently the pituitary needs time? Balls seem to be functioning up to spec.
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
You're still recovering. FSH is a bit low (range 1.6 - 8.0 mIU/mL [or IU/L]), it'll come up along with TT. Note that LH & FSH are pulsatilely secreted (circadian rhythmically) and can vary from the low end to the high end just depending on factors like the time of day.
Jin23
Well-known Member
Tnx. Yeah I know. It's always though, and I do mean in every test that I've ever done, been above 3.0 ... After the last PCT it has been 5.5 and then dropped down to 3.5 ... I wonder, is the GnRh from hipotalamus that is stil catching up or is is the pituitary ...? Or even more down the signaling cascade ...
Monkipalo
Member
Could you expand on that please? symptoms?What do you think was the cause of it? Any androgen in particular or just abusing them? Were you having the same problem on "small" amount of androgens 75-100mg/w?
Hoping a speedy recovery to you!
Henchus maximus98736
Member
You cannot fool your body. Cognitive decline follows aas abuse. In different ways.
Memory was a bad one for me.
Memory was a bad one for me.
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
Personally, I tend to believe that Jin looks at us as above average aggressive dumbfucks (he may be right), thinks that it's because AAS cause cognitive decline, and maybe associates that with whatever's occurring in his own life. He has often indicated concerns about brain insulin resistance and speculative cognitive harms based on rodent data associated with AAS & GH (the latter has been shown unequivocally to be beneficial in reversing AAS cognitive harms to visuo-spatial processing).
There's no doubt that AAS cause visuo-spatial deficits in learning and memory in humans.
But if this were profound, the board's contents would be replete with anecdotes about vehicle and heavy equipment accidents. I don't see it.
Jin23
Well-known Member
You misunderstand. I never talked about cognitive decline per-se, rather; "a loss of intelligence". Bear in mind, that this is my anecdotal experience and am not stating this as fact. But, you don't really need to look in to the literature to prove or disprove this fact, as who here doesn't get "tunnel vision" on cycle? That is a loss in "plasticity", for lack of a better term. You might not notice it that much, if you weren't broad in your perception in the first place, but even so, you will notice the aforementioned tunnel vision, elevated ego, more aggression, more impulsivity, etc. and all of this will essentially narrow your vision - which is a loss of "flexibility". Aas are very good at doing one thing: making you a brute, with a lower emotional range, who is tough (ie. has lower sensitivity) and able to do "battle" and this is not a heightened state of intelligence, rather, just the opposite.
The lower sensitivity part is interesting, it is not just a matter of not being "phased" by potential sadness, and letting one self go to the decadence of negative emotions (which certainly is needed for the full experience of being a human being), but is also a lack of sensitivity in terms of what you are able to "see" and "feel". As in audio production; if you set your microphone on low sensitivity, because your speaker is very loud, the microphone wont capture the whispering of the person standing next to him. I hope my metaphor is clear; aas lower your sensitivity and this is a loss of perception and emotional flexibility on your behalf. So, this is one of the ways, of which I had in mind, with the loss of intelligence. I could go on and on for pages on end, describing all the loss of intelligence @Monkipalo that I had in mind when I wrote in my OP, that the loss of intelligence was unbearable, but I hope this is enough. It's my bed time, and I'm writing this with half of my brain shut down. If any juiced up monkey on this forum thinks aas are making them more intelligent, then more power to them (not saying this is you by all means), at that point I certainly wont argue with you.
Cognitive decline, however, IMO could (and probably does) occur to an extent, due to higher levels of stress - via constant HP axis activation, neuroinflammation, etc. - that high androgen loads, especially over a prolonged period of time, tend to cause. I certainly doubt cognitive decline happens, to any meaningful level, on your normal 8 to 16 month cycles. But being constantly ON, blasting and cruising, years on end, I really, ... really doubt, that any neuroscientist wouldn't paint that as unhealthy to the brain. I have yet to speak to such a person and be impressed with his level of cognition.
Off course, it's safe to say that statistically, majority of aas using population aren't the brightest peas in the pond in the first place, so there is that. I have yet to see a philosopher, an artist, a poet, a theoretical physicist, etc. on aas. You can be an empiricist and still function ok on aas, you haven't lost much as you weren't using more then half of your brain in the first place, as again; loss of cognitive abilities in terms of executive function, LTP, etc. probably isn't that big of a deal if you don't have problems in those departments in the first place (and empiricists usually don't, as learning and comprehension is a big proponent of empirical studies), but remembering something from text, a lecture, ... doing studies, drawing some creative parallels and maybe even proposing a new theory is, again, simple, it's just more complex then, for instance, being a mechanic; it's just empirical, factual knowledge.
I'm digressing heavily here. Also, don't really want to turn this log into a discussion about ... well, the direction in which this post and the previous one are pointing. I'll update it soon with new bloods! I'm feeling better, acne are also flaring up, so estrogen is high, which is a good sign in my book, and libido is also getting there slowly, as is the absence of depression.
Henchus maximus98736
Member
Use the cushion and ride it my nigga.
El monko. (2022)
El monko. (2022)
Henchus maximus98736
Member
too much worry here
UncleBuns
Well-known Member
Yo Jin, after reading your thoughts sounds like you're looking for something, but not 100% sure what it is yet. Sounds like your compass is taking you to the general area to find it though. I've read a lot of your posts here and elsewhere over the years and enjoyed them. You seem like a thoughtful guy and we share some personality traits. Unsolicited advice:. Don't get so bogged down in thought you falter on taking actions and going out and enjoying life. You seem like an over thinker like myself. That can be useful, but the downside is that if your thoughts run amuck in a negative direction you end up depressed with a shitty outlook and not actually living life but thinking you have things somewhat "figured out". It's a slippery slope, I know the territory. Don't forget to just get out, have some lighthearted fun, take some girls out, whatever. Everything in life isn't a philosophy dissertation.
Whatever you decide to do I hope you're successful man and find what you're after!
Jin23
Well-known Member
I appreciate the kinds words mate.
Yes, I do overthink, and yes, I do have a tendency towards negative decoding and emotion. I'm well avare of that. But still, it helps hearing it time to time, to take it easy : ) Meditation helps a lot as do psychadelics. Actually, they are both the anithesis of low plasticity that aas create, they make it so much harder to step out of a said emotional state, ie. they make it harder to totally switch your perspective - why I said they lower "plasticity".
However, meso usually gets the worst of me. It seems like I'm always in a hurry when writing here ...
I know what I want though, it's just my bad neuro genetics I was born with (adhd) that are making it harder for me. Granted, it helps a lot in divergent thinking, but makes it much harder to be stable ...
Again, appreciate the encouraging words.
lukiss96
Well-known Member
@Jin23 hey man, hold in there, you're kicking ass and we all know it's hard to go back to being natural again. Psychologically that is, but you got what it takes. I couldn't do it I admit, but you did it, big respect man. Maybe one day if I'll have to come off, I will remember you and your success. Stuff like this motivates us.
Type-IIx
Well-known Member
I agree with @UncleButtFart - you are a deep thinker, pensive, almost philosophical.
I recognize Tren in particular affects my cognition (this may actually be rooted in effects on brain insulin sensitivity as the trienes have been shown to negatively alter TAT activity in the liver). I don't think TRT Test negatively affects cognition though.
I think that AAS users as a group are impulsive, risk-takers, perhaps sub-average IQ. But I believe that Meso is above-average intelligence (you see this with a willingness to change beliefs and learn new things, actually reflecting neural plasticity rather than its absence). There's obviously an over-representation of antisocial, narcissistic, and borderline personalities in the AAS abusing cohort as well (these really show up on other boards, but there's some here; you get into it with one borderline personality here and I try to avoid him). Given the etiology and persistence of these disorders, it's certain that they increase predisposition towards AAS use and not the reverse causal. These drugs can potentially induce depression and bipolar disorders.
To most it is insane to take so many risks for enhanced muscle size and strength...
But I don't really care so much for that view myself. I'm not worried about how I am perceived by the meek.
Pineapples4Puss
Member
The brain doesn’t require insulin for glucose to diffuse… that is an entire topic in itself.
Jin23
Well-known Member
Tnx.
Yeah, this was much harder then coming off of a 3 month cycle. In those 3 months, you still remember who you were before you went on cycle, so the personality changes that you observe, are still perceived as a deviation from your "normal" (ie. baseline personality traits). This makes it a lot easier to go off.
It all becomes much different on longer cycles, ie. trt+, where the personality changes, in a sense, become your new normal; the level of aggression, assertiveness, high catecholamine transmission, low emotional flexibility, the absence of meditation (for instance), elevated ego, ... become permanent. You find balance (psychological) in a different way, and you probably stop relying on mechanism for balance that you used to use. This makes it a lot harder. I can say now from personal experience. It would have been easier, mentally, if I stayed at a true TRT dose for a month, or maybe even two, before going to pct. And actually, I would advise anybody else to do so, before coming off.
But bro, if your gonads have been shutdown for a long time (or were hypogonadal before you went on ?), then idk. why you'd really want to come off completely? I came off because my natural test is high and it was a shame for me to fuck that up + the fact that I just couldn't mentally stand the high androgen levels ... If I was more normal on cycle, then I would probably be b&c like all of you fine folks here ...
Jin23
Well-known Member
Yeah, neither do I. But I'm not so sure about the fact, that the brain is capable of producing all of it's neurosteroids, in adequate quantities, all on it's own from testosterone. I don't know how one would measure brain neurosteroid levels? CFS levels? Or enzymes cfs levels related to said steroids degradation or degradation by products, etc.? Has this not been measured with subject on TRT? You know, what alarms me here is the fact, that many people loose libido on trt or on cycle, and it's only when they reintroduce hcg that it comes back. I've noticed this to, it's very obvious. But it's not just libido, cognition and depression get, for me personally, much better with hcg, albeit though, I find that anxiety in terms of more activation also comes along with hcg use. Might that be from sigma 1 agonists, of which some neurosteroids are? I react really badly to sigma 1 agonists in terms of activation and anxiety.
I never figured you as somebody who cycles, not in any meaningfully substantial way that is. You never talk about, or I've missed it. Are you b&cing?
lukiss96
Well-known Member
Yeah, I get it, steroids do change you just like money does. There are stories that when people get rich or start making a lot more money, their status becomes elevated and they forget friends and relatives. Same is here perhaps, you leave fellow humans in the gym in the rearview mirror as you accelerate faster then they could have ever imagined.
I still remember first time bulking on test and dbol, everyone was saying holy shit, do you compete dude and asking what did I changed to progress like this. Well, I lied at first to everyone, I wanted my credit and wanted everyone to say oh wow, you put so much effort and work and the ego grew bigger and bigger overtime.
I read your story, it's interesting and feels like it reminds me of my own. I was struggling first few years, I felt like I sold my soul to the devil. I lost touch and I couldn't refuse what was given to me by enhancing myself. I tried to come off twice, but jumped back on.
You're older and wiser than me, your choice to use steroids perhaps was a bit more mature and more though about. Mine was too much too soon, after 4 years of training naturally, I wanted to reach the new heights, so I did at 23 years.
As far as my testosterone levels, dumb kid never checked, but I think they were fine at least. I was ~200 pounds same body fat as right now before I took anything, I'm a bit taller than average person standing at almost 6'2 in imperial units. I guess if I wanted bad I could recover, but what I meant to say, I don't have enough mental strength like you, so I can't do it. I can't give back what devil gave me lol. I feel superior and it's killing me yes, but I try to be a decent person, I put my effort now to become a friendlier and less aggressive human being. Seeking the balance between being enhanced and still being humanly with my actions, emotions, personality and willingness to help others.
I decided I won't use higher dosages ever again, as I get super aggressive and reckless, I don't like that. Testosterone and a bit of eq, primo or mast here and here at mini doses to enhance my cruise (as Type-IIx said it's better than to increase testo which is always tempting).
As for being human and meditation, well, I like walking in the forest alone and visit places I like which remind me something, have a nostalgic feeling, memories and otherwise have a spirit. This makes me more relaxed and helps to stay positive while recharging my mental energy.
I believe after years of being on, I found the balance and I just need to not lose it anymore. I even see the pinning now as a ritual, just need to know the limits here of course.
So here it is man, I understand perfectly what you mean. It's like we think alike and then different at the same time, while agreeing in essence of this all. The most important thing is to not lose yourself and stay true to your beliefs.
I like this quote from mafia game (as absurd as it sounds, yes game):
“You know, I think it's important to keep a balance in things. Yeah, balance, that's the right word. Cause the guy who wants too much risks losing absolutely everything. Of course, the one who wants too little from life, might not get anything at all.”
Still Jin, I wish you good luck on your recovery, do the right thing that you feel. After all, this is a journey whether right or wrong one.
