MESO-Rx Exclusive Peter Bond on blood pressure and anabolic steroids

[rfan2020]

I think anybody who run AAS should run some sort of blood pressure meds

This is one of the worst statements ive ever seen and in a nut shell what is wrong with modern bodybuilding forums, glad to see most do not share this view

No one should ever accept a life of needing medication just for their organs to not fail them

Measures can and always should be taken to not need blood pressure meds, don't puff up, don't have a huge BMI, don't get fat, do cardio, eat clean, drop your dosage or if needed, don't run AAS. Puffing up I hopes of being 240lbs , incorrectly thinking body the will get a look from the milf on the treadmill (it wont) is stupid

The posts I see on forums that make me roll my eyes more than any other are the amount of guys hoping on these meds or asking what they can do because they fucked their dick up and it won't function anymore, too many guys bulked up too much and now their heart and/or dick can't even function

Overall excited to read the article....high BP/abuse of prescription medication, using dumbass supplements (bcaa, carb powders, creatinine) that do nothing....taking anti estrogens for no reason at all,,,,and fatasses using DNP because they refuse to stop being hungry hungry hippo....are 3 things that plague AAS forums IMO

 

[Skarpyona]

For sure. 130/80 is by no means “good”. Off cycle it’s usually around 120/75. Not fantastic but decent.

I’ve had a few people talk up celery seed extract, so I might give that a go when the gyms open up and I run my super bulk.

When my BP spiked because of tren and stess, I ran just about every supplement I could get my hands on, including celery seed extract.

It personally didn't make a dent in my BP. It's so cheap you may as well give it a try.

Beet root powder did help drop a few points, in addition to having a multitude of health benefits. Might be worth looking into for you

 

[GuerillaPete]

So following this logic one should not take metformin if not type 2 diabetic?
And not take testosterone if not suffering from hypogonadism ?
Hope you follow your advice!
I said enalapril specifically lowers hematocrit not others and this has been shown in rats as it makes them anemic.
Some steroids where are used to treat anemia so they raise hematocrit.
Telmisartan does protect against LV not only from blood pressure also from hgh wich many take .
Believe you me my advice is good so you can put down the torches and pitchforks.
If you listen to the video you might understand that it has lots of benefits beside lowering blood pressure.
Iv been taking it for years and it has enhanced my life this is the goal for taking anything.
And by the way another shocker salt is good for athlets.

 

[GuerillaPete]

Just for the record and im out….
The most common problems in bodybuilding hypertension , kidney disease , LV heart enlargement , fatty liver disease , arterial plaque buildup can be prevented by taking a telmisartan at night and you are saying its stupid to do so?

 

[Test_Subject]

And by the way another shocker salt is good for athlets.

While not untrue, the average North American gets way, way more salt than they could ever possibly need for athletic performance from all of the processed crap that we eat.

 

[GuerillaPete]

Bodybuilder should not eat processed foods tho.

View: https://youtu.be/1Tp4EWfE05Y

Another video on kidney protection from telmisartan

 

[Ss99]

Why?

Do you not subscribe to the belief that AT2 elevation and subsequent increases in aldosterone from supraphysiological dosages of AAS are enough reason to use an ARB/ACE-I? Just curious on your thoughts on the subject as you’re one of the few people who’s content I follow and I enjoyed reading your book as well. This is one of those areas where I tend to follow Victor Blacks line of thinking even though I know that you two don’t particularly get along lol

 

[PeterBond]

Do you not subscribe to the belief that AT2 elevation and subsequent increases in aldosterone from supraphysiological dosages of AAS are enough reason to use an ARB/ACE-I? Just curious on your thoughts on the subject as you’re one of the few people who’s content I follow and I enjoyed reading your book as well. This is one of those areas where I tend to follow Victor Blacks line of thinking even though I know that you two don’t particularly get along lol

Overactivity of RAAS would also express itself in increased blood pressure. There's no clinical evidence to indicate that ARBs or ACE inhibitors in the absence of increased blood pressure mitigate the (mal)adaptive cardiac response to AAS usage.

(And not everyone using AAS shows changes in the function or structure of the heart.)

 

[malfeasance]

While not untrue, the average North American gets way, way more salt than they could ever possibly need for athletic performance from all of the processed crap that we eat.

Please tell me bodybuilders are not eating "processed crap."

 

[Test_Subject]

Everybody is, unfortunately. Salt is in damn near everything that you buy in the grocery store. Sauces are especially bad. Anything that comes in a box has salt added. Anything in a can.

Ronnie Coleman was famous for his appetite for breaded chicken strips and BBQ sauce.

 

[GuerillaPete]

Overactivity of RAAS would also express itself in increased blood pressure. There's no clinical evidence to indicate that ARBs or ACE inhibitors in the absence of increased blood pressure mitigate the (mal)adaptive cardiac response to AAS usage.

(And not everyone using AAS shows changes in the function or structure of the heart.

Just curious have you ever blasted steroids?

 

[Jet Labs]

Everybody is, unfortunately. Salt is in damn near everything that you buy in the grocery store. Sauces are especially bad. Anything that comes in a box has salt added. Anything in a can.

Ronnie Coleman was famous for his appetite for breaded chicken strips and BBQ sauce.

I seen vids of Ronnie eating chicken breast strips with bbq sauce, but never those breaded ones. As for avoiding salt it's not that hard especially If you're trying to eat healthy. My examples below.

Low sodium tuna with homemade mayo and homemade wholewheat bread.

Plain chicken breast with plain rice or plain fish with plain rice.

Ground turkey with whole wheat pasta with homemade alfredo sauce/tomato sauce.

Eggs with oats or wholewheat bread.

 

[Test_Subject]

I seen vids of Ronnie eating chicken breast strips with bbq sauce, but never those breaded ones. As for avoiding salt it's not that hard especially If you're trying to eat healthy. My examples below.

Low sodium tuna with homemade mayo and homemade wholewheat bread.

Plain chicken breast with plain rice or plain fish with plain rice.

Ground turkey with whole wheat pasta with homemade alfredo sauce/tomato sauce.

Eggs with oats or wholewheat bread.

Oh for sure you can do it. But most people don’t even realize how much salt they’re eating in the first place.

Even with a low sodium diet, I’d be amazed if someone ran into a sodium deficiency that would actually impact their athletic performance.

We’re bodybuilding not running marathons. If you’re doing triathlons etc., sure, low sodium could be an issue.

 

[rfan2020]

So following this logic one should not take metformin if not type 2 diabetic?
And not take testosterone if not suffering from hypogonadism ?
Hope you follow your advice!
I said enalapril specifically lowers hematocrit not others and this has been shown in rats as it makes them anemic.
Some steroids where are used to treat anemia so they raise hematocrit.
Telmisartan does protect against LV not only from blood pressure also from hgh wich many take .
Believe you me my advice is good so you can put down the torches and pitchforks.
If you listen to the video you might understand that it has lots of benefits beside lowering blood pressure.
Iv been taking it for years and it has enhanced my life this is the goal for taking anything.
And by the way another shocker salt is good for athlets.

the guy who needs test and the guy on metformin fucked them selves some by eating too much carbs and by shutting their little balls down, but the difference, IMO, the guy on blood pressure meds needs to look in the mirror and say

"am I even really in shape, and fit at all? or am I just strong?"
"why am I so fat?" Do I look good or am I just a puffed up permabulker?"
"why do I need to be this big? it it worth what ive done to my health?"

Someone on BP meds has probably pushed the bigorexia too far, or/and, is potentially not even in shape. If a lean ripped guy needed BP meds its either probably genetic, or he is running way more AAS than he needs to grow.

This is why iu would say the guy needing BP meds is probably lost in his bodybuilding journey and out of touch and his health is likely much worse than the guy who needs test the rest or his life or uses metformin to counter insulin resistance.

 

[guimaraes.gerson]

Why would you want it as low as possible? Are you assuming that a lower blood pressure is always a better blood pressure?

While it is true that ACE inhibitors and ARBs can lead to decreases in hematocrit, and AAS usage can increase hematocrit which might increase the risk of trombosis, this is not an argument to always use BP-lowering medication. For one, not all AAS users experience hematocrit increases to the extent that it significantly increases the risk of trombosis. Second, even if it does, this risk needs to be weighed against the risks of a potential form of treatment. (Mild increases in hematocrit in low-risk populations, especially otherwise healthy nonsmoking young adults, aren't really of concern.) Third, ACE inhibitors and ARBs don't consistently decrease hematocrit. They do so in certain populations in which RAAS activation is an excerbating or causal factor for increased hematocrit. While there are some uncertainties surrounding the mechanism it does so, it converges on an increase in EPO. The AAS-induced increase in hematocrit is most likely due to suppression of hepcidin rather than an increase in EPO. And even in the case of the latter, it's the question whether RAAS activation plays sufficient of a role in this to the extent that ARBs or ACE inhibitors lower hematocrit. There's no evidence to indicate that these drugs lower hematocrit in said population.

While BP-lowering medication can indeed help against certain structural changes of the heart, in particular LV hypertrophy, this is again not to say all AAS users should use BP-lowering medication. First, not all AAS users experience LV hypertrophy. Second, the regression of LV hypertrophy seen with the use of BP-lowering medication is predominatenly due to its BP-lowering effect per se. This can be derived by the fact that all classes of BP-lowering medication lead to regression of LV hypertrophy, and calcium channel blockers showing similar efficacy as ARBs and ACE inhibitors. As such, hypertension is a prerequisite for this to work. And as stated earlier, not all AAS users are hypertensive. Finally, the LV hypertrophy that can be caused by AAS is most likely not, or only to a small extent, the result of increased blood pressure. These changes occur too rapid for that and they coincide with other structural changes that aren't necessarily seen in hypertensive populations. Moreover, the average BP increase due to AAS users is too mild in comparison to the structural changes of the heart that are seen.

As such, I feel it's misguided to say that all AAS users should use some form of BP-lowering medication.

Hello,
I read that olmesartan and dutasteride can lower hematocrit is this true?

 

[PeterBond]

Hello,
I read that olmesartan and dutasteride can lower hematocrit is this true?

Dutasteride: no, The effect of 5alpha-reductase inhibition with dutasteride and finasteride on bone mineral density, serum lipoproteins, hemoglobin, prostate specific antigen and sexual function in healthy young men - PubMed
Olmesartan is an ARB, so under the conditions mentioned in the post you quote.

 

[guimaraes.gerson]

Dutasteride: no, The effect of 5alpha-reductase inhibition with dutasteride and finasteride on bone mineral density, serum lipoproteins, hemoglobin, prostate specific antigen and sexual function in healthy young men - PubMed
Olmesartan is an ARB, so under the conditions mentioned in the post you quot

Dutasteride: no, The effect of 5alpha-reductase inhibition with dutasteride and finasteride on bone mineral density, serum lipoproteins, hemoglobin, prostate specific antigen and sexual function in healthy young men - PubMed
Olmesartan is an ARB, so under the conditions mentioned in the post you quote.

Are there other substances that can lower or prevent the Hematocrit from increasing during a cycle? Thanks

 

[PeterBond]

Not really. There are some antineoplastic agents which lower hematocrit, such as hydroxycarbamide and busulfan, but it's completely retarded to use these for AAS-induced increases.

 

[guimaraes.gerson]

Not really. There are some antineoplastic agents which lower hematocrit, such as hydroxycarbamide and busulfan, but it's completely retarded to use these for AAS-induced increases.

What do you think about this article

Elevated Dihydrotestosterone is Associated with Testosterone Induced Erythrocytosis - PubMed

Dihydrotestosterone may have a role in testosterone therapy related erythrocytosis and monitoring dihydrotestosterone levels during testosterone therapy should be considered. In men in whom erythrocytosis develops, 5α-reductase inhibitors may be therapeutic.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

DHT increase related to hematocrit

 

[PeterBond]

What do you think about this article

Elevated Dihydrotestosterone is Associated with Testosterone Induced Erythrocytosis - PubMed

Dihydrotestosterone may have a role in testosterone therapy related erythrocytosis and monitoring dihydrotestosterone levels during testosterone therapy should be considered. In men in whom erythrocytosis develops, 5α-reductase inhibitors may be therapeutic.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

DHT increase related to hematocrit

Nothing, I don't care about associative studies (especially retrospective ones) when there are interventional trials available.

In addition to the previous trial I mentioned, also no effect in dosages up to 600 mg weekly: Effect of testosterone supplementation with and without a dual 5α-reductase inhibitor on fat-free mass in men with suppressed testosterone production: a randomized controlled trial - PubMed