PCT issue

[Helios09]

Hello Meso,

I am having an issue with my PCT, I suspect I may be in a state of induced low estrogen. I feel like dog shit, joint ache, headaches, no libido, low energy, lethargic, low appetite all of the sudden into PCT but in the first week or so I was feeling great with high libido and energy.

My cycle consisted of 8 weeks of Test C at 400 mgs per week and HCG 250 IU M/W/F from week 4 on. Two weeks after the last shot I started PCT with a front load of 300 mgs Clomid on the first day and from there on 50 mgs of Clomid ED for 4 weeks.

Now I know that the half lives did not clear fully at the start of the PCT, but I don't think this would be the reason I am feeling completely broken, haha. My testes are full and gained some volume (from Clomid?) so I am probably producing T, my hypothesis is that my E receptors are all blocked up by the Clomid and circulating estrogen cannot act so in essence it is an artificially induced low E state. Any suggestions are very appreciated, I'm feeling the pain now lol. Maybe lower the Clomid dose to 25 mgs or just end the PCT early to see if I feel better and go do bloods in a month?


Kind regards.

Other info (25 YO, second cycle after the first one at 21, used prohormones also long ago around 20)

 

[Helios09]

No suggestions, I will just stop the Clomid for a few days and see how I feel then.

 

[Tdiitd]

Hmmm, well Im no pro but let me just put down my thoughts, see if anything sticks to the wall. Lol.

Sounds like you want to cycle. So on then recover. If so Id recommend maybe (up to you) doing a cycle like that for double, 16 weeks. If you're gonna shut down, may as well really use it. I mean, it could be 4 weeks for the test C to kick in, which gave you 4 weeks of real gaining progress, then you switch it right back off. Perhaps if you want to do just short runs, do shorter ester, like test prop for example, kicks in faster, clears faster.

For PCT Ive always heard (recently) that a full PCT is HCG/Clomid/Nolva. To hit all angles of the restart. I know PCT is always an area of discussion, but perhaps 3 ish weeks after the end of the test injections, start 1000iu HCG every 2nd day for 3 weeks, then immediately after that start clomid 25mg a day and nolva 20mg a day for 4 weeks.

Your system was just getting used to the maintenance level of HCG, so to really kick it back into gear you'd need a much higher dose for a lil bit to restart, then the 2 PCT orals to continue the repairs. Now of course, some may even argue that a 2 months of 400mg of test only may not even need that serious of a PCT, but where you said that you were having trouble I thought I'd yap for a minute.

Bottom line though, yea, blood work will really help you pinpoint where things may be lagging, or just out of range.

Good luck. Test only cycles I find can be quite rewarding, and very low sides for many people as well

 

[Megadick3000]

To be fair bro nobody feels wonderful during PCT. PCT is like a treatment for a steroid hangover. You have to go in with the expectation that your not going to feel like your old self, and even more contrasted, your not going to feel like you did a few weeks prior when you were on the gear.

How did you PCT on your first cycle and how did you feel in comparison to this time? Was the gear use similar?

Give it time is my advice. If by the end of the PCT regimen you still feel the same then dig deeper.

Do note clomid is a racemic mixture of two isomers, zuclomiphene and enclomiphene. The isomers have different effects with zuclomiphene considered a weak estrogen agonist and enclomiphene a strong estrogen antagonist. The circulatory half life of clomid is rather long, upwards of 7 days in some literature. Its therefore plausible it could continue to exert effects for a month after you stop use. The zuclomiphenes estrogen agonist effect is likely the reason some bros get hypersensitize on clomid. Personally i never had that issue, but its widely reported by bros everywhere.

 

[Helios09]

Thanks guys appreciate it.

@Megadick3000 I did feel very similar the first time I did a PCT, I used Nolva and Clomid back then, but this time I elected to just use Clomid, guess I picked the wrong one. Fuck I didn't expect to come down this hard, in this case do you say it would be good to halt the Clomid or switch to Nolvadex maybe?

 

[Megadick3000]

Thanks guys appreciate it.

@Megadick3000 I did feel very similar the first time I did a PCT, I used Nolva and Clomid back then, but this time I elected to just use Clomid, guess I picked the wrong one. Fuck I didn't expect to come down this hard, in this case do you say it would be good to halt the Clomid or switch to Nolvadex maybe?

Hard to say. The biggest factor needed here is simple: time.

Clomid or nolvadex both are clinically proven to boost LH/FSH/Testosterone. Some guys want the kitchen sink approach of just throwing everything they can at the issue. If thats your mindset then clomid + nolva, but literature suggests SERMs have an upper ceiling limit of their ability to increase LH/FSH/Test. For example 25mg clomid has in studies resulted in the same or very similar total testosterone levels as 50mg of clomid. Im unaware of any studies using the poly-drug combo of clomid and tamoxifen, but if im going to speculate id expect the combo to offer no advantage over either one alone given the apparent ceiling limit of SERMs in this application.

Also @Type-IIx had mentioned something to me a while back that id failed to ever consider. When you come off a cycle your estrogen levels are non existent because your testosterone levels are non existent, so what logical sense does it make to administer an estrogen receptor antagonist to block estrogen activity on the HPTA in a body that already is in a state of having no estrogen to begin with. It was a good point, and ive been sort of conflicted about the traditional PCT concept since. Just food for thought.

 

[Helios09]

I did the bloods yesterday, as well started to feel better, it looks like I have crashed my prolactin. I did also take some caber about 2 weeks ago, 1mg actually, this may be the culprit. Added Clomid back today at 25 mgs. Here is the results of the blood-work:


LH 34.6 - Ref range: 1.7-8.6

FSH 14.3 - Ref range: 1.5-12.40

Prolactin 10.65 - Ref range: 84.80-318
This is 8x lower then the low end of the reference range, I suspect this is the issue, as before I took the caber, I remember my libido was great and was feeling good. Evidently to crash prolactin can cause these kind of miserable side effects in my case. Two days before the blood work I was feeling the worst, very lethargic, depressed etc. The day of I felt better, although still not 100, but I can imagine the prolactin was even lower days before the blood-work.

Estradiol 30.3 - Ref range 11.30-43.20

Testosterone 18.8 - Ref range 8.64-29

Waiting on SHBG.

 

[Helios09]

SHBG was also really high, just one point under the upper limit. Although things are starting to get better, I'm using the assistance of tadalafil now.

I read up that clomid can also increase SHBG which can cause libido crashing.

So I switched to Nolvadex 20 mgs ED for the rest of the PCT (2 weeks). Will redo bloods some time after I finish PCT.

 

[cdoubleu]

Hope you notice some improvements man. Keep us posted.

I may have missed it, but I didn’t see where you mentioned the point that you stopped your HCG? Typically that isn’t supposed to run into your pct but stop before your pct meds.

 

[Helios09]

I took the last shot of HCG with my last T injection, about 3 weeks before I started PCT. I'll keep it updated should this info help someone in the future.

 

[cdoubleu]

Some say to carry hcg through until a few days before your pct, giving you a couple more weeks on hcg.

Theoretically I can see the benefits of doing that in your situation if you feel you may have crashed E2 at first. As the ester from your test C clears your getting less and less conversion from test to e2.

 

[Helios09]

Thanks I'll keep it in mind, since the half life of Clomid is quite long, I'll just stop all the SERMs, after the first two weeks of 50 mgs, it should taper out to 25 mgs and 12.5 mgs the following weeks, which are still effective doses of Clomid. I will not run the last two weeks at all for my case since the half life still retains it in my system, effectively being on PCT still. Feeling much better now, starting to train and libido+appetite is waking up.

 

[benfrankparkway]

Is it common to have dry joint pain in knees post cycle? I really wasnt expecting that.

 

[benfrankparkway]

Hard to say. The biggest factor needed here is simple: time.

Clomid or nolvadex both are clinically proven to boost LH/FSH/Testosterone. Some guys want the kitchen sink approach of just throwing everything they can at the issue. If thats your mindset then clomid + nolva, but literature suggests SERMs have an upper ceiling limit of their ability to increase LH/FSH/Test. For example 25mg clomid has in studies resulted in the same or very similar total testosterone levels as 50mg of clomid. Im unaware of any studies using the poly-drug combo of clomid and tamoxifen, but if im going to speculate id expect the combo to offer no advantage over either one alone given the apparent ceiling limit of SERMs in this application.

Also @Type-IIx had mentioned something to me a while back that id failed to ever consider. When you come off a cycle your estrogen levels are non existent because your testosterone levels are non existent, so what logical sense does it make to administer an estrogen receptor antagonist to block estrogen activity on the HPTA in a body that already is in a state of having no estrogen to begin with. It was a good point, and ive been sort of conflicted about the traditional PCT concept since. Just food for thought.

Do you have the post where Type-IIx said this. I am wondering this now too as I feel dry joints, cracking, low libido, etc symptoms of low e2 during PCT. I am taking Nolva and Enclomid and wondering if is causing me lower e2.