PCT - Lets get it ironed out (Dr Scally?)

[Archimedes]

Hey Guys, been enjoying the discussion from the background. Been reading everything one this site for 3 months or so now and something jumped out at me. Dr Scally mentioned he amended the HCG to every 3 days, and also discussed 1000 IU for the non-long term TRT recovering crowd which I didn't see covered in the write up.

One question I can't seem to get my head around is why the Bill Roberts PCT guidelines so different. His point of HCG impairing LH is interesting, especially If you used HCG during the cycle.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Hey Guys, been enjoying the discussion from the background. Been reading everything one this site for 3 months or so now and something jumped out at me. Dr Scally mentioned he amended the HCG to every 3 days, and also discussed 1000 IU for the non-long term TRT recovering crowd which I didn't see covered in the write up.

One question I can't seem to get my head around is why the Bill Roberts PCT guidelines so different. His point of HCG impairing LH is interesting, especially If you used HCG during the cycle.

I Actually asked dr Jim this question about scallys protocol in two of my last posts I wanted a second opinion before I changed it.

What bill Roberts overlooks is the fact that HCG during cycle especially at the doses recommended do not stimulate test production when TT levels are supra physiological. It may stimulate spermatogenesis which is why users of this method report an increase in testicular volume but it will not aid in HPTA recovery once PCT begins because it does not stimulate the leydig cells.

HCG should be used as a jump start for T production by stimulating atrophied leydig cells.

And SERMs should be used to keep those cells running after the jump start.

Fuck me should I add this in the post as well?

 

[Dr JIM]

Hey Guys, been enjoying the discussion from the background. Been reading everything one this site for 3 months or so now and something jumped out at me. Dr Scally mentioned he amended the HCG to every 3 days, and also discussed 1000 IU for the non-long term TRT recovering crowd which I didn't see covered in the write up.

One question I can't seem to get my head around is why the Bill Roberts PCT guidelines so different. His point of HCG impairing LH is interesting, especially If you used HCG during the cycle.

Not sure but perhaps his concern was what was once believed o be true yet has since been refuted and that is the development of tolerance to HCG. That is kind of like that heroin user requiring higher and higher doses to achieve the same benefit.


Fact is earlier HCG studies were on animal models, several of them, yet as is occasionally the case, human physiology is not a clone of rabbits, rats or birds.

This is particularly true from a hormonal perspective, perhaps because the "lower mammals" have a much shorter lifespan, thereby confining the limits of hormonal metabolism more so than humans.

jim

 

[Dr JIM]

I appreciate that answer and have already adjusted per your recommendations in the new post. There are new questions in the new full rough draft, specifically the dosages of SERM's and HCG during pct. I thought dr scallys recommendations were a bit overkill for AAS users considering his pct is designed for TRT patients. What are your thoughts on

HCG 2000iu EOD 1-20
Clomid 50mg morning and night 1-35
Nolva 20mg morning and night. 1-45

I was thinking

HCG 2000 IU EOD 1-14
Clomid 25mg morning and night 1-28
Nolva 10mg morning and night 1-35

I feel there are many more users who would find this acceptable and doable in terms of cost and time while still being effective. (I understand these should not be factors but they are)

Would you agree with this PCT if not would you use dr scallys or something else?

I've said it MANY times before (and I know DOC agrees) PCT should NOT be etched in stone! The treatment can and should vary based on the needs of a patent.

Dr Scally's protocol is tailored more towards the worst case scenario which is why his treatment is indeed aggressive. But that is EXACTLY waht someone needs who has been on AAS for several years, no doubt about it!

Understand a 23 year old who cycles 3 AAS for 12 weeks will likely have an uneventful recovery WITHOUT PCT. Thats right WITHOUT PCT! God forbid WTF Dr Jim that's the antithesis of what we have been told, taught and learned, NOT, NOT, NOT!!! (Did Arnie have any of these PCT drugs? Very few if any, they "cruised", lol)

What PCT will accomplish however is a more rapid restoration of the HTPA thus enabling a user to start another cycle SOONER.

That's important because uninterupted AAS use screws up the HTPA (probably thru reestablishing another set point for LH secretion, much like what is believed to occur in the "the elderly" patient) for a considerable period of time and some of those folks end up on TRT, at least for a while.

So if your asking is your suggestion for the drugs and their dosages are GTG in someone post a three to four drug cycle, sure it looks fine to me.

jim

 

[Dr JIM]

Ape you probably should clarify that HCG and SERMS are to be used sequentially rather than in unison. I'm just saying looking at that page a noob would certainly believe they should be run TOGETHER!

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Ape you probably should clarify that HCG and SERMS are to be used sequentially rather than in unison. I'm just saying looking at that page a noob would certainly believe they should be run TOGETHER!

Gotcha thank you.

 

[MR10X]

I Actually asked dr Jim this question about scallys protocol in two of my last posts I wanted a second opinion before I changed it.

What bill Roberts overlooks is the fact that HCG during cycle especially at the doses recommended do not stimulate test production when TT levels are supra physiological. It may stimulate spermatogenesis which is why users of this method report an increase in testicular volume but it will not aid in HPTA recovery once PCT begins because it does not stimulate the leydig cells.

HCG should be used as a jump start for T production by stimulating atrophied leydig cells.

And SERMs should be used to keep those cells running after the jump start.

Fuck me should I add this in the post as well?

Why would you think HCG would stimulate spermatogenesis but not stimulate testosterone production. Sure it wont show up with very high test levels because of AAS use but it could still be possible.

 

[MR10X]

I appreciate that answer and have already adjusted per your recommendations in the new post. There are new questions in the new full rough draft, specifically the dosages of SERM's and HCG during pct. I thought dr scallys recommendations were a bit overkill for AAS users considering his pct is designed for TRT patients. What are your thoughts on

HCG 2000iu EOD 1-20
Clomid 50mg morning and night 1-35
Nolva 20mg morning and night. 1-45

I was thinking

HCG 2000 IU EOD 1-14
Clomid 25mg morning and night 1-28
Nolva 10mg morning and night 1-35

I feel there are many more users who would find this acceptable and doable in terms of cost and time while still being effective. (I understand these should not be factors but they are)

Would you agree with this PCT if not would you use dr scallys or something else?

Just remember you are unique just like everybody else.....I have had recovery when using AAS in the 80's not doing PCT mainly because it was not known. I have had recovery using half of what your suggesting and also not using HCG and only half the dose of Clomid and Nolvadex your suggesting (as in your second version and with no HCG ).With blood work to prove it.I was 35 in the 80's and we never did PCT,i dont believe arnold did it either and he was doing AAS under doctors care,mainly because it was legal back then. There was no such thing as cruising,there might have been a few people that stayed on for long periods of time but who knows for sure. Personally i dont use a high dose of Clomid because of the serious side effects associated with it but thats just me and i have heard a lot of people say they have had serious side effects with it and wont use it at all. Is there a problem with throwing all those drugs at PCT for recovery,probably not but thats up to each person to decide on his own and by his personal experience like me. Ive done many cycles with no PCT over 30 and had no problem, as Dr Jim stated. .Not saying your PCT protocol is bad (second version is better)but just a bit of an overkill for a lot of people...but it might be better than nothing at all for some people. Coming with a protocol for every one is going to be will difficult.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I've said it MANY times before (and I know DOC agrees) PCT should NOT be etched in stone! The treatment can and should vary based on the needs of a patent.

Dr Scally's protocol is tailored more towards the worst case scenario which is why his treatment is indeed aggressive. But that is EXACTLY waht someone needs who has been on AAS for several years, no doubt about it!

Understand a 23 year old who cycles 3 AAS for 12 weeks will likely have an uneventful recovery WITHOUT PCT. Thats right WITHOUT PCT! God forbid WTF Dr Jim that's the antithesis of what we have been told, taught and learned, NOT, NOT, NOT!!! (Did Arnie have any of these PCT drugs? Very few if any, they "cruised", lol)

What PCT will accomplish however is a more rapid restoration of the HTPA thus enabling a user to start another cycle SOONER.

That's important because uninterupted AAS use screws up the HTPA (probably thru reestablishing another set point for LH secretion, much like what is believed to occur in the "the elderly" patient) for a considerable period of time and some of those folks end up on TRT, at least for a while.

So if your asking is your suggestion for the drugs and their dosages are GTG in someone post a three to four drug cycle, sure it looks fine to me.

jim

Then that person will likely lose most of the gains from AAS use. Further, to make the claim that 3 AAS will lead to recovery easily is not a risk worth taking. Where do you find any support for such a statement. I agree with the use of testosterone alone (male contraceptive studies), but 3 AAS! ND is one of these AAS that will cause problems.

And, to assume recovery is one of the biggest errors any AAS user makes.
Further, to say that PCT allows one to start another cycle sooner is not without great risk. HPTA Function is NOT HPTA Restoration.

As far as older BB, clomiphene has been around since the 60s. hCG for a very long time. And, they did much shorter cycles. IIRC, they did not use the AAS doses employed today. So, any comparison is speculative at best.

There are no well controlled studies for ASIH. Actually, it is basically impossible to conduct such studies. But, with the recent publication and editorial on ASIH, there is the hope that more will treat leading to better treatments.

 

[IRQ_001]

Haha he is definitely out of line coming back at you in that manner for just calling him a newb (which you are Irq) shit I'm still a newb. But I did not do this just for him but for the whole community. That being said lets not clutter the thread anymore regardless of who is out of line or not.

I never said I wasn't a newb . It's one thing to know that you are and another to be called one for the sake of belittling me... It's just not cool and not necessary. This is the reason why I'm here damn it . I'm here to learn and hopefully share what I learned with others. Anyhow... [)].

Tubesox, sorry for coming hard at you.

 

[IRQ_001]

I Actually asked dr Jim this question about scallys protocol in two of my last posts I wanted a second opinion before I changed it.

What bill Roberts overlooks is the fact that HCG during cycle especially at the doses recommended do not stimulate test production when TT levels are supra physiological. It may stimulate spermatogenesis which is why users of this method report an increase in testicular volume but it will not aid in HPTA recovery once PCT begins because it does not stimulate the leydig cells.

HCG should be used as a jump start for T production by stimulating atrophied leydig cells.

And SERMs should be used to keep those cells running after the jump start.

Fuck me should I add this in the post as well?

ahahahhahaha ... yes add it cause I'm coming across a lot of people that use hCG while on cycle. Actually, it seems to be the norm. The good thing here is that your answer is comprehensive. It's a simple copy/paste

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I Actually asked dr Jim this question about scallys protocol in two of my last posts I wanted a second opinion before I changed it.

What bill Roberts overlooks is the fact that HCG during cycle especially at the doses recommended do not stimulate test production when TT levels are supra physiological. It may stimulate spermatogenesis which is why users of this method report an increase in testicular volume but it will not aid in HPTA recovery once PCT begins because it does not stimulate the leydig cells.

HCG should be used as a jump start for T production by stimulating atrophied leydig cells.

And SERMs should be used to keep those cells running after the jump start.

Fuck me should I add this in the post as well?

hCG will work under any and all AAS conditions unless there was a prior problem!!! The serum level of AAS will have little to no impact.

I find it unusual that Roberts would make a such a claim. Does anyone have a link?

Also, with rhCG will there be NO stimulation of Sertoli Cells. The type of hCG is of some import, but not for PCT.

 

[msanchez]

Why would you think HCG would stimulate spermatogenesis but not stimulate testosterone production. Sure it wont show up with very high test levels because of AAS use but it could still be possible.

I have this same thought - why would hCG during cycle not stimulate test production? BR seems to think it does, which is why he approves of hCG while on cycle for use of small amounts (~500iu) per week for extended weeks (8-10 weeks).

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Ape you probably should clarify that HCG and SERMS are to be used sequentially rather than in unison. I'm just saying looking at that page a noob would certainly believe they should be run TOGETHER!

There is a very good reason to use SERM in unison. I highly recommend that hCG and SERMs be run TOGETHER in the last week of hCG. Until there are studies demonstrating a better timeline for their use, loading the SERM is a wise step.

 

[IRQ_001]

hCG will work under any and all AAS conditions unless there was a prior problem!!! The serum level of AAS will have little to no impact.

I find it unusual that Roberts would make a such a claim. Does anyone have a link?

Also, with rhCG will there be NO stimulation of Sertoli Cells. The type of hCG is of some import, but not for PCT.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)

 

[msanchez]

Article by BR: "But if HCG were used during this time, or started at this point, testosterone levels would be similar not to those of ongoing 200 mg/week usage, but to that level plus another 100-200 mg/week of equivalent increase from HCG."

"The better plan is, if using HCG, to employ it during a cycle to maintain testicular function so that the testes will be responsive to LH as soon as its production is restored. There will also be the advantages of maintaining testicle size and of providing some additional testosterone via HCG-stimulated production."

From his hCG profile here on Meso. hCG Profile

 

[Michael Scally MD]

This PCT will give you the best chance at achieving and maintaining pre cycle TT levels after cessation of treatment for any and all AAS cycles. This is a protocol he uses for his TRT patients.

( this is not part of the the post, Dr Jim do you believe this protocol is essentially overkill for the average AAS user considering this was designed for TRT patients?

Where do you get the idea that the protocol was designed from TRT patients? That is 100% wrong. I have never made such a statement. The protocol was designed from nonprescription AAS patients presenting with hypogonadism.

As far as "overkill," I look forward to all published treatments for ASIH. There needs to be more. I have never said it was the definitive treatment. I, more than anyone, has called for more research. Some of the Johnny come lately practitioners need to put pen to paper and publish. That is where progress will be made.

 

[IRQ_001]

Where do you get the idea that the protocol was designed from TRT patients? That is 100% wrong. I have never made such a statement. The protocol was designed from nonprescription AAS patients presenting with hypogonadism.

As far as "overkill," I look forward to all published treatments for ASIH. There needs to be more. I have never said it was the definitive treatment. I, more than anyone, has called for more research. Some of the Johnny come lately practitioners need to put pen to paper and publish. That is where progress will be made.

Doc, would you be able to give us a general profile of those "non-prescription AAS patients". I'm asking in an effort to understand how a responsible AAS user may respond to PCT in comparison to those that would relatively be considered "abusers". Perhaps the PCT treatment would differ? Just asking...

 

[Archimedes]

The main BR discussion I was thinking about is slightly hidden under the Aromasin profile. Under the banner "But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)". |To be fair it doesn't show him as the author however he wrote all the other write ups and it's it the same style of writing.

http://http://thinksteroids.com/steroid-profiles/aromasin/

 

[MR10X]

I have this same thought - why would hCG during cycle not stimulate test production? BR seems to think it does, which is why he approves of hCG while on cycle for use of small amounts (~500iu) per week for extended weeks (8-10 weeks).

And why even use it if it doesnt cause your balls to produce testosterone...???? isnt that the MAIN purpose of using it in the first place....