PCT - Lets get it ironed out (Dr Scally?)

[Michael Scally MD]

Let me help you out since you forgot to include your post and mine.

I do not care if you use the word uneventful or easily. IF uneventful IS experiencing hypogonadism with the symptoms that occur, loss of all anabolic gains, and an unknown period for recovery, then I agree it is uneventful. And, this is even with three (3) AAS. It is NO surprise you forgot to include the posts since the implication for no PCT is bat shit crazy!

I've said it MANY times before (and I know DOC agrees) PCT should NOT be etched in stone! The treatment can and should vary based on the needs of a patent.

Dr Scally's protocol is tailored more towards the worst case scenario which is why his treatment is indeed aggressive. But that is EXACTLY waht someone needs who has been on AAS for several years, no doubt about it!

Understand a 23 year old who cycles 3 AAS for 12 weeks will likely have an uneventful recovery WITHOUT PCT. Thats right WITHOUT PCT! God forbid WTF Dr Jim that's the antithesis of what we have been told, taught and learned, NOT, NOT, NOT!!! (Did Arnie have any of these PCT drugs? Very few if any, they "cruised", lol)

What PCT will accomplish however is a more rapid restoration of the HTPA thus enabling a user to start another cycle SOONER.

That's important because uninterupted AAS use screws up the HTPA (probably thru reestablishing another set point for LH secretion, much like what is believed to occur in the "the elderly" patient) for a considerable period of time and some of those folks end up on TRT, at least for a while.

So if your asking is your suggestion for the drugs and their dosages are GTG in someone post a three to four drug cycle, sure it looks fine to me.

jim

Then that person will likely lose most of the gains from AAS use. Further, to make the claim that 3 AAS will lead to recovery easily is not a risk worth taking. Where do you find any support for such a statement. I agree with the use of testosterone alone (male contraceptive studies), but 3 AAS! ND is one of these AAS that will cause problems.

And, to assume recovery is one of the biggest errors any AAS user makes.
Further, to say that PCT allows one to start another cycle sooner is not without great risk. HPTA Function is NOT HPTA Restoration.

As far as older BB, clomiphene has been around since the 60s. hCG for a very long time. And, they did much shorter cycles. IIRC, they did not use the AAS doses employed today. So, any comparison is speculative at best.

There are no well controlled studies for ASIH. Actually, it is basically impossible to conduct such studies. But, with the recent publication and editorial on ASIH, there is the hope that more will treat leading to better treatments.

Where did I say the recovery of that 23 year old would be "EASY". That's not what I posted.

I said uneventful, and the emphasis being WHY PCT is useful, to start another cycle to "lessen gains if you prefer".

Why is all that important because ALL those gains are lost REGARDLESS if AAS are discontinued.

If you look at APEs protocol the SERM and HCG are run sequentially FOR WEEKS rather than one week as you seem to be suggesting.

I have a problem with that, because running HCG and a SERM in unison are in fact counterproductive because HCG raises BOTH TT and E-2 thereby negating the usefulness of the SERM.

Jim

 

[Michael Scally MD]

No Doc I did not obtain on cycle serum T. However, my LH came back normal-high as per last week's results.

The PCT [2 weeks after last pin] is by far the PCT most described for those presenting with hypogonadism. I do wonder about the dosing since it appears you were finished with the SERMs at just about the time one would expect the exogenous testosterone to be at a point for optimal SERM use. Since they will be present for some time after stopping the values are reasonable.

One concern I have is the high LH indicative of SERM effect. Once this "levels" out, what will be the serum testosterone.

Another point is the length of time where the testes are not functioning. Is this good or bad long-term. Male contraceptive studies provide an indirect idea, but they measure spermatogenesis, not serum testosterone. The only analogous studies to investigate the recovery from AAS are the trials that have used T as a male contraceptive agent. The largest and longest study by Gu et al. in 2009 demonstrated that after a loading dose of 1,000 mg of T IM and 500 mg once a month for 30 months, the median recovery time for sperm production to the patient's baseline after cessation of the treatment alone was 182 days. And, spermatogenesis takes place with low testosterone, very low testosterone.

The term "overkill" is a bit odd. Are you looking for the minimal amount for PCT? That would seem to be more risky than "overkill." By "overkill," what is the downside?

More later ...

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

I don't believe that there is any harm in "overkill" but if doses are lets say twice what is necessary for those who cycle AAS correctly then i would rather suggest slightly lower doses (but still higher than what is normally needed) so that more users follow through with such a protocol and save some money while recovery is still made at the same rate and to the same extent.

But if you believe lower doses will encompass somewhat less AAS CYCLER's
Than I would obviously not suggest any lower doses.

This is why I asked.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I don't believe that there is any harm in "overkill" but if doses are lets say twice what is necessary for those who cycle AAS correctly then i would rather suggest slightly lower doses (but still higher than what is normally needed) so that more users follow through with such a protocol and save some money while recovery is still made at the same rate and to the same extent.

But if you believe lower doses will encompass somewhat less AAS CYCLER's
Than I would obviously not suggest any lower doses.

This is why I asked.

I think the bottom line (and which you seem to be saying) is there needs to be more studies on ASIH treatments (a/k/a PCT). I hope this will be forthcoming. The recent literature is showing an awakening to this area.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

I am by no means looking for the minimal amount of pct but rather the greatest amount of pct for AAS cyclers. Certainly there comes a point where doses surpass anything any cycler would need. (Not TRT patients or AAS abusers who have not come off for a year or more)

So my question remains at what doses do benefits stagnate?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

FYI - NO PCT. This is a very large study in male contraception. The dose are less than a typical AAS cycle. Although rare, two patients took 450 days for spermatogenesis recovery. That is NOT serum testosterone. The analogy (partial) is the total days for HPTA shutdown for long-term HPTA Restoration.

NOTE: HPTA FUNCTION IS NOT HPTA RESTORATION.

Gu Y, Liang X, Wu W, Liu M, Song S, Cheng L, et al. Multicenter contraceptive efficacy trial of injectable testosterone undecanoate in Chinese men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2009;94:1910–5. http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2008-1846

Context: Hormonal male contraceptive regimens effectively and reversibly suppress sperm production, but there are few large-scale efficacy studies.

Objective: The safety, contraceptive efficacy, reversibility, and feasibility of injectable testosterone undecanoate (TU) in tea seed oil as a hormonal male contraceptive was assessed.

Design: This was a multicenter, phase III, contraceptive efficacy clinical trial.

Participants: A total of 1045 healthy fertile Chinese men were recruited throughout China into the study.

Intervention(s): Injections of 500 mg TU were administered monthly for 30 months. A definition of severe oligozoospermia (?1 × 106/ml) was used as a criterion of spermatogenic suppression and as the threshold for entering the contraceptive efficacy phase.

Main Outcome Measure(s): The primary outcome was pregnancy rate in the partner. Other outcomes include: semen parameters, testis volumes, reproductive hormone levels, and safety laboratory tests.

Results: Forty-three participants (4.8%) did not achieve azoospermia or severe oligozoospermia within the 6-month suppression phase. A total of 855 participants entered into the efficacy phase, and 733 participants completed monthly TU treatment and follow-up. There were nine pregnancies in 1554.1 person-years of exposure in the 24-month efficacy phase for a cumulative contraceptive failure rate of 1.1 per 100 men. The combined method failure rate was 6.1%, comprising 4.8% with inadequate suppression and 1.3% with postsuppression sperm rebound. No serious adverse events were reported. Spermatogenesis returned to the normal fertile reference range in all but two participants.

Conclusions: Monthly injection of 500 mg TU provides safe, effective, reversible, and reliable contraception in a high proportion of healthy fertile Chinese men.

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

I see thank you dr. So I have decided to incorporate this PCT in the final draft

HCG 500iu e3d during cycle

Or

HCG 2000iu e3d for 14 days starting 14 days before PCT

PCT

Days
1-35 clomid 100mg
1-45 nolva 40mg

Any objections?

 

[msanchez]

there are so many different theories on how to run HCG, I prefer Bill Roberts approach..it makes the most sense to me

I agree, I use his approach as it makes sense to me and it has worked well for many people, including myself.

 

[Dr JIM]

Why do you insist on splitting hairs?

Who does it benefit?

Such as HTPA restoration is NOT the same as FUNCTION!

Duh you can't have one without the other can you?

Second the comparison I again was attempting to make was a 23 year old who did a SINGLE CYCLE their recovery would be uneventful, and that's a FACT, period!

Now if you read down a little further in my post you just MAY notice a comparison, which was those individuals who cycled for years, their recovery could very well become problematic absent PCT.

Is your OPINION the ONLY opinion? Must you always be above reproach?

Is it impossible for you to work with those who have differing opinions? (obviously)

Well Dr S your way of doing things is NOT etched in stone either so get over it, would you and move on!

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Nobody is splitting hairs. So, your argument is to not address the point. Uneventful! TOTAL BS! The benefit is to the Meso Members, most especially to anyone that might heed the idea to use 3 AAS and NO PCT. And, where is your support for this UNEVENTFUL recovery. This is all in your mind. Again, BAT SHIT CRAZY!

You are the one having a hard time defending your position.
You can whine all you want.

Why do you insist on splitting hairs?

Who does it benefit?

Such as HTPA restoration is NOT the same as FUNCTION!

Duh you can't have one without the other can you?

Second the comparison I again was attempting to make was a 23 year old who did a SINGLE CYCLE their recovery would be uneventful, and that's a FACT, period!

Now if you read down a little further in my post you just MAY notice a comparison, which was those individuals who cycled for years, their recovery could very well become problematic absent PCT.

Is your OPINION the ONLY opinion? Must you always be above reproach?

Is it impossible for you to work with those who have differing opinions? (obviously)

Well Dr S your way of doing things is NOT etched in stone either so get over it, would you and move on!

 

[ApeShitFuckJacked]

So no objections? Lol?

 

[Dr JIM]

Oh do tell then what is MY POSITION oh omnipotent one, BAT SHIT CRAZY!

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Such as HTPA restoration is NOT the same as FUNCTION!

Duh you can't have one without the other can you?

The point is you can have one without the other. That is the important and critical fact for health. What are you saying?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

There is only ONE REASON to run HCG and a SERM in unison, and that would be to "load the SERM" to therapeutic levels which requires a few days depending upon the dose used.

If there is another legitimate reason by all means post it

Jim

Actually, there is one very good reason to take them concurrently. This has been written before. And, physicians are very aware of this reason. In fact, it is referred to indirectly in some of the posts. Take a shot.

And, the loading happens to be critical for the success of PCT. But, more on that later.

Care to take a chance at answering?

 

[Dr JIM]

Your "speaking in tongues" that like saying you can drive a car that won't start, lol!

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Oh do tell then what is MY POSITION oh omnipotent one, BAT SHIT CRAZY!

Your "speaking in tongues" that like saying you can drive a car that won't start, lol!

This is typical for you. Unable to debate, you resort to ad hominem posts. And, clearly you have a problem debating a point. The use of the word "omnipotent" is how you see yourself, which is evident by your posts that bully, berate, name call, and more. Should we post the proof? Being challenged shake you up a bit!

 

[tubesox]

wow, we've got a whole new thread category and two Dr.'s going head to head...what's going to happen next?

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Care to take a chance at answering?

Compliance.

 

[Dr JIM]

Oh really then WHY don't you answer MY question since you know MY POSITION.

My point is on several occasions you have deliberately misrepresented my positions seeing and adversary in the mirror, so what's my position!

You did this same crap during our last debate on TRT remember that?

I do, you departed shortly thereafter!

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Oh really then WHY don't you answer MY question since you know MY POSITION.

My point is on several occasions you have deliberately misrepresented my positions seeing and adversary in the mirror, so what's my position!

You did this same crap during our last debate on TRT remember that?

I do, you departed shortly thereafter!

Your position was as stated in the posts. You do not wish to defend them since they are without support and harmful. You do have some problems being challenged.

I departed for a welcomed break from being a mod for a number of years. I said my part on the hypogonadism debate to which you never defended as here. You are lost when it comes to being challenged. You have the typical doctor complex. It is so glaringly obvious. You resort to name calling, bullying, condescension, and more.

Would you like some simple proof?