PCT - Lets get it ironed out (Dr Scally?)

[tubesox]

I didn't say that hCG DIRECTLY causes the shutdown, but rather the administration of hCG that promotes aromatization ... and therefore a negative effect on the HPTA.

and this is the reason you give 5 days after last HCG pin to start PCT.........

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

If your Estrogen rises and your not taking a serm to block the Estrogen receptors it will inhibit your HPTA,this is how serms work at raising your T levels by making your HPTA think its low on estrogen.It will help if you use a serm while your using HCG to help prevent gyno and other E2 side effects.Plus its already in your system to help your T Production when your Hcg and exo Test are out of your system.

This is what I thought originally and that's why I had them running in the same week. Also since you and dr scally have stated that ex test levels do not have an effect on HCG stimulation wouldn't it be more beneficial to start the HCG blast a week or so before the calculated start date while still beginning the SERM on the start date ie at 50mg ex test.

For example,

HCG 2000iu E3D one week before pct

Start PCT

HCG 2000iu E3D 1-7
Clomid 100mg 1-35
Nolva 40mg 1-45

In my head at least this allows more time for Nolva and clomid to take their full effect while still achieving the same benefits from HCG because HCG is inhibiting HPTA function through increased e2 feedback for a shorter period of time during pct.

Which brings me to another notion I have previously mentioned. Wouldn't a low dose AI be beneficial during pct to not only aid in the recovery during pct but after as well?

Assuming treatment was successful once you come off the SERM's a high level of estrogen will be present due to the increased TT level above your natural baseline.

Therefore use of an ai would help maintain recovery because e2 levels would essentially be baseline it's opposed to elevated after cessation of treatment?

If so should this be added in or is it too insignificant?

 

[IRQ_001]

and this is the reason you give 5 days after last HCG pin to start PCT.........

hmmm interesting! But like others said, the SERMs will block the estrogen and therefore why would it matter?

 

[tubesox]

hmmm interesting! But like others said, the SERMs will block the estrogen and therefore why would it matter?

there are so many different theories on how to run HCG, I prefer Bill Roberts approach..it makes the most sense to me

 

[IRQ_001]

For example,

HCG 2000iu E3D one week before pct

Start PCT

HCG 2000iu E3D 1-7
Clomid 100mg 1-35
Nolva 40mg 1-45

Is this a typo? Did you mean to say:

For example,

HCG 2000iu E3D one week before pct

Start PCT

HCG 2000iu E3D 1-7
Clomid 100mg 8-35
Nolva 40mg 8-45

If this is the case, if one is to use a dose of 750mg/wk of test E followed by Test P, HCG would start the next day after last Test P injection.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Is this a typo? Did you mean to say:

For example,

HCG 2000iu E3D one week before pct

Start PCT

HCG 2000iu E3D 1-7
Clomid 100mg 8-35
Nolva 40mg 8-45

If this is the case, if one is to use a dose of 750mg/wk of test E followed by Test P, HCG would start the next day after last Test P injection.

No it is not a typo clomid and Nolva should be run with the HCG. Yes you are correct. It would start the next day. This would be the best way to do an HCG blast based on the evidence that I am aware of thus far. But It probably won't make that much difference at all to be completely honest.

 

[tubesox]

hmmm interesting! But like others said, the SERMs will block the estrogen and therefore why would it matter?

here's what Bill Roberts has to say:

Post-cycle recovery of LH production requires androgen levels to have fallen back into the physiological range. With use of medium or long-acting esters, this is a slow process. For example, let’s suppose that a given testosterone ester’s half-life is 7 days, and that 800 mg/week was used during the cycle. If so, then one week after the last injection, levels will be similar to what they would be if 400 mg had been taken weekly for some time, and with another 400 mg having just been injected. At the two week point after the last injection, levels will be commensurate with ongoing 200 mg/week use.
This is without using HCG during this period.
By this point, ordinarily some recovery could begin with use of Clomid or Nolvadex.
But if HCG were used during this time, or started at this point, testosterone levels would be similar not to those of ongoing 200 mg/week usage, but to that level plus another 100-200 mg/week of equivalent increase from HCG. This would interfere with recovery of LH production.

 

[tubesox]

The better plan is, if using HCG, to employ it during a cycle to maintain testicular function so that the testes will be responsive to LH as soon as its production is restored. There will also be the advantages of maintaining testicle size and of providing some additional testosterone via HCG-stimulated production.

 

[Dr JIM]

Where did I say the recovery of that 23 year old would be "EASY". That's not what I posted.

I said uneventful, and the emphasis being WHY PCT is useful, to start another cycle to "lessen gains if you prefer".

Why is all that important because ALL those gains are lost REGARDLESS if AAS are discontinued.

If you look at APEs protocol the SERM and HCG are run sequentially FOR WEEKS rather than one week as you seem to be suggesting.

I have a problem with that, because running HCG and a SERM in unison are in fact counterproductive because HCG raises BOTH TT and E-2 thereby negating the usefulness of the SERM.

Jim

 

[TheGuy85]

That makes me think u got bloods right after u finished PCT since u said u started PCT 2 weeks after last pin. So add the four weeks of PCT and that comes to 6 weeks. You have to look at the half-life of the SERM or SERMs used and get a rough estimate of when it is no longer active in your body and then get blood work. I believe the recommendation is to wait at least 3 half-lives after last dose to get bloods (someone please elaborate on this). So if half life is 5 days you would wait atleast 15 days after last dose to get bloods.

 

[IRQ_001]

That makes me think u got bloods right after u finished PCT since u said u started PCT 2 weeks after last pin. So add the four weeks of PCT and that comes to 6 weeks. You have to look at the half-life of the SERM or SERMs used and get a rough estimate of when it is no longer active in your body and then get blood work. I believe the recommendation is to wait at least 3 half-lives after last dose to get bloods (someone please elaborate on this). So if half life is 5 days you would wait atleast 15 days after last dose to get bloods.

no bro, that's not what I said. have a look at my earlier post. I said the last day of PCT (meaning last pills of clomid and nolva) were on February 15th. I just had my results a week ago. Therefore, was almost 6 weeks after COMPLETION of PCT.

 

[IRQ_001]

and yes, the start of my PCT was a too early, but regardless of that fact... PCT was long done before I did my tests. In fact, if you think about it, my recovery shouldn't have been this good given that I started PCT too early.

 

[Dr JIM]

There is only ONE REASON to run HCG and a SERM in unison, and that would be to "load the SERM" to therapeutic levels which requires a few days depending upon the dose used.

If there is another legitimate reason by all means post it

Jim

 

[tubesox]

There is only ONE REASON to run HCG and a SERM in unison, and that would be to "load the SERM" to therapeutic levels which requires a few days depending upon the dose used.

If there is another legitimate reason by all means post it

Jim

balls won't drop?

 

[Archimedes]

Which brings me to another notion I have previously mentioned. Wouldn't a low dose AI be beneficial during pct to not only aid in the recovery during pct but after as well?

Well that's the other option to this whole thread. Bill Roberts seems to advocate that during the PCT cycle with Aromasin.

" I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle."

This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.
Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

He seems also to question clomid a bit...

But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.

 

[Dr JIM]

Don't believe cryptorchidism patients use SERMS TS, lol!

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Arghhhhhh ok so either run HCG 500iu E3D during cycle

Or

HCG 2000iu E3D 2 weeks before pct start

And Regardless SERMs start on the calculated date for 50mg ex test.

This is what I'm going with.

Any objections?

 

[Dr JIM]

Regardless of the methods involved for effective PCT, the TT will have to fall to below pre-cycle levels before SERM related PCT is effective.

Therefore the choices are relatively straightforward, one can cease using the HCG and begin SERMS thereafter or you can load the SERM while taking HCG.

I prefer the former. Why? Because HCG has a half life of roughly 48 hours and at the doses used for PCT the TT will NOT fall to below pre-cycle levels for AT LEAST ONE WEEK after it's discontinued.

IMO SERMs therapy should begin immediately after HCG use has ceased. The latter allows a one week interval of "SERM loading". which is more than adequate.

Jim

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

Thanks dr I'm going to go with that last post I made then.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

There is only ONE REASON to run HCG and a SERM in unison, and that would be to "load the SERM" to therapeutic levels which requires a few days depending upon the dose used.

If there is another legitimate reason by all means post it

Jim

Actually, there is one very good reason to take them concurrently. This has been written before. And, physicians are very aware of this reason. In fact, it is referred to indirectly in some of the posts. Take a shot.

And, the loading happens to be critical for the success of PCT. But, more on that later.