PCT guidance please

[pec]

Hey guys I am going to start my cycle here in a couple weeks. Its just a simple Test E cycle at 500 mgs/week for 12 weeks. i just wanna know what you think of this PCT plan i got for it. If you have any suggestions or tweaks i would like to hear them because there are so many ideas out there. I will be getting my bloodwork done before i start by the way. and i have nolva, clomid and Hcg on hand. This is my first cycle ive done in 5 years.

I was thinking of running it like this
Hcg- Begins after last pin at 2,500 IUs/week for two weeks
Nolva- was gonna run for 45 days at 20 mgs/day
Clomid-was gonna run for 30 days at 50 mgs/day

the nolva and clomid i was gonna run after the 2 weeks of Hcg. and by the way i have 20,000 ius of hcg total so if you guys think i should run it longer or more for any reason i def can!!

any advice on scheduling and dosing is much appreciated!

 

[T_verde77]

Comprehensive Guide to PCT | MESO-Rx Forum

 

[pec]

You guys think it is ok to do 100 mgs of clomid and 40 mgs of nolva a day? That seems like alot.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

You guys think it is ok to do 100 mgs of clomid and 40 mgs of nolva a day? That seems like alot.

I'd go blind with that much clomid. Keep is simple like your cycle. 50/25/25/25 and 40/20/20/20 for clomid and nolva respectfully. hCG on-ccyle @ 250iu per wk. (begin wk 4 if all you have is 5,000iu)

Edit: if you really want a simple and effective cycle/pct, end it with prop last two weeks then begin PCT 3-4 days later. if you choose this option, begin hCG wk 3.

 

[pec]

I'd go blind with that much clomid. Keep is simple like your cycle. 50/25/25/25 and 40/20/20/20 for clomid and nolva respectfully. hCG on-ccyle @ 250iu per wk. (begin wk 4 if all you have is 5,000iu)

Edit: if you really want a simple and effective cycle/pct, end it with prop last two weeks then begin PCT 3-4 days later. if you choose this option, begin hCG wk 3.

Thanks for the straight answer bro! I might do hcg during for preventiveness instead of after.

 

[pec]

I'd go blind with that much clomid. Keep is simple like your cycle. 50/25/25/25 and 40/20/20/20 for clomid and nolva respectfully. hCG on-ccyle @ 250iu per wk. (begin wk 4 if all you have is 5,000iu)

Edit: if you really want a simple and effective cycle/pct, end it with prop last two weeks then begin PCT 3-4 days later. if you choose this option, begin hCG wk 3.

Also bro one question. If i cant get the prop right now cause of money issues(i just got into my new place), and i begin the hcg on week 4, would i still run the hcg two weeks after the last pin of test before the clomid and nolva? And if so would the dose of hcg stay where it is or would it change for those two weeks?

 

[Dr JIM]

Hey guys I am going to start my cycle here in a couple weeks. Its just a simple Test E cycle at 500 mgs/week for 12 weeks. i just wanna know what you think of this PCT plan i got for it. If you have any suggestions or tweaks i would like to hear them because there are so many ideas out there. I will be getting my bloodwork done before i start by the way. and i have nolva, clomid and Hcg on hand. This is my first cycle ive done in 5 years.

I was thinking of running it like this
Hcg- Begins after last pin at 2,500 IUs/week for two weeks
Nolva- was gonna run for 45 days at 20 mgs/day
Clomid-was gonna run for 30 days at 50 mgs/day

the nolva and clomid i was gonna run after the 2 weeks of Hcg. and by the way i have 20,000 ius of hcg total so if you guys think i should run it longer or more for any reason i def can!!

any advice on scheduling and dosing is much appreciated!

- do you know what the half life of HCG is?

No that's NOT a pimp question.

However it's relevant with respect to not only HCG, but darn near every other PED in use today, as a drugs half life provide a measure of its DOSING INTERVAL!

Let's look at your SERMS and see if the "half life" principle holds true. Hmm that odd bc the half life of both of these drugs approximates 72 hours?

So why then are these drugs dosed QD (every day) in both clinical trials and according to the manufactures recomendations?

Well the fact is the half life of 72 hours is that of the PARENT compound and NOT of the more metabolically active ingredient BYPRODUCT. And what's the half life of those byproducts, about 22 hours! Yep half lives are important VERY important mate.

The dosing?

The dosing your have suggested is what induces ovulation in for infertile females AND has been used in males for the same purpose, albeit on a more limited evidence basis for males

This dose has also been used for AIH in published CASE STUDIES.

But we really don't know if the dose required to reverse HTPA suppression caused by AIH necessitates a higher or perhaps even lower SERM therapy.

So what to do? Chose the dose that we know works (for infertility) and has a lower frequency of adverse effects.

The same also applies to the use of DUAL SERM PCT therapy IMO, as there's a paucity of published data on this form of treatment and is probably best reserved for established "PCT failure".
(I'll agree there may be exceptions but they don't apply here IMO)

Finally BLOOD WORK is critical in KNOWING whether many forms of therapy are effective, and PCT is certainly no exception.

When should you begin PCT?
That brings us back to HALF LIVES again! What is the half life of T-e?

Oh that's VERY IMPORTANT bc SERMS are useless when exogenous anabolic agents are floating around BLOCKING the release of LH, just like E-2 does, even though some of the suppressive effects of TT are due to aromatization.

I'll give us this one

5-7 days.

So if you follow some basic pharmacokinetics your peak will reach 5K at day one and DECREASE 50% every 5-7 days.

So 5k-0 / 2.5k @ 1wk/ 1.25k @ 2wks / 750 @ 3wks / 375 @ 4 wks
etc.

Well as you can see there's no sense in starting PCT any sooner than FOUR WEEKS (six weeks if preferred IME) after your last PIN if T-e is what your cycling.

Ok now learn how you can take advantage of an AAS half life and SHORTEN the PCT waiting interval by using T-p rather than T-e during the last few weeks of a cycle.

Use the same dose but change the half life to TWO DAYS, the half life of T-p

 

[Dr JIM]

You want to REALLY impact, that is shorten the PCT interval, then run an oral agent the last few weeks of a cycle rather than as a "kick start".

There's something else that's rarely mentioned which is HTPA recovery is dependent on MANY factors.

That's to say there seems to be a somewhat fixed time interval that is REQUIRED for HTPA restoration bc of the "shock" induced by AAS alone. This means theirs NOTHING one can do to expedite recovery in the immediate post cycle interval, and that includes "beginning SERMS" early as a "kick start"!

This additive effect in many ways limits time on AAS to time off AAS

And that interval is 2-4 weeks with the primary variable being the cyclist AGE!

Admittedly the above is based on my experience alone but reinforced by supportive lab data collated from patients over several years now.

Finally OP id like to review your precycle lab data once it's available which I presume will be sooner rather than later.

Jim

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Also bro one question. If i cant get the prop right now cause of money issues(i just got into my new place), and i begin the hcg on week 4, would i still run the hcg two weeks after the last pin of test before the clomid and nolva? And if so would the dose of hcg stay where it is or would it change for those two weeks?

Prop and hCG up to a few days before PCT.

 

[Getbignotdietrying]

not by any means a pro but I believe 2.5 wks is way too short a period before pct. if op is running test e wouldn't he need roughly 4-5 wks to clear the test e regardless of test p introduction? I finished my cycle off on test p and was on prop for a month then waited 3 days to begin pct (also took hcg 250iu 2x a week) and still feel that I may have started a it too early. if you do switch to prop, give it atleast a month.

I'd go blind with that much clomid. Keep is simple like your cycle. 50/25/25/25 and 40/20/20/20 for clomid and nolva respectfully. hCG on-ccyle @ 250iu per wk. (begin wk 4 if all you have is 5,000iu)

Edit: if you really want a simple and effective cycle/pct, end it with prop last two weeks then begin PCT 3-4 days later. if you choose this option, begin hCG wk 3.

 

[Dr JIM]

Prop and hCG up to a few days before PCT.

Define a few days bc the half life of T-p forbids effective PCT for at LEAST TWO WEEKS.

To that end its important for all realize the most common reason for "PCT failure" is the presence of ENDOGENOUS AAS, the second is an inadequate duration of SERM therapy, which can only be KNOWN thru lab studies.

The AAS "PCT failure" relationship has been my experience and also that of Dr Scally.

 

[Dr JIM]

You guys think it is ok to do 100 mgs of clomid and 40 mgs of nolva a day? That seems like alot.

An initial loading dose is fine.

However doubling the dose that is already proven effective in male infertility and hypogonadism studies has its foundation in broscience as an extrapolation of "more is better".

However the "doubling down" of SERMS is more likely to increase the frequency of their adverse effects.

In addition none of these "studies" investigated dual SERM therapy.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Define a few days bc the half life of T-p forbids effective PCT for at LEAST TWO WEEKS.

To that end its important for all realize the most common reason for "PCT failure" is the presence of ENDOGENOUS AAS, the second is an inadequate duration of SERM therapy, which can only be KNOWN thru lab studies.

The AAS "PCT failure" relationship has been my experience and also that of Dr Scally.

Although your suggestion of 14 days is correct when used to calculate the number of half lives to reach a serum level conducive to beginning PCT, ive always experienced full recovery after waiting 3 days to begin PCT when incorporating short esters like propionate. This may not apply to everyone, but i believe the majority do in fact benefit from a 3 day waiting period simply because serum levels are low enough to begin recovery and not interfere greatly with HPTA. Again, this may not be ideal for everyone. But this is my theory based upon my experience along with empirical data and appears to be successful and produce favorable results so far for MOST bb'rs.

Having said that, its difficult for me to argue with Scally's work or your experience as a medical professional. Thanks for the clarification, Jim.

 

[Dr JIM]

Providing your HTPA recovery was based on lab testing the reason for said "success" would MUCH more likely be the result of other factors such as; PCT duration, T-p dosage or simply cycling T-p in isolation.

Exclusive of adverse effects, the initiation of SERMS mediated PCT causes no harm per say, unless of course one is using the DURATION of therapy as benchmark for recovery.

 

[Dr JIM]

Let's look at at T-p dose of 500mg for example. Your TT level will approximate 2-2.5K in three days, and roughly 1K in about one week.

I promise your LH will be zippo and SERMS won't effect gonadotropin secretion under such conditions.

However given enough time the TT level will decline in relatively short order, bc of T-p brief half life, enabling SERMS to aid in ones HTPA recovery.

Thus the duration of SERM therapy becomes a critical factor with respect to HTPA restoration.

In that regard, I hope you're ensuring
HTPA normalization has occurred thru lab testing.

Jim

 

[TheZMan]

@Dr JIM - you really got me thinking tonight with this thread. Pharmacokinetics tell us it takes approx. 4-5 half lives for a drug to be out of the system barring appropriate metabolism. This is all making good sense to me relating to start times for PCT. Thanks!

 

[Eman]

@Dr JIM - you really got me thinking tonight with this thread. Pharmacokinetics tell us it takes approx. 4-5 half lives for a drug to be out of the system barring appropriate metabolism. This is all making good sense to me relating to start times for PCT. Thanks!

Agreed - this thread deserves a sticky... Very good PCT information in this thread. Thanks DR JIM.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Im not entirely convinced that all exogenous testosterone must be completely out of your system, as Zman suggests, in order for successful restart of HPTA. I believe that the level of exogenous testosterone remaining in ones system prior to PCT will determine successful restart. And i further believe this unknown factor is different for each individual regardless of the number of half lives require to wait until completely metabolized.

No argument here. But that is my opinion based on experience, success, and blood work.

 

[big_tom]

Research........ HPTA.................. Hello!

Sorry, that's all I can add to this. Do your research and ask questions. That's what this forum is all about. A lot of BS you will find on these forums as well.. Bro knowledge, etc..etc.. You can only find out how your own body responds after doing your research. Best advice.