Recovery time no pct?

[Napalmfisr]

I'm considering doing a 20 week cycle, probably at 350mg/week and would like to taper off with no pct, for people who have done this method how long (approximately, I know this is going to differ person to person) until natural test comes back to fairly normal?

 

[Testisthebest15]

I'm considering doing a 20 week cycle, probably at 350mg/week and would like to taper off with no pct, for people who have done this method how long (approximately, I know this is going to differ person to person) until natural test comes back to fairly normal?

What’s the reason behind wanting to do no pct? If you can get nolva, clomid and other ancillary items easily from sources here, why not do it?

 

[Napalmfisr]

What’s the reason behind wanting to do no pct? If you can get nolva, clomid and other ancillary items easily from sources here, why not do it?

I don't like the idea of taking more drugs with more potential for adverse effects.

 

[MadBret]

I've known guys that never did a pct and recovered fine. And I've heard of others who did pct and didn't recover back to where they started. For some, you will be fine after doing a blast and for others, it will be the beginning of lifelong hrt.

I'd recommend getting blood work done before you start and then again, about 3 months after you stopped to see where your levels are at.

Whether you pct or not, you may recover or not. Chances are good that you will recover if you aren't too old and in good health but only time will tell.

Good luck.

 

[Testisthebest15]

I don't like the idea of taking more drugs with more potential for adverse effects.

I would look into an Hcg only pct. In my opinion Hcg is the best way to jump start your testes and fertility. And you don’t get the sides that can come from clomid and nolva.

I’m sure you can recover naturally but it doesn’t mean you will get back to where you were. It will also likely take longer to recover. Also a harsher recovery can also mean losing gains quick.

 

[SenorSuperdrol]

I’d bet 3.50 you lose all your gains doing this.

 

[BouleauBoulot]

Never done PCT and I can quit cold turkey anytime.

 

[Napalmfisr]

I've known guys that never did a pct and recovered fine. And I've heard of others who did pct and didn't recover back to where they started. For some, you will be fine after doing a blast and for others, it will be the beginning of lifelong hrt.

I'd recommend getting blood work done before you start and then again, about 3 months after you stopped to see where your levels are at.

Whether you pct or not, you may recover or not. Chances are good that you will recover if you aren't too old and in good health but only time will tell.

Good luck.

Never done PCT and I can quit cold turkey anytime.

Was this a joke? Like an addict saying they can quit whenever they want? Or you have done it before?

 

[BouleauBoulot]

Was this a joke? Like an addict saying they can quit whenever they want? Or you have done it before?

Yes, I have been on high dose trt for several months.
I stopped suddenly some time ago when I went on vacation and I had absolutely no crash.
I didn't do a blood test but my strength, libido and erections were basically as before trt.
The mood was even better, probably because the return of lh reversed a DHEA/pregnenolone deficiency, I believe.

In theory, if there is not or not too much testicular atrophy, and not too much aromatase activity at the end of treatment/trt, PCT should not be useful.

Testosterone drops to low levels again, the pituitary discharges androgens and especially estrogens and resumes gnRH production as a result, and finally HPTA resumes.
It's only a matter of hours not minutes.

 

[MadBret]

I'll just leave this here.

https://peterbond.org/post/haarlem-study-suggests-post-cycle-therapy-pct-doesnt-work

 

[Napalmfisr]

I'll just leave this here.

https://peterbond.org/post/haarlem-study-suggests-post-cycle-therapy-pct-doesnt-work

Ya I've read this. I think then my question becomes how much does time on effect things? If you are planning on running multiple cycles does it make sense to do like 3 months blast and come off before nuts shrink too much and repeat several times or cruise in between and try coming off only once after a long time shut down?

 

[MadBret]

Ya I've read this. I think then my question becomes how much does time on effect things? If you are planning on running multiple cycles does it make sense to do like 3 months blast and come off before nuts shrink too much and repeat several times or cruise in between and try coming off only once after a long time shut down?

It depends because we don't all respond the same. Some guys can do one cycle and never fully recover. And other guys can cycle multiple times and bounce back just fine. Chances are, you will recover with or without a pct but blast and cruise will have you shut down for longer which makes recovery harder, though not impossible.

 

[embrance]

Done cycles with PCT and without.
PCT is helpful IF everything is fucked up: meaning bloodwork.
For simple stuff like test I would taper to a lower dose and introduce some HCG

 

[Gjl1020]

I understand. I hate serms, myself, and rarely get noticeable atrophy. But when I cycle off, I do get psychological effects, muscle aches, mood swings, and typically lose about 25% of gains pretty quick, so it's not fun without them either.

If it's a test only cycle and you're not going to run any pct, I wouldn't bother tapering the dose. You'll be just as shut down at 100mg as you will at 400. You'll just be adding more weeks to recovery. If it's a long ester, it'll take some clearance time anyway. Try hard to keep your nutrition and training on point post cycle to hang onto your gains. I usually feel back to normal in a couple months,but my baseline total test will still be hovering in the 300s. At 6 monts after, my labs look great again. If it's your first cycle, you'll probably bounce back faster, but who knows. Everyone is different

 

[Henchus maximus98736]

I'm considering doing a 20 week cycle, probably at 350mg/week and would like to taper off with no pct, for people who have done this method how long (approximately, I know this is going to differ person to person) until natural test comes back to fairly normal?

Serms peptides only mask/prolong the inevitable. A consequence of disturbing all that shit god gave ya is some form of CRAP for a while. Usually the time on

 

[Hayes88]

I would be very careful with not following protocol (as in PCT) and just go the hope it works path. Yes, PCT sucks for some, not all, but it´s there for a reason for at least the majority of people.
It´s extremely individual as with the response of gear and what works for who. In other words, non here can answer the how long question. Me for one did not recover and had hell to pay at a younger age, and I am still learning a lot here.

Interestingly enough, seems like all who has said "I didn't do PCT" also never did bloodwork. No disrespect to anyone here since I don´t know anyone personally, but these lazy-ass/ ignorant approaches is why we have so many with issues. It´s similar to "I took tons of gear but don´t grow or keep gains?"... Well, you didn´t follow the protocol (meaning not just drugs, but food, sleep, training, etc etc..)
Yes, I am at fault here as well.

To maximize our ability to keep gains and stay healthy we gotta stay disciplined in all aspects, not just the fun parts.

As mentioned above, tapering won´t do anything for recovery, but I have heard it helps a few with the blow of stopping. There as well, there is a reason why we start PCT after a certain amount of time from last injection.

HCG is also a hot debate that I am not fully keen on, but it´s to my understanding that HCG is suppressive, meaning it would prolong recovery, not help it. So HCG should be used during cycle, not as PCT. I bet @Type-IIx can shed some light here if he has time.

However, I did Dr.Scally program to recover ones which included tons of HCG, so I am confused.

 

[Type-IIx]

I would be very careful with not following protocol (as in PCT) and just go the hope it works path. Yes, PCT sucks for some, not all, but it´s there for a reason for at least the majority of people.
It´s extremely individual as with the response of gear and what works for who. In other words, non here can answer the how long question. Me for one did not recover and had hell to pay at a younger age, and I am still learning a lot here.

Interestingly enough, seems like all who has said "I didn't do PCT" also never did bloodwork. No disrespect to anyone here since I don´t know anyone personally, but these lazy-ass/ ignorant approaches is why we have so many with issues. It´s similar to "I took tons of gear but don´t grow or keep gains?"... Well, you didn´t follow the protocol (meaning not just drugs, but food, sleep, training, etc etc..)
Yes, I am at fault here as well.

To maximize our ability to keep gains and stay healthy we gotta stay disciplined in all aspects, not just the fun parts.

As mentioned above, tapering won´t do anything for recovery, but I have heard it helps a few with the blow of stopping. There as well, there is a reason why we start PCT after a certain amount of time from last injection.

HCG is also a hot debate that I am not fully keen on, but it´s to my understanding that HCG is suppressive, meaning it would prolong recovery, not help it. So HCG should be used during cycle, not as PCT. I bet @Type-IIx can shed some light here if he has time.

However, I did Dr.Scally program to recover ones which included tons of HCG, so I am confused.

HCG is not suppressive per se and should be used on cycle for maintenance of steroidogenesis (hCG, as long-acting LH, stimulates Leydig cell T secretion) & somewhat inconsistently, basal spermatogenesis. Ideally hCG can be used (understanding fully its practical financial expense) in combination with hMG (a combination product of LH & FSH [the latter which stimulates SHBG & Inhibin secretion from the Sertoli cells]) to maintain full HPG axis functioning (steroidogenesis, or T secretion & spermatogenesis, or fertility) and to make transitioning from exogenous AAS to endogenous T secretion painless.

Now, it's true that blasting extremely high dosages of hCG can stimulate supra-physiologic T secretion, which negatively feeds back on its own secretion, thereby exerting a suppressive effect (delaying recovery to a eugonadal state). HCG, too, stimulates aromatase activity (T ⇒ E₂) in Leydig cells, with the resultant pharmacodynamic effect being that Plasma E2 & E2/T ratio peaks on day 1 after hCG administration, whereas plasma T peaks later on day 3.

As you experienced, Dr. Scally's POWER PCT (2.0?) Protocol, plain and simple, helps people. It makes sense for those that require a sometimes frantic solution having not prepared to come off from their cycle beforehand (but may also be used by those not well-versed in, or even skeptical of, maintenance prior to cessation). It, from memory, is a protocol that involves SERMs & hCG administration (perhaps too an AI? I forget, doesn't matter). However, neither SERM (nor AI) use actually solves the problem of restimulating HPG axis (steroidogenesis & spermatogenesis) functioning post-cycle. This is because AAS-induced (acquired) secondary hypogonadism is characterized by low or normal LH and FSH (with normal being inappropriately low in relation to T) and low estrogens.

SERMs might cursorily seem to be perhaps useful in this state since they function as ER antagonists at the hypothalamus/pituitary, increasing LH and T secretion. AIs by blocking aromatase action (T ⇒ E₂), thus reducing the absolute concentration of E₂ (effectively reducing its inhibitory action at the pituitary), thereby increasing LH and T secretion. And yet the steady-state nature of primary or secondary hypogonadism is quite distinct from the transient secondary AAS-induced hypogonadism that occurs post-cycle.

So, AIs and SERMs both act with respect to the HPG axis by reducing the action of estrogens on the hypothalamus & pituitary. While SERMs in particular can be useful for gynecomastia, and likely make you feel better temporarily by increasing LH & T acutely, these drugs just do not actually counteract the suppression by estrogen on T production at the hypothalamus & pituitary because, post cycle, estrogen & T concentrations are very low already.

Thus, it does not follow that blocking the suppressive effect of estrogens at the hypothalamus/pituitary with a SERM or AI would be of benefit, when the stimulus for T production (i.e., low concentrations of estrogens) is already present. Instead, they probably delay somewhat actual recovery when used post-cycle (by increasing T secretion acutely) but serve to reduce the discomfort of low T (symptomology).

Conclusion:
After that tangential rambling (mostly done just to go over the processes in my mind and to make sure that I better understand them each time that I discuss them), the takeaway should be that hCG & ideally also hMG are vital for maintaining full HPG axis functioning (steroidogenesis or T secretion & spermatogenesis or fertility), and the best practice for those that come off from AAS completely is, in my view, to maintain while on cycle with the two, where you should find that you essentially experience no symptoms of low T or infertility after dropping all exogenous hormonal drug preparations in due course. Peter Bond has proposed a protocol for this, here: [source] & I have proposed some practical examples here: [source]

 

[BouleauBoulot]

HCG is not suppressive per se and should be used on cycle for maintenance of steroidogenesis (hCG, as long-acting LH, stimulates Leydig cell T secretion) & somewhat inconsistently, basal spermatogenesis. Ideally hCG can be used (understanding fully its practical financial expense) in combination with hMG (a combination product of LH & FSH [the latter which stimulates SHBG & Inhibin secretion from the Sertoli cells]) to maintain full HPG axis functioning (steroidogenesis, or T secretion & spermatogenesis, or fertility) and to make transitioning from exogenous AAS to endogenous T secretion painless.

Now, it's true that blasting extremely high dosages of hCG can stimulate supra-physiologic T secretion, which negatively feeds back on its own secretion, thereby exerting a suppressive effect (delaying recovery to a eugonadal state). HCG, too, stimulates aromatase activity (T ⇒ E₂) in Leydig cells, with the resultant pharmacodynamic effect being that Plasma E2 & E2/T ratio peaks on day 1 after hCG administration, whereas plasma T peaks later on day 3.

As you experienced, Dr. Scally's POWER PCT (2.0?) Protocol, plain and simple, helps people. It makes sense for those that require a sometimes frantic solution having not prepared to come off from their cycle beforehand (but may also be used by those not well-versed in, or even skeptical of, maintenance prior to cessation). It, from memory, is a protocol that involves SERMs & hCG administration (perhaps too an AI? I forget, doesn't matter). However, neither SERM (nor AI) use actually solves the problem of restimulating HPG axis (steroidogenesis & spermatogenesis) functioning post-cycle. This is because AAS-induced (acquired) secondary hypogonadism is characterized by low or normal LH and FSH (with normal being inappropriately low in relation to T) and low estrogens.

SERMs might cursorily seem to be perhaps useful in this state since they function as ER antagonists at the hypothalamus/pituitary, increasing LH and T secretion. AIs by blocking aromatase action (T ⇒ E₂), thus reducing the absolute concentration of E₂ (effectively reducing its inhibitory action at the pituitary), thereby increasing LH and T secretion. And yet the steady-state nature of primary or secondary hypogonadism is quite distinct from the transient secondary AAS-induced hypogonadism that occurs post-cycle.

So, AIs and SERMs both act with respect to the HPG axis by reducing the action of estrogens on the hypothalamus & pituitary. While SERMs in particular can be useful for gynecomastia, and likely make you feel better temporarily by increasing LH & T acutely, these drugs just do not actually counteract the suppression by estrogen on T production at the hypothalamus & pituitary because, post cycle, estrogen & T concentrations are very low already.

Thus, it does not follow that blocking the suppressive effect of estrogens at the hypothalamus/pituitary with a SERM or AI would be of benefit, when the stimulus for T production (i.e., low concentrations of estrogens) is already present. Instead, they probably delay somewhat actual recovery when used post-cycle (by increasing T secretion acutely) but serve to reduce the discomfort of low T (symptomology).

Conclusion:
After that tangential rambling (mostly done just to go over the processes in my mind and to make sure that I better understand them each time that I discuss them), the takeaway should be that hCG & ideally also hMG are vital for maintaining full HPG axis functioning (steroidogenesis or T secretion & spermatogenesis or fertility), and the best practice for those that come off from AAS completely is, in my view, to maintain while on cycle with the two, where you should find that you essentially experience no symptoms of low T or infertility after dropping all exogenous hormonal drug preparations in due course. Peter Bond has proposed a protocol for this, here: [source] & I have proposed some practical examples here: [source]

So is there any interest in SERMS in post cure/trt if estrogens are already low?
(typically if not combined with HCG)

 

[Type-IIx]

So is there any interest in SERMS in post cure/trt if estrogens are already low?
(typically if not combined with HCG)

It's common practice to use them, purportedly to restimulate hypothalamo-pituitary secretion of LH, but the data from the HAARLEM trial does not bear out PCT as commonly practiced; and the reason for this lack of efficacy is explained in post #17. Peter Bond wrote about this, here: [link]

 

[Chael199]

Just use some Noladex at least. My first cycle was Winstrol at 20mg a week. I was younger then now, but after about 6 weeks my dick stopped working and I had 0, I mean 0 interest in sex and my nuts shrunk. Not knowing what to do I waited and after about 3 months I was able to get hard again. Dont shut yourself down like that. Now Im on TRT because of being stupid. So I never fully recovered. Just think if you shut yourself down with Test ? Just get something ! Dont be stupid