As Dr Scally said it was for treating patients that abused AAS and had hypogonadism,It requires a more agressive treatment than someone cycling AAS and getting off between cycles.....
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
PCT - Lets get it ironed out (Dr Scally?)
- Thread starter IRQ_001
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As Dr Scally said it was for treating patients that abused AAS and had hypogonadism,It requires a more agressive treatment than someone cycling AAS and getting off between cycles.....
IRQ_001
New Member
ok that explains a lot. If this is the case, the suggested protocol is in fact overkill for let's say a guy like me that goes on a max of two cycles per year followed by PCT.
Just to give you guys an idea on my last cycle. I was on 750mg test e for 14 weeks and on Winstrol at 60mg/week for 5 weeks. I was on the following PCT with no HCG AND had started the PCT two weeks post last test e shot (too early).
Day 1 - Clomid 200mg + Nolvadex 40mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg
Following 10 days - Clomid 50mg or Nolvadex 20mg
The end of my PCT was February 15th. My lab test came back last week showing that my testosterone level is high for a guy my age (almost 33). Looks like I'm fully recovered without HCG, using lower dosage of clomid and nolva and for a shorter period of time compared to what is suggested. HOWEVER, I did lose, some size while off but that's expected. I'm planning my next cycle for sometimes in May where I'll probably go on 500mg test E (tapering with test P), 30mg Dbol and 200mg Tren E and not sure as to what to do with PCT.
Did you obtain on cycle serum testosterone?
Did you get an LH? Or, when was the test done?
And why even use it if it doesnt cause your balls to produce testosterone...???? isnt that the MAIN purpose of using it in the first place....
Exactly. That's why I think there is something to using hCG during cycle as described. Of course, like Scally said above ^^, users should get blood work done pre, during, and post cycle to monitor actual blood levels.
IRQ_001
New Member
No Doc I did not obtain on cycle serum T. However, my LH came back normal-high as per last week's results.
IRQ_001
New Member
Ape, with regards to recovery after using Deca, I came across this which makes sense. Perhaps it's not metabolites related. To be considered for the final draft:
Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system.
This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.
Most use Nolva and Clomid for PCT...
Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system.
This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.
Most use Nolva and Clomid for PCT...
Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism treated with human chorionic gonadotropin.
That article was posted in the 90's I believe.
If SERM is still present in your system you could obtain a misleading testosterone level. There have been many people who ran their PCT with their SERM(s) of choice, their hormone levels came back to baseline or even above baseline. Then they have blood work done again a month later only to find out their testosterone levels have decreased significantly.
So the question of when you got blood work done after finishing PCT after stopping the use of a SERM is vital. I have never used hcg but my hormone levels have returned to normal. However, anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism is always a possibility and studies have proven that aggressive hCG therapy has shown promising results in treating this issue, restoring the natural hormone levels in men with ASIH.
That article was posted in the 90's I believe.
If SERM is still present in your system you could obtain a misleading testosterone level. There have been many people who ran their PCT with their SERM(s) of choice, their hormone levels came back to baseline or even above baseline. Then they have blood work done again a month later only to find out their testosterone levels have decreased significantly.
So the question of when you got blood work done after finishing PCT after stopping the use of a SERM is vital. I have never used hcg but my hormone levels have returned to normal. However, anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism is always a possibility and studies have proven that aggressive hCG therapy has shown promising results in treating this issue, restoring the natural hormone levels in men with ASIH.
IRQ_001
New Member
one more thing Ape for the final draft to ponder upon. Clomid and Nolva have a relatively long half-life, possibly five days. Why are we splitting the dosage into morning and night during PCT?
ApeShitFuckJacked
New Member
I was under the impression that there was no recorded change in TT levels when HCG is administered while TT levels have surpassed 1500ng/dl
Since this is incorrect I will change it. I was not implying that HCG does not stimulate test production only that it's effect is lessened under certain conditions.
Dr scally I understand that pct will vary from individual to individual but for the majority of users here what dosages would you recommend to achieve the most rapid recovery?
Would it be the first PCT protocol I posted?
And I apologize for assuming that protocol was for TRT patients I shouldn't have done that.
I think I'm in a little over my head but this is why I was asking for your input.
I appreciate it thank you.
Since this is incorrect I will change it. I was not implying that HCG does not stimulate test production only that it's effect is lessened under certain conditions.
Dr scally I understand that pct will vary from individual to individual but for the majority of users here what dosages would you recommend to achieve the most rapid recovery?
Would it be the first PCT protocol I posted?
And I apologize for assuming that protocol was for TRT patients I shouldn't have done that.
I think I'm in a little over my head but this is why I was asking for your input.
I appreciate it thank you.
IRQ_001
New Member
but thats not in my case... I did my blood work almost SIX WEEKS after last test E shot with the aforementioned dosage and duration of clomid and nolva only.
IRQ_001
New Member
In addition to your question..wouldn't the rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA? Doesn't this actually worsens the recovery situation? There sure seems (to my humble knowledge) a point to hCG DURING cycle...Dr. Scally? Anyone?
ApeShitFuckJacked
New Member
Proper PCT Protocol
PCT should only begin when the body is in an environment to stimulate LH and FSH secretion. In the case of testosterone this environment is achieved once TT begins to dip below pre cycle TT levels. Therefore not only to judge when pct has been successful but also to determine when pct should begin Pre-cycle blood levels should be taken.
How do we determine when TT levels fall below baseline aside from experiencing side effects or getting blood drawn every week?
As we know TT is directly related with the amount of exogenous testosterone we administer. In TRT studies it is generally excepted that a 100mg shot of testosterone enanthate/cyp will put blood levels at around 800-900ng/dl.
We can thus use this conversion with decent accuracy to judge at what mg TT levels will fall below baseline. (The conversion ratio somewhat lessens as doses increase therefore we should air on the side of caution when determining the optimal test mg target)
For example if pre-cycle levels are 500ng/dl then PCT should only begin when exogenous test falls to roughly 50mg. This will put TT in the 400-500ng/dl range and thus in a state where HPTA stimulation of FSH and LH release begins to become possible.
Now that we understand how to determine optimal Mg range of ex Test for HPTA restoration we must now find the length of time required to reach said levels after the last injection. To do this we must first understand Half lives of the varying esters and the variation they can have with each individual's physiology. Some users metabolize AAS more quickly or more slowly than others therefore we can only identify an average. Ill give one practical example of the commonly used ester Enanthate.
Enanthate has a half life of 5 days +/- 2.5 days (I will use a 7 day calculation to air on the side of caution)
A 12wk cycle of test e at 500mg per week will put ex Test at around 1000mg
(500mg+250+125+62.5+31.25 etc = 1000mg)
This means it will take 5 half lives to reach ex test at or below 50mg therefore time between last injection and start of PCT is 35 days.
It would be worthwhile to determine your own metabolization rate by taking a blood test after the 4th AVERAGE half life has passed. (In this case it would be at 20 days) If TT levels are significantly above or below 400-500ng/dl you can determine YOUR half life.
Now that we understand how to accurately calculate a PCT start date based on our own physiology, what should an effective pct consist of?
HCG may be used during cycle and is consider to be a better option by many. There is a bill Roberts article that you may refer to on the subject. If you did not use HCG during your cycle
Here is a variation of Dr. Scally's PCT protocol for AAS users
Days
1-14 HCG 2000 IU E3D
1-35 Clomiphene 50mg morning and night
1-45 Tamoxifen 20mg morning and night
This PCT will give you the best chance at achieving and maintaining pre cycle TT levels rapidly after cessation of treatment for most AAS cycles under 20 weeks. PCT requirements vary depending on the user and mainly length of shutdown.
Post pct bloods should be taken approximately 2-3 weeks after cessation of treatment to ensure restoration has been achieved without further aid from SERM's. If restoration has not been achieved consult a physician.
A largely overlooked factor that can greatly aid in maintaining gains, reducing HPTA shutdown length or extending a cycle without lengthening HPTA shutdown is switching from Long ester AAS to short ester AAS toward the end of the cycle. When done correctly this reduces the amount of time that users must wait to start PCT and increases the amount of time TT levels stay supra-physiological.
Here is a practical example of how to perform a switch to Test P from Test E
for a 12 week cycle.
First we must calculate our pct start date. For this example we will be using 750mg test e a week. With Ex test at about 1500 5 half lives have to pass to reach below 50mg. A PCT start date of 35 days is again warranted. Therefore we will start test p injections 35 days or 5 weeks before the end of the cycle.
Week 1-7 Test e 750mg
Week 8 Test p 400mg
Week 9 Test p 600mg
Week 10-12 Test p 700mg
Test p half life 2 days +/- 18hours (I will use a 2.5 day calculation)
PCT start 7 days (28 days shorter!!!)
Tapering the test p injections upward in this fashion will ensure that TT levels do not spike dramatically when the shorter more quickly metabolized half life is introduced.
Is this better? I took out the deca study because I honestly cannot find the full study again and I'm tired of searching.
PCT should only begin when the body is in an environment to stimulate LH and FSH secretion. In the case of testosterone this environment is achieved once TT begins to dip below pre cycle TT levels. Therefore not only to judge when pct has been successful but also to determine when pct should begin Pre-cycle blood levels should be taken.
How do we determine when TT levels fall below baseline aside from experiencing side effects or getting blood drawn every week?
As we know TT is directly related with the amount of exogenous testosterone we administer. In TRT studies it is generally excepted that a 100mg shot of testosterone enanthate/cyp will put blood levels at around 800-900ng/dl.
We can thus use this conversion with decent accuracy to judge at what mg TT levels will fall below baseline. (The conversion ratio somewhat lessens as doses increase therefore we should air on the side of caution when determining the optimal test mg target)
For example if pre-cycle levels are 500ng/dl then PCT should only begin when exogenous test falls to roughly 50mg. This will put TT in the 400-500ng/dl range and thus in a state where HPTA stimulation of FSH and LH release begins to become possible.
Now that we understand how to determine optimal Mg range of ex Test for HPTA restoration we must now find the length of time required to reach said levels after the last injection. To do this we must first understand Half lives of the varying esters and the variation they can have with each individual's physiology. Some users metabolize AAS more quickly or more slowly than others therefore we can only identify an average. Ill give one practical example of the commonly used ester Enanthate.
Enanthate has a half life of 5 days +/- 2.5 days (I will use a 7 day calculation to air on the side of caution)
A 12wk cycle of test e at 500mg per week will put ex Test at around 1000mg
(500mg+250+125+62.5+31.25 etc = 1000mg)
This means it will take 5 half lives to reach ex test at or below 50mg therefore time between last injection and start of PCT is 35 days.
It would be worthwhile to determine your own metabolization rate by taking a blood test after the 4th AVERAGE half life has passed. (In this case it would be at 20 days) If TT levels are significantly above or below 400-500ng/dl you can determine YOUR half life.
Now that we understand how to accurately calculate a PCT start date based on our own physiology, what should an effective pct consist of?
HCG may be used during cycle and is consider to be a better option by many. There is a bill Roberts article that you may refer to on the subject. If you did not use HCG during your cycle
Here is a variation of Dr. Scally's PCT protocol for AAS users
Days
1-14 HCG 2000 IU E3D
1-35 Clomiphene 50mg morning and night
1-45 Tamoxifen 20mg morning and night
This PCT will give you the best chance at achieving and maintaining pre cycle TT levels rapidly after cessation of treatment for most AAS cycles under 20 weeks. PCT requirements vary depending on the user and mainly length of shutdown.
Post pct bloods should be taken approximately 2-3 weeks after cessation of treatment to ensure restoration has been achieved without further aid from SERM's. If restoration has not been achieved consult a physician.
A largely overlooked factor that can greatly aid in maintaining gains, reducing HPTA shutdown length or extending a cycle without lengthening HPTA shutdown is switching from Long ester AAS to short ester AAS toward the end of the cycle. When done correctly this reduces the amount of time that users must wait to start PCT and increases the amount of time TT levels stay supra-physiological.
Here is a practical example of how to perform a switch to Test P from Test E
for a 12 week cycle.
First we must calculate our pct start date. For this example we will be using 750mg test e a week. With Ex test at about 1500 5 half lives have to pass to reach below 50mg. A PCT start date of 35 days is again warranted. Therefore we will start test p injections 35 days or 5 weeks before the end of the cycle.
Week 1-7 Test e 750mg
Week 8 Test p 400mg
Week 9 Test p 600mg
Week 10-12 Test p 700mg
Test p half life 2 days +/- 18hours (I will use a 2.5 day calculation)
PCT start 7 days (28 days shorter!!!)
Tapering the test p injections upward in this fashion will ensure that TT levels do not spike dramatically when the shorter more quickly metabolized half life is introduced.
Is this better? I took out the deca study because I honestly cannot find the full study again and I'm tired of searching.
Last edited:
Total rubbish based on conjecture. It's bro lore. The studies recently posted on nandrolone found a correlation between the metabolites and HPTA inhibition. The scientific evidence should always be given precedence over conjecture or speculation.
Regards
CBS
ApeShitFuckJacked
New Member
I'm still taking the study out because I cannot find the original.
if anyone wants to post links to a deca HPTA study I would be happy to read it and possibly include it in the final draft. At this point though I am done researching shit for a few weeks haha.
IRQ_001
New Member
Looks good but it would be great if Dr. Scally can come back and give us a general profile of the individuals he treats as well as his response to Roberts protocol when it comes to using hCG for recovery.
You should not apologize at all! You're the one putting this all together, lol, and you're taking everyone's input very well. Thank you for having the balls (no pun intended) to do this.
I don't think I have the answer on this one, and since I'm not on my laptop, I can't cite anything, but I think since hCG is stimulating natural testosterone production in the body, it isn't shutting anything down - quite the opposite, actually; I believe it makes sure you're still functional when otherwise you would be shut down. Again, no cites right now, but I think that's my general understanding.
If your Estrogen rises and your not taking a serm to block the Estrogen receptors it will inhibit your HPTA,this is how serms work at raising your T levels by making your HPTA think its low on estrogen.It will help if you use a serm while your using HCG to help prevent gyno and other E2 side effects.Plus its already in your system to help your T Production when your Hcg and exo Test are out of your system.
IRQ_001
New Member
I didn't say that hCG DIRECTLY causes the shutdown, but rather the administration of hCG that promotes aromatization ... and therefore a negative effect on the HPTA.
IRQ_001
New Member
great answer...this is perhaps why Dr. Scally mentioned that hCG should be used with SERMs for PCT.
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