Risk-reward profile for progesterone/allopregnanolone supplementation

We shall see what happens. I was finding myself literally forgetting words and not being able to remember shit. Felt slow witted. To the point my wife asked wtf was wrong with me. Been noticing it for awhile. I was a straight A student, so I don't have learning issues. I've always avoided Proviron for the most part. Always wonder why anyone needed more DHT while on supra physical levels of test. I understand the reduction in SHBG part, but mine is always low so I'm getting plenty of free T conversion already. My guess is I'd get acne as well. Primobolan alongside my TRT gave me back and shoulder acne whereas test doesn't.

As for the TRT crew who is constantly adjusting things I'm getting pretty close to shooting a cc of test cyp every Thursday and throwing everything else in the trash and moving on with it.
I will just say that I doubt your cognition problems are rooted in endocrinology.
 
I have 3-4 drinks per day. A cocktail and drinks with dinner. I never binge drink. I take krill oil, a multivitamin, 2.5mg of Cialis and 1g of creatine daily.
Brain fog or cognitive issues can be caused by so many things. If you suspect it is drinking related, then I suggest Benfotiamine or even high dose regular Thiamine.

Drop the krill oil. The only oils anyone should eat are coconut oil and extra Virgin olive oil. Butter is good too.

You should get selegiline and take 5mg a couple times a week.

I have more suggestions but you'd have to give more details.
 
Risk-reward profile for progesterone/allopregnanolone supplementation
Author: Type-IIx

It has come to my attention that there is a growing number of bodybuilders and AAS users subscribing to the practice of administering exogenous progesterone or allopregnanolone (or both) as supplemental neurosteroids. I want to put this information out there for them, so that they may balance the tradeoffs of this risky endeavour with appropriate information from different sources.

This article purposely discusses progestins (synthetic) and progesterone receptor agonists, including "bioidentical" progesterone (which is not inherently safe due to its being "bioidentical...") as a singular class of agents that are classic female hormonal agents. A later "article" will be forthcoming that distinguishes between progestins, progesterone, and prolactin (as there is widespread confusion, understandably).

Neurosteroids: steroids that are synthesized in the CNS from cholesterol or sterol precursors [1].

View attachment 158812
Biosynthesis of allopregnanolone [5].

Allopregnanolone

[1]

Allopregnanolone: potent and positive allosteric modulator (PAM) of GABA-A receptors [1], regulates stress, mood, and female sexual behavior [3].

Allopregnanolone exhibits benzodiazepine and antidepressant qualities by modulating GABA-A receptors. Allopregnanolone and progesterone, as steroids, are broad spectrum in their actions, meaning that they affect multiple systems in unpredictable ways.

Progesterone
The "mother molecule"

[4]

Progesterone and its metabolites are neurosteroids that also play an important role in myelination. Consequently, blocking the production of the metabolites of progesterone has been found to have an adverse effect on the myelination process. In rodent and in vitro models, there is evidence of therapeutic benefits for certain types of injury (ischemic stroke, ALS, MS, carpal tunnel syndrome) (22) [6]. Progesterone is upregulated in TBI and stroke patients.
Thus, exogenous progesterone likely has some efficacy in recovery from TBI and stroke, and perhaps for demyelinating disorders. It also has demonstrable efficacy in the treatment of postpartum depression.

Micronized progesterone
Micronised P4 (but not synthetic progestins) and one of its major metabolites, allopregnanolone, have been shown to modulate GABAergic transmission with a similar potency or even greater efficacy, than those of alcohol, benzodiazepines, or barbiturates (4) [6].
P4 is a weak agonist for the GR and AR, has no significant activity via the estrogen receptor (ER), and is a full antagonist for the MR which is beneficial during pregnancy; counteracting possibly excess water retention induced by estrogens (29,30,31) [6].
P4 is slightly anti-androgenic because it also binds to 5-α reductase enzyme and will therefore interact with the conversion of testosterone in dihydrotestosterone, its active metabolite (2) [6]. This is analogous to dutasteride and finasteride.

Safety and Pharmacodynamics in men
There are no established safety profiles for progesterone in men [6]. Safety profiles in women differ depending on when these hormones are used during the menstrual cycle, in early and late pregnancy and in the alleviation of peri- or postmenopausal symptoms [6].

Trying to divine the pharmacodynamics of these exogenous classical female hormones in men should likely focus on the activity on the CNS and on activity in binding the classical nuclear steroid family, chiefly the progesterone receptor (PR), androgen receptor (AR), and mineralocorticoid receptor (MR). Generally, progestagens and (synthetic) progestins agonize the PR, antagonize the AR, agonize the GR, and antagonize the MR.

These classical female hormones regulate the menstrual cycle and pregnancy, and thus certainly have myriad unquantifiable effects in the male organism. Progesterone produced in the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle has several physiological effects regulating menses, and in the pregnant uterus, controlling the development of endometrial receptivity preparing the endometrium for implantation [6].

It is difficult to assess the full spectrum of genomic and nongenomic action of these hormones in men given the paucity of research on these hormones in this population.

Progesterone and its metabolites (allopregnanolone and 4α,5α-tetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone) are potent activators of the PR. Extra-nuclear, non-classical (nongenomic) effects mechanisms include interactions with membrane receptors from the oxytocin (the "bonding" hormone) and GABA-A receptors, and the induction of a direct relaxing effect on uterine contractility by blocking calcium influx [6].

Activation of the PR regulates mammalian female sexual behavior (heat, behavioral estrus), and concurrent treatment with E2 (estradiol) treatment with E2 maximizes the probability that the female will display “lordosis” response, a primary reflexive component of female reproductive behavior, upon mounting by a con-specific male [11].

The extent of activity of progesterone on the CNS is modulated by the route of administration: oral P4 is affected by the presence of bacteria and gut enzymes, the intestinal wall, and liver, wheras intramuscular P4 is not [6].

Micronized progesterone (P4) and allopregnanolone, its chief metabolite, modulate GABAergic transmission with a similar potency or even greater efficacy than alcohol, benzodiazepines, or barbiturates [6]. Thus, similar to mesterolone (Proviron), this hormone is likely to be accompanied by withdrawal symptoms and there is no reason to believe that it is not reinforcing (add
ictive), as a class effect of GABAergic agents.

Oral route
Orally administered P4 undergoes several successive metabolic steps in the gut (5β-reductase), in the intestinal wall (5α-reductase), and the liver (5β-reductase, 3α- & 20α- hydroxylase). The resulting metabolites, 5α-pregnanolone (allopregnanolne; AlloP) and 5β-pregnanolone, bind the GABA-A-R, whilst 5α-pregnanedione & 5β-pregnanedione exert anti-mitotic (suppressing growth) and tocolytic (anti-contraction/relaxation) effects [6]. Oral P4 increases bone formation and is attended by estrogen-related improvements in bone mineral density (BMD), likely via production of new osteoblasts from mesenchymal stem cells and stimulation of osteoblasts to generate bone matrix (8),,[6],,. Oral P4 results in rapid absorption, a maximal plasma concentration within 4 hr with a 8.6% bioavailability versus intramuscular administration, and twice that when administered before food (5) [6].

Intramuscular route
Analogous to the most common (vaginal) route of administration, the intramuscular (IM) route of P4 results in only a small increase in allopregnanolone and no change in 5β-pregnanolone. Thus, men seeking the most relevant function (GABA-A-R modulation) of this hormone would be advised to use via the oral route (and, this is likely to modulate serum levels within the endogenous male range.

Reduced HPG Axis Functioning
"HPTA suppression"
Progesterone and its derivatives dysregulate hypothalamic regulation of T and gonadotropins via KNDy dendron signalling, disrupting GnRH pulsatility, and inhibiting pituitary LH secretion [8] [9]. Synthetic progestins used in male contraception derive efficacy from this feature. Bebb, et al. randomized healthy men to receive either testosterone enanthate (100 mg weekly), or the same dosage of testosterone in combination with the progestin levonorgestrel, the addition of which virtually abolished LH and FSH secretion [10].



Circulating levels in healthy adult men
AlloP serum:
- 0.75 nmol/L
- 0.24 ng/mL
Prog serum:
- 1.9 nmol/L
- 0.60 ng/mL
DHEA serum:
- 16.33 nmol/L
- 4.71 ng/mL [3]

DHEA is primarily an adrenal steroid; AlloP and Prog, as active neurosteroids, are primarily synthesized in the brain.

If one does embark on the use of exogenous neuroactive steroids, it would be prudent to "dial in" bloodwork to healthy endogenous male serum levels.
Whether the adult male's interest in
- allopregnanolone and/or
- exogenous (e.g., micronized) progesterone (P4)
- to treat:
+ anxiety (with drug-like efficacy; on par or greater than benzodiazepines or barbiturates, alcohol)
+ depression (with drug-like efficacy)
+ bones/joints (potential bone formation; augmented BMD)
+ adverse sexual effects of the rare (up to 4% prevalence) post-finasteride syndrome (the efficacy for which these agents have never been rigorously examined scientifically)
- outweighs:
- negative impact on HPG axis functioning (HPTA)
- anti-androgenic action (indeed, progesterone functions analogously to dutasteride/finasteride)
- potential for habituation (addiction) as GABAergic agents
- off-target hormonal effects (particularly egregious with progesterone)
- in consideration of:
+ exogenous T supplanting the role of DHT (but not allopregnanolone, progesterone [whose function in male physiology is markedly limited]) in prostate, scalp, etc.
+ exogenous T potently stimulating osteoblast activity (bone formation; augmented BMD)
+ availability of clinically indicated treatments, including TRT which demonstrably improves its patients' mental health, sexual function, QoL, and bone mineral density, administered by medical professionals, and
- the absence of any demonstrable clinical relevance of supplemental neurosteroids for healthy men
_______________________________
References:
[1] Zorumski, C. F., Paul, S. M., Covey, D. F., & Mennerick, S. (2019). Neurosteroids as novel antidepressants and anxiolytics: GABA-A receptors and beyond. Neurobiology of Stress, 11, 100196. doi:10.1016/j.ynstr.2019.100196
[2] Irwig, M. S. (2014). Persistent Sexual and Nonsexual Adverse Effects of Finasteride in Younger Men. Sexual Medicine Reviews, 2(1), 24–35. doi:10.1002/smrj.19
[3] Genazzani, A. R., Petraglia, F., Bernardi, F., Casarosa, E., Salvestroni, C., Tonetti, A., … Luisi, M. (1998). Circulating Levels of Allopregnanolone in Humans: Gender, Age, and Endocrine Influences. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 83(6), 2099–2103. doi:10.1210/jcem.83.6.4905
[4] Bond, P. (2020). On Steroids.
[5] Schumacher, M., Mattern, C., Ghoumari, A., Oudinet, J. P., Liere, P., Labombarda, F., … Guennoun, R. (2014). Revisiting the roles of progesterone and allopregnanolone in the nervous system: Resurgence of the progesterone receptors. Progress in Neurobiology, 113, 6–39. doi:10.1016/j.pneurobio.2013.09.004
[6] Piette, P. C. (2020). The Pharmacodynamics and Safety of Progesterone. Best Practice & Research Clinical Obstetrics & Gynaecology. doi:10.1016/j.bpobgyn.2020.06.002
[7] Sitruk-Ware, R. (2004). Pharmacological profile of progestins. Maturitas, 47(4), 277–283. doi:10.1016/j.maturitas.2004.01.001
[8] Navarro, V. M., Gottsch, M. L., Chavkin, C., Okamura, H., Clifton, D. K., & Steiner, R. A. (2009). Regulation of Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone Secretion by Kisspeptin/Dynorphin/Neurokinin B Neurons in the Arcuate Nucleus of the Mouse. Journal of Neuroscience, 29(38), 11859–11866. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.1569-09.2009
[9] Girmus, R. L., & Wise, M. E. (1992). Progesterone Directly Inhibits Pituitary Luteinizing Hormone Secretion in an Estradiol-dependent Manner1. Biology of Reproduction, 46(4), 710–714. doi:10.1095/biolreprod46.4.710
[10] Bebb, R. A., Anawalt, B. D., Christensen, R. B., Paulsen, C. A., Bremner, W. J., & Matsumoto, A. M. (1996). Combined administration of levonorgestrel and testosterone induces more rapid and effective suppression of spermatogenesis than testosterone alone: a promising male contraceptive approach. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 81(2), 757–762. doi:10.1210/jcem.81.2.8636300
[11] Mani S, Portillo W. Activation of progestin receptors in female reproductive behavior: Interactions with neurotransmitters. Front Neuroendocrinol. 2010;31(2):157-171. doi:10.1016/j.yfrne.2010.01.002
I'm glad I noticed this thread. I've been supplementing DHEA 50mg and Pregnanolone 30mg ED the past month because I heard it was necessary...yeah I'm retarded, I know. I noticed I started breaking out with acne on my chest/shoulder/upper back and stopped taking it about 3 days ago. Pretty sure it's already starting to clear up too. I'm assuming this was due to aromatization or? Again, I am clinically retarded, but the whole reason I started was because the last two bloodworks I've got done my Estrogen was ranging between 10-20, which correct me if I'm wrong, is pretty low.
 
We shall see what happens. I was finding myself literally forgetting words and not being able to remember shit. Felt slow witted. To the point my wife asked wtf was wrong with me. Been noticing it for awhile. I was a straight A student, so I don't have learning issues. I've always avoided Proviron for the most part. Always wonder why anyone needed more DHT while on supra physical levels of test. I understand the reduction in SHBG part, but mine is always low so I'm getting plenty of free T conversion already. My guess is I'd get acne as well. Primobolan alongside my TRT gave me back and shoulder acne whereas test doesn't.

As for the TRT crew who is constantly adjusting things I'm getting pretty close to shooting a cc of test cyp every Thursday and throwing everything else in the trash and moving on with it.
I've seen in myself pregnenolone help with cognition. I take 10mg before bed, and a few times I've tried going without to see if I really need it. I don't feel literally retarded, but my linguistics suffers. Like I'm trying to think of a word, and just can't latch on to it whereas normally it would be no problem.
 
I'm glad I noticed this thread. I've been supplementing DHEA 50mg and Pregnanolone 30mg ED the past month because I heard it was necessary...yeah I'm retarded, I know. I noticed I started breaking out with acne on my chest/shoulder/upper back and stopped taking it about 3 days ago. Pretty sure it's already starting to clear up too. I'm assuming this was due to aromatization or? Again, I am clinically retarded, but the whole reason I started was because the last two bloodworks I've got done my Estrogen was ranging between 10-20, which correct me if I'm wrong, is pretty low.
Likely due to aromatization, yes. Determining cause/effect for acnea, that is subject to so many factors, is difficult. But if cessation from the DHEA & Preg led to immediate clearing up, it's very likely that it was due to aromatization (or progestagenic activity). It could be E1 rather than E2 that is an issue for you, usually not measured by blood assays (again, bloodwork gives this illusory sense of control, and leads to playing whack-a-mole with arbitrary reference values).

Hormones are, by definition, broad spectrum - they affect so many damn systems and functions. The last thing guys need here are more hormones, female hormones even, to "balance their Chi."
 
I'd like to add my anecdotal experience to this thread:

I use 25 mg DHEA ed and yesterday decided to up the dose to 50 mg, my body temp spiked, erections popped up like crazy but I felt a little too "amped" to be mentally productive with studying. I could another 25 mg dose being used as a pre-workout or used before sex, anyone do this?

My experience with pregnenolone is much different. I was told to only use this at night. When I did use it was 10 mg, and I felt really relaxed this first couple of days but after that, I started not feeling relaxed, got gyno like symptoms and just felt off. For me, this compound may need to be ran only once or twice a week.

But I do remember a cognition boost from this supplement or in combo with DHEA.
 
I am wondering about experiences like that. I share same positive feelings but I start looking like crap short after I take it.
Watery as fuck so I stopped taking it
 
I'd like to add my anecdotal experience to this thread:

I use 25 mg DHEA ed and yesterday decided to up the dose to 50 mg, my body temp spiked, erections popped up like crazy but I felt a little too "amped" to be mentally productive with studying. I could another 25 mg dose being used as a pre-workout or used before sex, anyone do this?

My experience with pregnenolone is much different. I was told to only use this at night. When I did use it was 10 mg, and I felt really relaxed this first couple of days but after that, I started not feeling relaxed, got gyno like symptoms and just felt off. For me, this compound may need to be ran only once or twice a week.

But I do remember a cognition boost from this supplement or in combo with DHEA.

This sounds similar to my experience with hcg. Better cognition, more anxiety, and estrogenic sides, if not taken care off. I don't remember what the general consensus was in this thread, in regards to; if serum neurosteroids don't elevate brain levels of them, but, it's really obvious they do have an effect on brain function, beyond just what elevated estrogen's or androgens would do. Libido is definitely also a huge factor. I don't think it makes much sense in spending energy in arguing in the opposite direction ...
 
I'd like to add my anecdotal experience to this thread:

I use 25 mg DHEA ed and yesterday decided to up the dose to 50 mg, my body temp spiked, erections popped up like crazy but I felt a little too "amped" to be mentally productive with studying. I could another 25 mg dose being used as a pre-workout or used before sex, anyone do this?

My experience with pregnenolone is much different. I was told to only use this at night. When I did use it was 10 mg, and I felt really relaxed this first couple of days but after that, I started not feeling relaxed, got gyno like symptoms and just felt off. For me, this compound may need to be ran only once or twice a week.

But I do remember a cognition boost from this supplement or in combo with DHEA.

DHEA behaves every differently according to dosing. It will increase cancer risk at 25mg, but at 5mg-15mg it can be a fountain of youth for some.

I would not take 25mg a day of DHEA. I don't know why they make such large doses. 5mg a day is best. If you are older......maybe 60 years old, it may be helpful to take more, maybe 10-15mg per day.

Are you sure pregnenolone is the cause of the gyno feelings? It's probably something else.

I think it's better to take pregnenolone in larger doses. It behaves differently that way. It's paradoxical, but it can be more tolerable in larger doses than in tiny doses.
 

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