Usually he posts in the training section and not very often in the General area.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Religion!
- Thread starter greyowl
- Start date
AnimalMass
New Member
Bob Smith said:
True - I'm into strength and conditioning and no longer use steroids, so I usually just hang in the training forum.
Matt
Hey, by the way, thanks for doing this without attacking me personally. It's nice to be able to discuss this without ego and pride involved. They always mess things up. Understanding another person is hard to do when you think you don't agree with them, and even hard when you find out in the end you definintely don't.
It's worth the effort though.
Okay, onto the weed thing, the illegal issues...
First, is anyone doing roids here not prescribed by a doctor? You are breaking the law. You are sinning. This is according to your own thinking and logic about weed. Roids are illegal unless prescribed. That is a sin.
Anyone doing roids then, must keep their mouths shut on the subject, or they are an utter hypocrite... agreed?
The rest of my answer assumes you are not a hypocrite. If you do illegal roids, to me you are mocking yourself and without character or integrity... IF you also condemn me for having smoked weed. There is no difference. Both are illegal according to your thinking.
Now, for me, the highest law is God. Scripture says so. Since I believe God TOLD me to both do roids, and smoke weed, I had no choice. To disobey would be a sin.
Most people are small minded, no offense, but they can ONLY imagine that isn't real, but my personal excuse to do whatever I want. They can't comprehend or know my heart, but people who do know me, know I was a pharisee of the pharisee's, keeping the law better than anyone else.
In fact that's why I think God did this to me, was to cure me of my legalism, my phariseeism, my lack of love and forgiveness, for those who could not obey as well as I did.
So there is no question that we aught to obey the law of the land, and there is no question that God can supersede that law at any time, and that we must obey him when he speaks. I gave numerous examples of him doing this in scripture, so please read previous posts for them.
The question is then, would God tell me to smoke weed.
In theory, the answer is easy. Obviously yes, since God did MANY strange things in scripture, against the law, etc. He's God.
In truth, the only way to know for sure, is to see the fruit of it. Ye shall know them by their fruit.
Since we are in a forum, I can only give you my testimony. Unfortunately you can't see the difference in me directly.
The fruit is love and joy, and a freedom to know God's heart, not just his rules. Knowing the love, and the reason for the rules, makes me closer to him. Truly understanding and feeling in your heart, that we are free from the law, and are now bound by the higher law of love, has changed everything about me.
I've gone from being a judgmental pharisee (thought i was a nice loving guy, what a lie!), to a soft hearted forgiving, patient fellow.
Hardly perfect, but that was a HUGE leap for me. The difference is astounding. I wish you could know and see it in person.
Anyway, that should clear it all up, but if not, I will go over the verses one by one and explain how this concept applies to them.
God is love, gentlebrothers. He will do whatever it takes, to get us to understand him and know him, for this is our destiny, this is our reason for being alive, to love him and be loved by him.
It's worth the effort though.
Okay, onto the weed thing, the illegal issues...
First, is anyone doing roids here not prescribed by a doctor? You are breaking the law. You are sinning. This is according to your own thinking and logic about weed. Roids are illegal unless prescribed. That is a sin.
Anyone doing roids then, must keep their mouths shut on the subject, or they are an utter hypocrite... agreed?
The rest of my answer assumes you are not a hypocrite. If you do illegal roids, to me you are mocking yourself and without character or integrity... IF you also condemn me for having smoked weed. There is no difference. Both are illegal according to your thinking.
Now, for me, the highest law is God. Scripture says so. Since I believe God TOLD me to both do roids, and smoke weed, I had no choice. To disobey would be a sin.
Most people are small minded, no offense, but they can ONLY imagine that isn't real, but my personal excuse to do whatever I want. They can't comprehend or know my heart, but people who do know me, know I was a pharisee of the pharisee's, keeping the law better than anyone else.
In fact that's why I think God did this to me, was to cure me of my legalism, my phariseeism, my lack of love and forgiveness, for those who could not obey as well as I did.
So there is no question that we aught to obey the law of the land, and there is no question that God can supersede that law at any time, and that we must obey him when he speaks. I gave numerous examples of him doing this in scripture, so please read previous posts for them.
The question is then, would God tell me to smoke weed.
In theory, the answer is easy. Obviously yes, since God did MANY strange things in scripture, against the law, etc. He's God.
In truth, the only way to know for sure, is to see the fruit of it. Ye shall know them by their fruit.
Since we are in a forum, I can only give you my testimony. Unfortunately you can't see the difference in me directly.
The fruit is love and joy, and a freedom to know God's heart, not just his rules. Knowing the love, and the reason for the rules, makes me closer to him. Truly understanding and feeling in your heart, that we are free from the law, and are now bound by the higher law of love, has changed everything about me.
I've gone from being a judgmental pharisee (thought i was a nice loving guy, what a lie!), to a soft hearted forgiving, patient fellow.
Hardly perfect, but that was a HUGE leap for me. The difference is astounding. I wish you could know and see it in person.
Anyway, that should clear it all up, but if not, I will go over the verses one by one and explain how this concept applies to them.
God is love, gentlebrothers. He will do whatever it takes, to get us to understand him and know him, for this is our destiny, this is our reason for being alive, to love him and be loved by him.
AnimalMass said:
garyzilla
New Member
Again, Neodavid you totally disregarded the verses AM presented to you. See you cannot logically believe what you do without throughing the Bible out the window! I am not surprized really, you have been doing it this entire post!
AnimalMass
New Member
Neodavid said:
The problem here Neo, is if God is perfect, he never contradicts himself. I too agree that the highest law is God. And God SAID to obey the authorities in our country. So if he said that, why would he contradict himself and tell YOU not to obey the laws? I don't disagree that speeding is sin, doing steroids is sin, murdering people is sin, shooting abortion doctors is sin, having an affair is sin, and smoking weed in America is a sin.
To think that God would tell you and you alone something that goes against his very word is playing with fire my friend.
Matt
you:
This is getting old. I read your post. You said that speeding is breaking they law right? You said God told you get drunk to free you from fear right? I do not think God would tell you to get drunk. I believe getting drunk is a sin that the Bible clearly teaches, which you do not.
me:
It doesn't, you believe a lie. It says drunkenness is a sin, not getting drunk. I'm sorry, but there really is a huge difference. Can't believe you can't see that, or can't read plain scripture, and I find it puzzling. I thought most of this was about weed. The alcohol thing is a no brainer. The weed one might be tough for some people.
Tell you what though, after seeing how people act drunk compared to on weed, I think the only reason alcohol is legal is because of the money and it's hold on society. Weed is much better.
Weed didn't make my father beat my mother, people on weed get mellow. Some people on alcohol, hurt others very badly.
If there was a vote between the two, I'd vote weed legal and alcohol illegal. We'd all be better off. Cigerettes SHOULD be illegal (grin), just cuase they SMELL so bad and it's like being forced to smell farts in a closed elevator. Smokers are so often so rude...
But at home, I'd be fine with it. I just don't want to smell it.
you:
If I speed then then I am sinning right?
me:
According to you, yes. According to me, it depends. IF God told you to speed to save a life, no.
Therein lies the difference between you and me.
That, and this next part, which is kinda humerous...
you:
I would use the excuse that God told me to speed, which your excuse for getting drunk is that God told you to.
me:
That has nothing to do with this subject. If someone lies, THAT is a sin. They lie if they use God as an excuse.
I don't.
But you however, are dangerously close, if not having already past, the point of being a false accuser. Well, in fact you are, because below you call me a false prophet even.
That's a little extreme, since I'm preaching straight scripture, and believe in Jesus Christ, etc.
Calling someone a false prophet because they believe God told them to have a drink and smoke some weed, is extreme.
You seem to come to this a lot, afraid mostly that people will use God as an excuse...
Well, I have the answer for you, to know the difference!!! Listen carefully friend, the difference is crucial.
If God tells a man to do something, it WILL TURN OUT GOOD.
IF man uses God as an excuse, it will turn out BAD.
One has to have patience, but in the end, all will be taken care of. Everything will be taken into account on the day of judgement anyway, and veangeance belongs to God. That means we get to relax. Nothing will escape God. In the mean time, we are to love and not judge.
By way of example on the turning out good...
My alcohol and weed examples turned out very good in the end. Changed my heart and life. But we need some more to clear up what I mean.
If God tells me to do something, I am completely protected by him. I can come to no harm.
By way of example, the best movie to illustrate what I'm talking about is 'Frailty'. If you haven't seen it, it's very good. Disturbing in how it makes a point, but good.
In the movie, the hero is a character breaking the law in the most extreme way, but constantly protected.
He walks by a security camera, and it goes blank. Nothing on the tape.
That's how it is, that's the difference.
When God tells you something, he backs it up. You will win. There is no chance of failure.
People who would use God as an excuse are as bad as the church people who use God as an excuse to blame, judge, and falsely accuse others.
God is all about love and patience, etc.
David
This is getting old. I read your post. You said that speeding is breaking they law right? You said God told you get drunk to free you from fear right? I do not think God would tell you to get drunk. I believe getting drunk is a sin that the Bible clearly teaches, which you do not.
me:
It doesn't, you believe a lie. It says drunkenness is a sin, not getting drunk. I'm sorry, but there really is a huge difference. Can't believe you can't see that, or can't read plain scripture, and I find it puzzling. I thought most of this was about weed. The alcohol thing is a no brainer. The weed one might be tough for some people.
Tell you what though, after seeing how people act drunk compared to on weed, I think the only reason alcohol is legal is because of the money and it's hold on society. Weed is much better.
Weed didn't make my father beat my mother, people on weed get mellow. Some people on alcohol, hurt others very badly.
If there was a vote between the two, I'd vote weed legal and alcohol illegal. We'd all be better off. Cigerettes SHOULD be illegal (grin), just cuase they SMELL so bad and it's like being forced to smell farts in a closed elevator. Smokers are so often so rude...
But at home, I'd be fine with it. I just don't want to smell it.
you:
If I speed then then I am sinning right?
me:
According to you, yes. According to me, it depends. IF God told you to speed to save a life, no.
Therein lies the difference between you and me.
That, and this next part, which is kinda humerous...
you:
I would use the excuse that God told me to speed, which your excuse for getting drunk is that God told you to.
me:
That has nothing to do with this subject. If someone lies, THAT is a sin. They lie if they use God as an excuse.
I don't.
But you however, are dangerously close, if not having already past, the point of being a false accuser. Well, in fact you are, because below you call me a false prophet even.
That's a little extreme, since I'm preaching straight scripture, and believe in Jesus Christ, etc.
Calling someone a false prophet because they believe God told them to have a drink and smoke some weed, is extreme.
You seem to come to this a lot, afraid mostly that people will use God as an excuse...
Well, I have the answer for you, to know the difference!!! Listen carefully friend, the difference is crucial.
If God tells a man to do something, it WILL TURN OUT GOOD.
IF man uses God as an excuse, it will turn out BAD.
One has to have patience, but in the end, all will be taken care of. Everything will be taken into account on the day of judgement anyway, and veangeance belongs to God. That means we get to relax. Nothing will escape God. In the mean time, we are to love and not judge.
By way of example on the turning out good...
My alcohol and weed examples turned out very good in the end. Changed my heart and life. But we need some more to clear up what I mean.
If God tells me to do something, I am completely protected by him. I can come to no harm.
By way of example, the best movie to illustrate what I'm talking about is 'Frailty'. If you haven't seen it, it's very good. Disturbing in how it makes a point, but good.
In the movie, the hero is a character breaking the law in the most extreme way, but constantly protected.
He walks by a security camera, and it goes blank. Nothing on the tape.
That's how it is, that's the difference.
When God tells you something, he backs it up. You will win. There is no chance of failure.
People who would use God as an excuse are as bad as the church people who use God as an excuse to blame, judge, and falsely accuse others.
God is all about love and patience, etc.
David
Buff Diddy
New Member
This thread is like reading the fricken bible. My attention span ran out after page 2. I just can't hang.
God doesn't contradict himself, you are right.
You haven't demonstrated this is a contradiction.
I quoted scripture to you saying, "We aught to obey God rather than man".
All through the ages, men have died, breaking the law by obeying god.
The most extreme example, is in many places it's against the law to preach the gospel. There are many many examples in scripture of God's men disobeying the law, the king, etc.
The principle is the same, though I understand you will deny it.
The problem is you can't comprehend God doing it. But that isn't the point, is it.
The point is, is it possible? Yes. Am I aware that I am 100% responsible to God for my every thought, heart response, and action? Yes.
In fact, to not do that when God told me to, would have been a sin.
I understand you don't believe God would work that way, but that doesn't matter. Your argument is rendered invalid by the facts, and that's all we can get to here. There is no way for you to be able to judge whether or not it actually happened. There is no way for me to prove it to you.
But what I did, I did sincerely, with a perfect heart towards God, and in faith. It turned out beautifully.
Not much more to say. Your argument doesn't hold water, and scripture proves it wrong. All that's left is you simply not believing me. And that's okay.
You haven't demonstrated this is a contradiction.
I quoted scripture to you saying, "We aught to obey God rather than man".
All through the ages, men have died, breaking the law by obeying god.
The most extreme example, is in many places it's against the law to preach the gospel. There are many many examples in scripture of God's men disobeying the law, the king, etc.
The principle is the same, though I understand you will deny it.
The problem is you can't comprehend God doing it. But that isn't the point, is it.
The point is, is it possible? Yes. Am I aware that I am 100% responsible to God for my every thought, heart response, and action? Yes.
In fact, to not do that when God told me to, would have been a sin.
I understand you don't believe God would work that way, but that doesn't matter. Your argument is rendered invalid by the facts, and that's all we can get to here. There is no way for you to be able to judge whether or not it actually happened. There is no way for me to prove it to you.
But what I did, I did sincerely, with a perfect heart towards God, and in faith. It turned out beautifully.
Not much more to say. Your argument doesn't hold water, and scripture proves it wrong. All that's left is you simply not believing me. And that's okay.
AnimalMass said:
I think the drunk vs drunkenness debate is more semantics than anything else.
I didn't disregard the verses, I showed how they don't apply. We aught to obey God rather than man.
If you like, as I said clearly before, I will go over each and every verse, line by line, if you like.
What part of "We aught to obey God rather than man", doesn't make sense?
You must only then argue, you don't believe God would do such a thing.
THEN, it's up to you to show me a specific scripture that says he would not, or a proof of principle, that he shows he does not do such things.
I've already listed many examples in scripture where he does, and you are ignoring them. You just repeat yourself, plainly telling me you haven't been reading and understanding what I've been saying.
The ball is in your court. Throw something that's substantial at me, after reading and understanding my points this time.
If you like, as I said clearly before, I will go over each and every verse, line by line, if you like.
What part of "We aught to obey God rather than man", doesn't make sense?
You must only then argue, you don't believe God would do such a thing.
THEN, it's up to you to show me a specific scripture that says he would not, or a proof of principle, that he shows he does not do such things.
I've already listed many examples in scripture where he does, and you are ignoring them. You just repeat yourself, plainly telling me you haven't been reading and understanding what I've been saying.
The ball is in your court. Throw something that's substantial at me, after reading and understanding my points this time.
garyzilla said:
Buff Diddy
New Member
C'mon buddy don't you know a fricken strap on chin dildo when you see one. Jeez! Well at least you knew who dave attel was so your off the hook for now. Just start watching his show, Ok. Its only like the funniest one on TV. (accept for crank yankers and mad tv)MANWHORE said:Your using those big words bro,so maybe i like your quote too,i just don't know
And what the hell is your avatar? I can't make out if that's an alien hand around the guys neck
Last edited:
Jesus turned water into wine, so drinking is okay.
Where does 'drunk' begin? It's an honest question.
Drunkenness is easy to tell, a person's life is controlled by it. That's evil.
Being drunk, when your heart is right, can be wonderful.
I didn't take a drink for 40 years. And, I don't like the stuff. So I don't drink it unless God tells me too, same as with everything else in life.
I think most people honestly can't relate to God telling them something. To them, I must be making up excuses. But when god tells you a thing, there is no question it's him. You don't wonder if you were imagining things. You KNOW.
Now day to day life, you do get to practice hearing the whisperings of the spirit. But this was no whisper, it was a shout. My body was tingling from head to toe, and I couldn't move. Love was pouring through me, and God said, "do you want to be free?" I said yes. "Will you do anything?"
Anything you say Lord.
"Get drunk"
Err.... uhh... okay. (I would have argued, but felt like JOB when God rebuked him, and he said, "I repent in dust and ashes") when God shows up, you keep your mouth shut and you listen.
Where does 'drunk' begin? It's an honest question.
Drunkenness is easy to tell, a person's life is controlled by it. That's evil.
Being drunk, when your heart is right, can be wonderful.
I didn't take a drink for 40 years. And, I don't like the stuff. So I don't drink it unless God tells me too, same as with everything else in life.
I think most people honestly can't relate to God telling them something. To them, I must be making up excuses. But when god tells you a thing, there is no question it's him. You don't wonder if you were imagining things. You KNOW.
Now day to day life, you do get to practice hearing the whisperings of the spirit. But this was no whisper, it was a shout. My body was tingling from head to toe, and I couldn't move. Love was pouring through me, and God said, "do you want to be free?" I said yes. "Will you do anything?"
Anything you say Lord.
"Get drunk"
Err.... uhh... okay. (I would have argued, but felt like JOB when God rebuked him, and he said, "I repent in dust and ashes") when God shows up, you keep your mouth shut and you listen.
Bob Smith said:
AnimalMAss said:
For what it's worth, the Jews, if they don't believe in Jesus will go to hell.
me:
A logical question for you... because when most people say things like that, they have no idea what they are talking about. I'm curious in your case.
Jesus was born around 4AD, lived til maybe 37AD, and then died and rose again.
During the next 100 years or so, hardly anyone on the planet, ever heard of him, and it took much longer to get to, say China, etc. The american indians and Aztecs, well, they were sorta screwed over in never hearing the gospel either (for the non-religious, gospel just means 'good news' in koine greek, and some num num decided to call it the gospel rather than translate it to 'good news', cause gospel sounds cooler I guess).
Will those who never heard the gospel, but who lived after the time of Christ, go to hell according to your religion? I say your religion only because I know you will say it's the bible, but want to make sure everyone knows it's your religion, because I can show you clearly from the bible... well, don't want to give that away, need to hear your opinion first.
For what it's worth, the Jews, if they don't believe in Jesus will go to hell.
me:
A logical question for you... because when most people say things like that, they have no idea what they are talking about. I'm curious in your case.
Jesus was born around 4AD, lived til maybe 37AD, and then died and rose again.
During the next 100 years or so, hardly anyone on the planet, ever heard of him, and it took much longer to get to, say China, etc. The american indians and Aztecs, well, they were sorta screwed over in never hearing the gospel either (for the non-religious, gospel just means 'good news' in koine greek, and some num num decided to call it the gospel rather than translate it to 'good news', cause gospel sounds cooler I guess).
Will those who never heard the gospel, but who lived after the time of Christ, go to hell according to your religion? I say your religion only because I know you will say it's the bible, but want to make sure everyone knows it's your religion, because I can show you clearly from the bible... well, don't want to give that away, need to hear your opinion first.
dolfe1
Banned
Wow
For Garyzilla, who wanted me to reply to every verse AnimalMass quoted:
Romans 13:1
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
...God, the supreme Sovereign, has ordained that there should be governeming authorities. Every believer is to be subject to these various authorities, even if these authorities are evil. When Paul wrote this, he was under the control of Nero, who was an evil emporer in Rome, and who persecuted Christians. Even so, Paul exhorted the Roman believers to submit to Nero's authority because it was ordained by God himself.
my reply:
The second part is not a verse, it is a horrible interpretation of scripture. According to THIS idiot, one should not have fought against Hitler, but submitted to his authority, and helped kill millions of people horribly in death camps.
The answer is obvious, as the apostle said, "We ought to obey God rather than man".
One must always follow God and his conscience first, BEFORE man's law. Man's law is often corrupt and against morality.
If Hitler tells you to kill, I say tell him to go take a flying leap.
Regarding the principle and weed, I can only say no one should ever do anything against the law, unless god tells them to, or their conscience won't allow them to. In my case, I had to obey God rather than man. No other choice.
Another verse
Romans 13:2
"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."
...Judgements does not necessarily mean eternal punishment. God may judge people through the human authorities he appoints.
my reply:
Yep, the govt. does not bear the sword in vain, as scripture says. Again, he's cutting and pasting things that are not bible, but interpretations as well.
This falls under the same principle, you must obey God rather than man. If you mess up and just use God as an excuse, the govt. WILL come down on you, because you will no longer be under his protection. Obediance brings protection. If you go against God and use him, you risk not only the govt. judgment, but God's direct judgment as well.
Note, God only does that which corrects. He's not into 'getting back at you for breaking a rule". He's interested in loving you and being loved. Anyone who says anything else, is an idiot (grin).
Another verse:
Romans 13:3-4
"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."
...The sword is an instrument of death. Government has the right, under certain circumstances, to impose capital punishment as well as to wage war. In Paul's day, capital punishment was decapitation with a sword, hence the reference.
my reply:
Yep, couldn't agree more.
And if God has you do something different, he will protect you from the law. That to me is how I know a guy is lying about what God told him to do. If you do right, God's protection will cover you no matter what.
Since most of the religious guys here think I'm nuts anyway, I'll tell you a story about a buddy of mine who got totally messed up the first time God showed up. He was SO blown away, he was driving down the highway (no one else on it thank the Lord) at 140mph in his beamer, foot to the floor, because God was in the car and he felt him so powerfully he could hardly move.
Now this was stupid... (grin)
He said God told him not to turn the wheel right when he started to, and then he lost control and flipped the car 10-15 times. (This was in MI like a month ago, you can look at the papers).
The car was totaled, but Tony got out without a scratch. I mean, no bruises, nothing.
His uncle was a good guy and brought him up to visit us, because we'd had similar extreme experiences, and after a couple of days he was able to settle down and realize God was in his life in a new way, and it wasn't that weird.
In fact, it's normal christianity. Most of the ways people in the church walk, is really a terrible darkness. They have a candle and think they have a torch.
Normal christianity means you literally feel and hear God talk to you.
Abnormal, aborted christianity, means you walk around reading a book and talking about this love affair you are pretending to have. You get bitchy and start blaming, judging, and trying to control others.
Another verse:
Romans 13:5-7
"Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."
..."for conscience sake:" Believers must obey government not only because it is their civic duty but because it is their duty before God.
me:
Yep. I obey all laws, especially the one where God says to obey him rather than men.
another:
1 Peter 2:13-17
"Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men - as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."
...Peter forcefully commands Christians to submit voluntarily to governing authorities. He does not make submission a matter of personal conviction or choice. He decrees that it is an obligation to all Christians "To every ordinance of man," Peters suggests that submission of Christians is not solely related to civil authorities, but all kinds of riles that Christians encounter.
my reply:
I am always amazed at people's interpretations. I think the verse speaks clearly and doesn't need anyone to repeat it 'badly'. They toss in their own attitudes and poison too often. I prefer just to read scripture. Less confusing.
Actually Peter's point is clearly stated in the verse. We are FREE, not UNDER the law, but we should DO man's law, "To put to silence the ignorance of foolish men".
I give you this weed thing as an example. If you are told by God to break the law we are not under, foolish men will speak up.
We are NOT to Lord our liberty over others, which is why I obey all of the law, until God tells me to do something contrary to man's law.
We are only free, by the way, when our hearts are full of love and have no malice or selfish desires controlling us.
another verse:
Matthew 23:27-28
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
me:
Yep, that's what law abiders are like... pharisee's who look great on the outside, keeping all the law, but inside... INSIDE WHERE IT COUNTS, they are lawless and hypocrites.
Take for example men who call men names and judge them, because you threaten them in not believing as they do. This is why I hate religion, it hurts good men and turns them into disfigured beasts who turn and rend one another.
It's the inside that counts... this verse is great to show the very reverse of what Animals point was though. He's showing how outward obediance (the pharisee's were PRO's at it), obeying the law, was CRAP, if your heart, the internal parts were not full of love, but instead, selfishness and 'dead men's bones'.
Another:
James 3:13
"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there."
me:
Well, amen, nothing to add to that, couldn't agree more.
The error lies in Animals belief my conduct was wrong for obeying God.
Funny way to put it, wasn't it... but accurate from my perspective.
Romans 13:1
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
...God, the supreme Sovereign, has ordained that there should be governeming authorities. Every believer is to be subject to these various authorities, even if these authorities are evil. When Paul wrote this, he was under the control of Nero, who was an evil emporer in Rome, and who persecuted Christians. Even so, Paul exhorted the Roman believers to submit to Nero's authority because it was ordained by God himself.
my reply:
The second part is not a verse, it is a horrible interpretation of scripture. According to THIS idiot, one should not have fought against Hitler, but submitted to his authority, and helped kill millions of people horribly in death camps.
The answer is obvious, as the apostle said, "We ought to obey God rather than man".
One must always follow God and his conscience first, BEFORE man's law. Man's law is often corrupt and against morality.
If Hitler tells you to kill, I say tell him to go take a flying leap.
Regarding the principle and weed, I can only say no one should ever do anything against the law, unless god tells them to, or their conscience won't allow them to. In my case, I had to obey God rather than man. No other choice.
Another verse
Romans 13:2
"Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."
...Judgements does not necessarily mean eternal punishment. God may judge people through the human authorities he appoints.
my reply:
Yep, the govt. does not bear the sword in vain, as scripture says. Again, he's cutting and pasting things that are not bible, but interpretations as well.
This falls under the same principle, you must obey God rather than man. If you mess up and just use God as an excuse, the govt. WILL come down on you, because you will no longer be under his protection. Obediance brings protection. If you go against God and use him, you risk not only the govt. judgment, but God's direct judgment as well.
Note, God only does that which corrects. He's not into 'getting back at you for breaking a rule". He's interested in loving you and being loved. Anyone who says anything else, is an idiot (grin).
Another verse:
Romans 13:3-4
"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil."
...The sword is an instrument of death. Government has the right, under certain circumstances, to impose capital punishment as well as to wage war. In Paul's day, capital punishment was decapitation with a sword, hence the reference.
my reply:
Yep, couldn't agree more.
And if God has you do something different, he will protect you from the law. That to me is how I know a guy is lying about what God told him to do. If you do right, God's protection will cover you no matter what.
Since most of the religious guys here think I'm nuts anyway, I'll tell you a story about a buddy of mine who got totally messed up the first time God showed up. He was SO blown away, he was driving down the highway (no one else on it thank the Lord) at 140mph in his beamer, foot to the floor, because God was in the car and he felt him so powerfully he could hardly move.
Now this was stupid... (grin)
He said God told him not to turn the wheel right when he started to, and then he lost control and flipped the car 10-15 times. (This was in MI like a month ago, you can look at the papers).
The car was totaled, but Tony got out without a scratch. I mean, no bruises, nothing.
His uncle was a good guy and brought him up to visit us, because we'd had similar extreme experiences, and after a couple of days he was able to settle down and realize God was in his life in a new way, and it wasn't that weird.
In fact, it's normal christianity. Most of the ways people in the church walk, is really a terrible darkness. They have a candle and think they have a torch.
Normal christianity means you literally feel and hear God talk to you.
Abnormal, aborted christianity, means you walk around reading a book and talking about this love affair you are pretending to have. You get bitchy and start blaming, judging, and trying to control others.
Another verse:
Romans 13:5-7
"Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."
..."for conscience sake:" Believers must obey government not only because it is their civic duty but because it is their duty before God.
me:
Yep. I obey all laws, especially the one where God says to obey him rather than men.
another:
1 Peter 2:13-17
"Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men - as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."
...Peter forcefully commands Christians to submit voluntarily to governing authorities. He does not make submission a matter of personal conviction or choice. He decrees that it is an obligation to all Christians "To every ordinance of man," Peters suggests that submission of Christians is not solely related to civil authorities, but all kinds of riles that Christians encounter.
my reply:
I am always amazed at people's interpretations. I think the verse speaks clearly and doesn't need anyone to repeat it 'badly'. They toss in their own attitudes and poison too often. I prefer just to read scripture. Less confusing.
Actually Peter's point is clearly stated in the verse. We are FREE, not UNDER the law, but we should DO man's law, "To put to silence the ignorance of foolish men".
I give you this weed thing as an example. If you are told by God to break the law we are not under, foolish men will speak up.
We are NOT to Lord our liberty over others, which is why I obey all of the law, until God tells me to do something contrary to man's law.
We are only free, by the way, when our hearts are full of love and have no malice or selfish desires controlling us.
another verse:
Matthew 23:27-28
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."
me:
Yep, that's what law abiders are like... pharisee's who look great on the outside, keeping all the law, but inside... INSIDE WHERE IT COUNTS, they are lawless and hypocrites.
Take for example men who call men names and judge them, because you threaten them in not believing as they do. This is why I hate religion, it hurts good men and turns them into disfigured beasts who turn and rend one another.
It's the inside that counts... this verse is great to show the very reverse of what Animals point was though. He's showing how outward obediance (the pharisee's were PRO's at it), obeying the law, was CRAP, if your heart, the internal parts were not full of love, but instead, selfishness and 'dead men's bones'.
Another:
James 3:13
"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there."
me:
Well, amen, nothing to add to that, couldn't agree more.
The error lies in Animals belief my conduct was wrong for obeying God.
Funny way to put it, wasn't it... but accurate from my perspective.
MANWHORE
Subscriber
Greatest religious movie
History of the world part I
History of the world part I
Come on, I put myself out there, you can answer my question about people who never heard of Christ and whether they will go to hell or not...
I do find this is a problem for Christians in general, they honestly don't think when they read their bibles.
Most of the world, for the first few hundred years, never heard of Jesus. To this day there are millions of people, perhaps billions, who never have.
There is an answer, I'm just curious if you guys who honestly believe you know your bible and christian doctrine, can tell me. No disrespect intended, but if you can't answer this one, you aren't qualified to talk about our other question. At least that's my opinion...
Secondly,
Everyone gets up in arms that I smoked weed, but interestingly NO one, and I mean NO one, complained I take illegal sterioids...
Huh... I wonder why? Would that be, oh, I don't know, what... a little unpopular here? (grin)
Come on guys, someone step up to the plate here. Let's see what ya got for real.
I do find this is a problem for Christians in general, they honestly don't think when they read their bibles.
Most of the world, for the first few hundred years, never heard of Jesus. To this day there are millions of people, perhaps billions, who never have.
There is an answer, I'm just curious if you guys who honestly believe you know your bible and christian doctrine, can tell me. No disrespect intended, but if you can't answer this one, you aren't qualified to talk about our other question. At least that's my opinion...
Secondly,
Everyone gets up in arms that I smoked weed, but interestingly NO one, and I mean NO one, complained I take illegal sterioids...
Huh... I wonder why? Would that be, oh, I don't know, what... a little unpopular here? (grin)
Come on guys, someone step up to the plate here. Let's see what ya got for real.
AnimalMass said:
VDC
New Member
Scripture says that He is the saviour of all men especially them that believe,,,So he is even the saviour of the unbeliever also,,,Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me.",,,The Word of God became flesh and reconciled the world to God,,,Now the word of reconciliation is given unto us,,,Whose sins you forgive, I forgive also,,,Thats power and authority,,,and why do people think that the judgments of God are bad,,,All his ways are judgment,,,When we are judged of him then we receive according to our works,,,Not at some future date(at least not for me)but day by day,,,He scourgeth every son that he receiveth,,,I've known the chastisement of God,,,There is nothing like it,,,Our God is a consuming fire,,,He consumes that which is and is not,,,Only the truth endures unto all generations,,,VDC
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