Recovery time no pct?

[BouleauBoulot]

Just use some Noladex at least. My first cycle was Winstrol at 20mg a week. I was younger then now, but after about 6 weeks my dick stopped working and I had 0, I mean 0 interest in sex and my nuts shrunk. Not knowing what to do I waited and after about 3 months I was able to get hard again. Dont shut yourself down like that. Now Im on TRT because of being stupid. So I never fully recovered. Just think if you shut yourself down with Test ? Just get something ! Dont be stupid

6 weeks after stopping winstrol or stopping it?

 

[MadBret]

Just use some Noladex at least. My first cycle was Winstrol at 20mg a week. I was younger then now, but after about 6 weeks my dick stopped working and I had 0, I mean 0 interest in sex and my nuts shrunk. Not knowing what to do I waited and after about 3 months I was able to get hard again. Dont shut yourself down like that. Now Im on TRT because of being stupid. So I never fully recovered. Just think if you shut yourself down with Test ? Just get something ! Dont be stupid

Smarter men have already spoken in this thread. I don't think anyone should be taking advice from the winstrol only cycle guy but I'm known to be an asshole.

If you didn't comprehend what was already stated, taking some nolvadex and or clomid does not speed up recovery, but rather slows it down. It only helps with the bad feeling of having low testosterone while your body starts to recover.

If your body wasn't going to recover without pct drugs, it wasn't going to recover with them either.

 

[Henchus maximus98736]

So is there any interest in SERMS in post cure/trt if estrogens are already low?
(typically if not combined with HCG)

Absolutely.
If you have done a mild cycle, clomid is enough. Mate all my friends have done just that.

 

[Chael199]

6 weeks after stopping winstrol or stopping it?

6 Weeks while still using. Yes I know the lecture on orals. This was over 15 years ago when I did this. I was the puss that was didn't inject and was looking for a easy wat to get some gains.

 

[Chael199]

Smarter men have already spoken in this thread. I don't think anyone should be taking advice from the winstrol only cycle guy but I'm known to be an asshole.

If you didn't comprehend what was already stated, taking some nolvadex and or clomid does not speed up recovery, but rather slows it down. It only helps with the bad feeling of having low testosterone while your body starts to recover.

If your body wasn't going to recover without pct drugs, it wasn't going to recover with them either.

A lot of assholes here. I am one too sometimes. But it was over 15 years ago and just trying to give some decent advice on always atleast try something to not shut yourself down. Wish I would have listened back then.

 

[Henchus maximus98736]

If your body wasn't going to recover without pct drugs, it wasn't going to recover with them either.

This!!!!

Time.

 

[BouleauBoulot]

6 Weeks while still using. Yes I know the lecture on orals. This was over 15 years ago when I did this. I was the puss that was didn't inject and was looking for a easy wat to get some gains.

Okay, don't you think your symptoms were simply due to too low an e2? A priori dht and derivatives can cause this. I also have low libido and low erections (especially girth) if my e2 goes too low, even under test.

Absolutely.
If you have done a mild cycle, clomid is enough. Mate all my friends have done just that.

So don't you think your friends could have gone without clomid?

 

[Henchus maximus98736]

Everybody can go without clomid. But who wants to feel like a little bitch??? Haha nobody.

Clomid has it’s own problems IME far greater side effects on mood than AAS.

 

[LFG2000]

Just use some Noladex at least. My first cycle was Winstrol at 20mg a week.

20mg a week or daily???

 

[Chael199]

20mg a week or daily???

It was daily.

 

[Chael199]

Okay, don't you think your symptoms were simply due to too low an e2? A priori dht and derivatives can cause this. I also have low libido and low erections (especially girth) if my e2 goes too low, even under test.


So don't you think your friends could have gone without clomid?

I can run 400 test for awhile and use Nolva and not get gyno or low E2 that affects me very much. But with no Nolva my E2 gets low and I get gyno at 200 a week. So I just like nolva it works pretty good for me at 20mg EOD.

 

[AlphaEdge]

HCG is not suppressive per se and should be used on cycle for maintenance of steroidogenesis (hCG, as long-acting LH, stimulates Leydig cell T secretion) & somewhat inconsistently, basal spermatogenesis. Ideally hCG can be used (understanding fully its practical financial expense) in combination with hMG (a combination product of LH & FSH [the latter which stimulates SHBG & Inhibin secretion from the Sertoli cells]) to maintain full HPG axis functioning (steroidogenesis, or T secretion & spermatogenesis, or fertility) and to make transitioning from exogenous AAS to endogenous T secretion painless.

Now, it's true that blasting extremely high dosages of hCG can stimulate supra-physiologic T secretion, which negatively feeds back on its own secretion, thereby exerting a suppressive effect (delaying recovery to a eugonadal state). HCG, too, stimulates aromatase activity (T ⇒ E₂) in Leydig cells, with the resultant pharmacodynamic effect being that Plasma E2 & E2/T ratio peaks on day 1 after hCG administration, whereas plasma T peaks later on day 3.

As you experienced, Dr. Scally's POWER PCT (2.0?) Protocol, plain and simple, helps people. It makes sense for those that require a sometimes frantic solution having not prepared to come off from their cycle beforehand (but may also be used by those not well-versed in, or even skeptical of, maintenance prior to cessation). It, from memory, is a protocol that involves SERMs & hCG administration (perhaps too an AI? I forget, doesn't matter). However, neither SERM (nor AI) use actually solves the problem of restimulating HPG axis (steroidogenesis & spermatogenesis) functioning post-cycle. This is because AAS-induced (acquired) secondary hypogonadism is characterized by low or normal LH and FSH (with normal being inappropriately low in relation to T) and low estrogens.

SERMs might cursorily seem to be perhaps useful in this state since they function as ER antagonists at the hypothalamus/pituitary, increasing LH and T secretion. AIs by blocking aromatase action (T ⇒ E₂), thus reducing the absolute concentration of E₂ (effectively reducing its inhibitory action at the pituitary), thereby increasing LH and T secretion. And yet the steady-state nature of primary or secondary hypogonadism is quite distinct from the transient secondary AAS-induced hypogonadism that occurs post-cycle.

So, AIs and SERMs both act with respect to the HPG axis by reducing the action of estrogens on the hypothalamus & pituitary. While SERMs in particular can be useful for gynecomastia, and likely make you feel better temporarily by increasing LH & T acutely, these drugs just do not actually counteract the suppression by estrogen on T production at the hypothalamus & pituitary because, post cycle, estrogen & T concentrations are very low already.

Thus, it does not follow that blocking the suppressive effect of estrogens at the hypothalamus/pituitary with a SERM or AI would be of benefit, when the stimulus for T production (i.e., low concentrations of estrogens) is already present. Instead, they probably delay somewhat actual recovery when used post-cycle (by increasing T secretion acutely) but serve to reduce the discomfort of low T (symptomology).

Conclusion:
After that tangential rambling (mostly done just to go over the processes in my mind and to make sure that I better understand them each time that I discuss them), the takeaway should be that hCG & ideally also hMG are vital for maintaining full HPG axis functioning (steroidogenesis or T secretion & spermatogenesis or fertility), and the best practice for those that come off from AAS completely is, in my view, to maintain while on cycle with the two, where you should find that you essentially experience no symptoms of low T or infertility after dropping all exogenous hormonal drug preparations in due course. Peter Bond has proposed a protocol for this, here: [source] & I have proposed some practical examples here: [source]

Awesome stuff Type-IIx

I read the proposed practical examples but given the half life of both HCG, HMG and AAS, how would you propose to stop the cycle?

Would we stop both HCG and HMG at the same time the serum level of AAS becomes negligible (4 half-lives)?

 

[lars49]

I haven't needed PCT when utilizing scrotal T delivery systems. I'm definitely biased, but I think it's the superior way to use trt. The advantages are 1) you don't have to use as much. There's not a terrible amount of studies on it's use, but the few I've seen suggest as little as 15-25mg can sustain physiological levels (R, R, R). 2) No esterification, so prolonged suppression is not likely, and LH will bounce back quicker. 3) Due to the high 5ar expression in scrotal tissue, T conversion into estrogen will be kept to a minimum. I realize just maintaining physiological levels isn't interesting for some, but remember, these were only 15-25mg dosages. I also think the pre-formulated creams probably won't absorb as well as a DIY base made from raws. I just make a 10% test solution in a 1:1 ration of ethanol and propylene glycol. Add a touch (3-5ml) of tocopherol when done.