PCT - Lets get it ironed out (Dr Scally?)

[IRQ_001]

BigMesc I would not suggest starting test p when your supposed to start pct! That entirely defeats the purpose of being able to get the benefits of test e for the same length while also getting the benefits of a faster pct start from test p. It also means your t levels will be very low for a couple weeks while still being suppressed.

I don't believe that's what he said... He's just giving me another picture of when to start PCT.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Your right haha he said that is the amount of time you should run the prop.

Which is correct.

 

[IRQ_001]

ok Ape... start your suggested thread about PCT. I'll hammer you with questions there and you will learn to hate me lol...

I'll link the two threads together later to ensure the PCT subject is covered well for those that will come across this thread in the future.

We sure have learnt a lot here and thanks to all those who contributed...

By all means, keep this thread alive if anyone has further questions.

IRQ

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Proper PCT Protocol

PCT should only begin when the body is in an environment to stimulate LH and FSH secretion. In the case of testosterone this environment is achieved once TT begins to dip below pre cycle TT levels. Therefore not only to judge when pct has been successful but also to determine when pct should begin Pre-cycle blood levels should be taken.

How do we determine when TT levels fall below baseline aside from experiencing side effects or getting blood drawn every week?

As we know TT is directly related with the amount of exogenous testosterone we administer. In TRT studies it is generally excepted that a 100mg shot of testosterone enanthate/cyp will put blood levels at around 800-900ng/dl.
We can thus use this conversion with decent accuracy to judge at what mg TT levels will fall below baseline. (The conversion ratio somewhat lessens as doses increase therefore we should air on the side of caution when determining the optimal test mg target)

For example if pre-cycle levels are 500ng/dl then PCT should only begin when exogenous test falls to roughly 50mg. This will put TT in the 400-500ng/dl range and thus in a state where HPTA stimulation of FSH and LH release begins to become possible.

Now that we understand how to determine optimal Mg range of ex Test for HPTA restoration we must now find the length of time required to reach said levels after the last injection. To do this we must first understand Half lives of the varying esters. This information is easily and readily available so I will only give one practical example of the commonly used ester Enanthate.

Enanthate has a half life of 4-5 days (I will use a 5 day calculation)

A 12wk cycle of test e at 500mg per week will put ex Test at around 1000mg
(500mg+250+125+62.5+31.25 etc = 1000mg)

This means it will take 5 half lives to reach ex test at or below 50mg therefore time between last injection and start of PCT is 25 days.

This is the first part of my post I'm going to the gym let me know what you think I will finish it when I get back.

 

[msanchez]

I think the above sounds good, and a good summary of what was found in this thread.

My question would be - In the above example, the 50mg of exogenous test would put TT at roughly pre-Cycle levels. This is assuming that the body is not producing any of it's own testosterone, correct? What if the user uses hCG during the cycle? He should stop it when the cycle ends so that the tapering end won't be affected by the hCG stimulating natural test production, correct?

 

[IRQ_001]

That's an amazing first part Ape! Many folks will be happy with this.

I would guess the coming parts will be directed towards what is to be taken for PCT, for how long and at what dose (hCG, Nolva and clomid). If at all possible it would be great to include a tapering TP protocol based on a 12-week cycle! I think that using a short ester towards the end of a cycle is a great approach.

I hope that you are enjoying a great workout.

IRQ

 

[IRQ_001]

I think the above sounds good, and a good summary of what was found in this thread.

My question would be - In the above example, the 50mg of exogenous test would put TT at roughly pre-Cycle levels. This is assuming that the body is not producing any of it's own testosterone, correct? What if the user uses hCG during the cycle? He should stop it when the cycle ends so that the tapering end won't be affected by the hCG stimulating natural test production, correct?

Correct for the first question. the second question is a great questions and I have to say I have no idea how hCG DURING cycle plays a role in PCT. This is another thing I'm yet to fathom. According to Bill Roberts, hCG should be used during the end of a cycle while Dr Scally says it should be used after cycle ends. Two contradicting views from two scholars on the subject.

 

[afcceltic00]

Bro, drop the two week advice... as per earlier responses, the start of PCT is also dose dependant and therefore varies. Use the calc below for a more precise answer.

In the case of 500mg per week, PCT should start about three weeks post last injection. in the case of 250mg per week, PCT can start two weeks post last injection.

PCT Calculator | Post Cycle Therapy Calculator

Nice Info! Was planning on 2 weeks after last test E injection to start. Needed to know!

Would one still take AI up until pct? Say aromasin 12.5 eod

 

[IRQ_001]

Nice Info! Was planning on 2 weeks after last test E injection to start. Needed to know!

Would one still take AI up until pct? Say aromasin 12.5 eod

I really think that AIs shouldn't be used until sides become of a great concern or if you are aware of a pre-existing sensitivity to aromatizing AAS such as gyno or bloating. If you KNOW that gyno is a factor, I would actually take a step further and use Nolva instead of an AI given their functions.

Personally, I have no sensitivity to gyno and bloat in a an acceptable manner while on cycle. This may change as i plan to up my dose in the cycle to come and will only start AI if things go out of control. I say acceptable as the extra water provides strength, and with strength you can lift heavier and therefore a more intense workout for muscle growth.

 

[afcceltic00]

I really think that AIs shouldn't be used until sides become of a great concern or if you are aware of a pre-existing sensitivity to aromatizing AAS such as gyno or bloating. If you KNOW that gyno is a factor, I would actually take a step further and use Nolva instead of an AI given their functions.

Gotchya. This is my first cycle so I'm just acting on a "worst case scenario", so I know what to do when/if something comes up.

If you saw sides of gyno what would you take..nolva at like 20mg eod til it subsides? Then move back to the AI?

 

[Dr JIM]

I think that's an excellent summary Ape, yet because I believe the T-e is longer than 5 days, the importance of pre-PCT TT levels can not be overemphasized enough.

This is particularly true of new cyclist because PCT is
optimized once the TT level approximates the pre-cycle low end baseline. (As you clearly emphasized)

Consequently this information, if used correctly, allows the cyclist to determine (at least in part) whether they metabolize AAS in a slow, fast or intermediate fashion.

Regs
Jim

 

[IRQ_001]

Gotchya. This is my first cycle so I'm just acting on a "worst case scenario", so I know what to do when/if something comes up.

If you saw sides of gyno what would you take..nolva at like 20mg eod til it subsides? Then move back to the AI?

I would use nolva at 20mg throughout the cycle just to be sure in case of gyno. SERMS, such as nolva blocks E receptors and therefore kills the chances of gyno, while AIs reduces the aromatization to E and therefore reducing bloat and the chances of gyno but in no way an approach to ensure the prevention of gyno especially if you are sensitive to it.

 

[Dr JIM]

While I agree SERMs are the DOC for gynecomastia prophylaxis and treatment of existing disease, they reduce the possibility of developing gynecomastia yet do NOT eliminate that possibility.

The only means of eliminating that particular complication of AAS use may only be accomplished by surgical resection of the estrogen dependent ducal tissue.

I only mention this because some BB are quite surprised when gynecomastia develops in spite of SERM therapy.

Jim

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

I think that's an excellent summary Ape, yet because I believe the T-e is longer than 5 days, the importance of pre-PCT TT levels can not be overemphasized enough.

This is particularly true of new cyclist because PCT is
optimized once the TT level approximates the pre-cycle low end baseline. (As you clearly emphasized)

Consequently this information, if used correctly, allows the cyclist to determine (at least in part) whether they metabolize AAS in a slow, fast or intermediate fashion.

Regs
Jim

Would the use of a 7 day half life be more accurate? I'm having a hard time finding factually based literature on the subject.

 

[Dr JIM]

Yea that's because BB and lifters want a finite answer to the many questions that arise!

Here for integration mental sake here is a few

1) if my E-2 is 68 and I take 2.5 mg of Letro what will my E-2 once Letro achieves a peak or equilibrium value?

2) How much will 1000IU of HCG raise my TT level?

3) What will my E-2 if it's currently 40 and I pin 2500IU of HMG?

4) What is the optimal dose (in Gms/kg) of supplemental Amino Acids per day?

5) Recently What is the best BCAA ratio and the dosage?

6) what is the optimal dose oh HGH to ensure anabolism yet which minimizes side effects?

Damn I can go on an on and on because there are a MULTITUDE of variables which CAN SIGNIFICANTLY alter the outcome and that's exclusive on INDIVIDUAL variation.

 

[Dr JIM]

What does that mean and how does assist someone wanting an answer?

Will the answer always DEPENDS and it depends upon a variety of variables some known and some unknown.

I've seen the pharmokinetics of T-c vary remarkably such that in one citation it's as low as FOUR days and in another it's EIGHT, WTF?

 

[Dr JIM]

So what we are left with is an AVERAGE HALF LIFE and the variance of the AVERAGE HALF LIFE is directly proportional to that of the MEASURED HALF LIFE.

So what does THAT MEAN?

It means while the average half life of an acetate ester is roughly 36 hours (+ or - 18 hours) the AVERSGE HALF LIFE for a Deconate ester is TEN DAYS + or - FIVE DAYS!

Got it!

So since both Cypionate and Enanthate have almost identical lipid solubility characteristics (called the Log-D or Partition coefficient) and their MEASURED half life approximates FIVE DAYS the AVERAGE HALF LIFE IS;
FIVE DAYS + or - 2.5 days!

Now when PCT is the subject matter selecting a longer half life is more desirable because a LOWER TT level is what determines whether PCT is successful.

 

[Dr JIM]

I'll give you a relevant example about how PCT ITSELF CHANGES THE HALF LIFE OF AN AAS!

We know that during PCT lower TT levels are required BUT ONCE the TT level approximates 500ng/DL, SHBG begins to release the T-e which accumulated on it's ligands.

Now that's probably a considerable quantity since many BB run their cycle for 12 weeks at significant doses such that steady state TT levels of between 2-3K are common place.

Obviously since on average SHBG accounts for at least 50% of the TT a considerable portion,(somewhere around 80%) must be offloaded before a TT of 200-300ng/dl is achieved.

Regs
Jim

 

[Dr JIM]

In closing, the only means of KNOWING when PCT is most likely to be effective, requires the measurement of TT!

Jim

 

[msanchez]

Maybe scheduling bloodwork at a time prior to the appropriate TT level would show If you are on track enough. Obviously it would have to be worked in depending on the ester and the amount taken.