pros/cons of HCG with TRT?

[Pericles]

Here is the Cliffs' note version: Ideally, yes, tiny amounts of HCG while on is the best way to go. However, as mentioned, it is a hassle. It is also expensive. The drug companies know that people who want children are desperate and thus keep prices high.

When I help guys w/ their programs I usually have them just run 2k IUs' eod at the end, w/ maybe a blast in the middle as well. Most will do so (except the complete retards who refuse to adhere to advice).

 

[vantage108]

You mean you tried 250 IU HCG as a sub for a T shot as part of an eod IM T protocol?

No, at least not yet. I mean I'm trying the protocol the doc recommended: 250 EOD on top of my usual t-cyp dose. It's an experiment. I'll do 4 weeks and see how it goes.

 

[vantage108]

Here is the Cliffs' note version: Ideally, yes, tiny amounts of HCG while on is the best way to go. However, as mentioned, it is a hassle. It is also expensive. The drug companies know that people who want children are desperate and thus keep prices high.

Duly noted and thanks. Mine is coming from a compounding pharmacy, so it isn't outrageously expensive, and I don't really mind the hassle if the effects are worthwhile. It's an experiment. We'll see what sides emerge.

 

[LW64]

No, at least not yet. I mean I'm trying the protocol the doc recommended: 250 EOD on top of my usual t-cyp dose. It's an experiment. I'll do 4 weeks and see how it goes.

Aha, ok. My prediction:

It works very well when you start because you are LH-deprived and the HCG hitting those receptors is waking up metabolic pathways that have been dormant for a while. Even your E2 will be ok...for about 4 to 8 weeks...then...watch out!

 

[vantage108]

Aha, ok. My prediction:

It works very well when you start because you are LH-deprived and the HCG hitting those receptors is waking up metabolic pathways that have been dormant for a while. Even your E2 will be ok...for about 4 to 8 weeks...then...watch out!

It may very well go that way, and I'm prepared for that. But I'm also curious, and I know from past experience how to recover (and that I will recover) if things go awry. We shall see.

 

[LW64]

It may very well go that way, and I'm prepared for that. But I'm also curious, and I know from past experience how to recover (and that I will recover) if things go awry. We shall see.

Let us know how it goes.

I've been doing eod IM T at a low-dose with intermittent HCG substitution for a few months now and it's working very well so far.

 

[vantage108]

Aha, ok. My prediction:

It works very well when you start because you are LH-deprived and the HCG hitting those receptors is waking up metabolic pathways that have been dormant for a while. Even your E2 will be ok...for about 4 to 8 weeks...then...watch out!

Didn't even take that long.

I'm getting bloods done tomorrow but I'm already leaning toward bagging this experiment. My libido went *down*. Like, significantly. (Happily, my SO is being lovingly patient with all of this so far.)

And while there was an increase in generalized well-being in the first few days, it seems to have faded and left me with... a dull headache. (BP is up a little, but not to the point where it would worry a doc.)

So far, I'm not a fan. But we'll see what the lab says.

 

[zkt]

I`m a fan.
The research perhaps hasnt yet caught up to the reality.

 

[LW64]

Didn't even take that long.

I'm getting bloods done tomorrow but I'm already leaning toward bagging this experiment. My libido went *down*. Like, significantly. (Happily, my SO is being lovingly patient with all of this so far.)

And while there was an increase in generalized well-being in the first few days, it seems to have faded and left me with... a dull headache. (BP is up a little, but not to the point where it would worry a doc.)

So far, I'm not a fan. But we'll see what the lab says.

Now you know why I inject low-dose T eod and substitute a low-dose (250 IUs or 500 IUs) HCG shot for T every now and then.

HCG has a half-life of about 36 hours so, AFAIC, it's a bad idea to take it either on the same days you inject T or on days adjacent to your T injection.

I believe what I'm doing is just about the gentlest HCG addition rate that can be done and, even then, I have to ease up by not doing a substitute shot every week. It's more like every 2 or 3 weeks.

 

[LW64]

I`m a fan.
The research perhaps hasnt yet caught up to the reality.

It will never catch up because Phama doesnt give a shit. No opportunity for a patent means there's no business to be had. Maybe that's why all the evidence in its favor is anecdotal. The lack of formal research means nothing to me - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Once I got the hang of it, HCG has made me feel better on a very consistent basis.

 

[Avies48]

From my past eperiences on both test/hcg and hcg alone it makes me feel awesome, no mood swings depression or anything of that sort, i take 1 25mlg aromasin a day after or 2d after the shot and have felt awesome, no issues that i know of! Yea my e2 did climb and it help raise ur test as well, from my experience anyways!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Deadballs]

Interesting protocol. I am putting myself on TRT soon and will adopt this as blood analysis will be few and far between. This feels like the safest strategy to adopt as I will primarily be going on feeling rather than data. I also want to permanently avoid the need for using an AI.

 

[foreveryoung]

From my past eperiences on both test/hcg and hcg alone it makes me feel awesome, no mood swings depression or anything of that sort, i take 1 25mlg aromasin a day after or 2d after the shot and have felt awesome, no issues that i know of! Yea my e2 did climb and it help raise ur test as well, from my experience anyways!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

so you aren't doing this long term? lots of bad protocols give short term indications of being a good idea

 

[LW64]

My preference/recommendation has changed since that post.

Better to inject HCG and T on the same day twice a week or every three days.

No labs is asking for trouble.

 

[foreveryoung]

Now you know why I inject low-dose T eod and substitute a low-dose (250 IUs or 500 IUs) HCG shot for T every now and then.

HCG has a half-life of about 36 hours so, AFAIC, it's a bad idea to take it either on the same days you inject T or on days adjacent to your T injection.

I believe what I'm doing is just about the gentlest HCG addition rate that can be done and, even then, I have to ease up by not doing a substitute shot every week. It's more like every 2 or 3 weeks.

is this a recent change in your protocol? I seem to remember you as being an every week hcg user, or maybe it was someone else I'm thinking of. I've experimented a ton with hcg and then kind of went the way you did for awhile too before I realized that dropping hcg completely was the best for me, everyone is different though.

 

[foreveryoung]

...and I wanted hcg to work and be the answer, kind of got in the "placebo" mode where I was trying to deny the bad effects and trying to credit any good effects, but looking back and the way I am now with zero hcg I can see that hcg was overall not a good addition in my protocols for anything, anything I attributed to hcg being helpful I have regained without hcg by keeping a steady testosterone frequent low dose injection protocol and without the problems that hcg causes

no need for it and I think many of the doctors that are jumping on hcg as a solution are doing it to try to be different and seem more cutting edge than the standard testosterone only way of doing things... it would be disappointing for many of these "cutting edge" doctors to actually not have a cutting edge solution to things

 

[Deadballs]

My preference/recommendation has changed since that post.

Better to inject HCG and T on the same day twice a week or every three days.

No labs is asking for trouble.

It's not going to be no labs. It's going to be minimal labs. They're too expensive over here. I'm looking for an overseas lab that'll be cheaper.

Still quite regular and smaller injects seem the way to go for lots of reasons. What's your theory for why to use T and HCG on the same day?

It made a lot of sense to me to cease test injects for a week and use HCG solely on that weak. Are you still doing this or have you stopped?

 

[LW64]

is this a recent change in your protocol? I seem to remember you as being an every week hcg user, or maybe it was someone else I'm thinking of. I've experimented a ton with hcg and then kind of went the way you did for awhile too before I realized that dropping hcg completely was the best for me, everyone is different though.

That's a protocol I used a quite a while back; check the date of the post. It does work but it requires paying close attention all the time to how you feel. Twice a week injections of T + HCG are more like do-it-and-forget-it once you get the dose right. If you want consistently robust, on the high side, androgen levels then HCG is not for you.

Still quite regular and smaller injects seem the way to go for lots of reasons. What's your theory for why to use T and HCG on the same day?

Info posted by Dr. Scally a while back that every 3 or 4 days is about the right spacing for HCG use. That fits in really well with a 2x/week T protocol due to the reduction in e2 response that goes with it. A reduction in e2 response is exactly what you want when you add HCG to T to give you some headroom for the increase that will certainly come from the former. What's left is some trial-and-error to get the dose correct and that means LABS.

It made a lot of sense to me to cease test injects for a week and use HCG solely on that weak. Are you still doing this or have you stopped?

I've been on HCG only for a over a year now. 750 IUs every 3 days; last labs had Total T near 600 with e2 in the high 20s. Works fine.

 

[Deadballs]

OK I'm going to try 30mg sustanon and 250iu HCG every 3 days and see how I feel. Will try and get labs after 2 months and see if I can time them with the day of my shot.

Cheers for the feedback btw. You always give great info.

 

[Deadballs]

It's difficult to get e2 tested as a man in the U.K and impossible to get sensitive e2 tested. Does anyone know if I can send a sample to the states for testing? Will it be too long in transit that way, if it is even possible?