Simplicity, consistency, accountability

[Jin23]

I just find it fascinating that the body reacts the same way to changes in both directions. While on the way up it seemed to take approximately 1 week to normalize (rhr, hrv) at each new dose. So I'm hopeful this will be the same.

As far as dosage... we'll see I'm sure you're right and me self managing is in fact a bad idea but now that I'm getting vials of cypionate for $30 there is literally no way I'm ever paying $250 for the identical product from a compounding pharmacy. Not that the MD was any good and immediately put me on 200mg + arimidex right out of the gate

Training wise, don't think deload is necessary , just had a deload like a week ago. Possible volume is just set too high but it really shouldn't be. I think I've done maybe 50 sets in the last week, tops. And only cardio is walking.

Anyway I do appreciate your input, always, even if I don't always agree on all of it. And even if I suspect that I understand probably a lot more than you give me credit for. Knowledge isn't usually my shortcoming, wisdom is.

I'm just happy I'm talking to sensible adults. I think you have a chance of making things work for you in life in a general sense. You'll see if all of this is a good idea or not and I think you'll make some right decisions.

I do not think think you're totally undereducated, I do think however you are undereducated on the neurobiology side of things. And the only reason why I'm pronouncing this side of discourse is because I think you fall in to at risk group for the negative side of aas neuromodulation effects. And the issue is that these effects take time, they are gradual and so you don't notice them untill it's too late.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

It's weird I've just taken several rest days in a row and yet all my metrics are still in the toilet: sleep scores and HRV for example. Maybe I shouldn't put too much stock in what my watch tells me but actually my body tells me that it's right.

It does make sense i suppose, my body is adapting to a changing hormonal environment. That and I cut my suboxone dose by 25% last week. So it's got to adjust to that as well.

Not to be a simpleton, but I have to imagine that your suboxone dose decrease is almost certainly impacting your sleep. Throw in hormonal flux of any type, as Jin had mentioned (up or down, androgens or estrogen, etc), and you've got a good answer for less quality sleep.

You may have covered this, but when do you take your GH? If it's a nighttime bolus, there are many people who suffer from sleep disturbances from GH, not higher quality sleep. Even if it's not a night time bolus, can still have negative impact.

All of this is to say that you have quite a bit of "change" occurring right now. Think you've got the right idea removing certain variables, holding others steady, and methodically troubleshooting from there.

 

[readalot]

And the issue is that these effects take time, they are gradual and so you don't notice them untill it's too late.

Real talk by Jin23. Where's your weekly MESO show? How much? Good stuff Brother.

 

[readalot]

Started TRT in September and straight away jumped on HGH as well.

Currently cruising on:

Test C 210/wk
HGH 3 iu/d
Retatrutide 4.2 mg/wk

I was up to 210 test plus 105 primo, switched it up to 280 test 70 primo because my e2 was low, then backed off to 210 test only because, honestly, I just didn't feel that great

but the TRT as initially prescribed was 100 twice a week and instead I did 30/day and called it close enough

In regards to dosing, TRT is 500 - 700 ng/dl range yes, same as you were before going on cycle. And yes, adjusting first to testosterone only and only then adding GH would be something I'd do myself. 3 IU's is also not an HRT dose for GH, which would fall somewhere around 1.5 iu's, respectively.

I never meant to misrepresent what I've done over the past few months as TRT, as other than the first month or so that was not what it was.

If you read carefully, I said I started on TRT and then dabbled with primo and anavar. Clearly primo and anavar are not trt. So yes, blasting and cruising, which in hindsight I now realize was a poor decision. Initially, however, it was actually TRT: the doc prescribed 200 mg/wk which I actually didn't do at first, I actually started at 100 mg/wk for the first month, because that seemed like a more logical starting dose from all the research i had done. And, actually, that was the place at which I felt the best. I felt better than I had in years.

And that brings us to today and after carefully considering I have decided to titrate down further and at least attempt to find the top of the reference range rather than beyond. So further reducing test cyp down, to 21 mg/day, 147/week. Not sure how valid the labs will be on 12/11 as that's only two weeks out and perhaps I should make a new appointment because I doubt that the change from this titration will have time to fully manifest by then.

The doc's 200 mg's TRT wasn't TRT and your decision to stay at 100 was definitely the right call.

I did feel great on 100. Seriously, I felt amazing. Shouldn't have fucked with it, I've been chasing my tail ever since.

I'm hoping that my reduction to 150mg test/wk and 2 iu hgh 5d/wk will help smooth things out. That's basically 1/2 the weekly dose compared to two weeks ago.

Yeah I maxed out at 280/wk and 3 iu/day so I've more or less cut that in half, and dropped primo. Too high too quickly, though the primo masked some of the side effects of the test I think.

Ok that definitely puts my recklessness in perspective. Thanks for that, I feel like an asshole now that I look back, like duh what did i expect to happen? Well live and learn.

So I'm left feeling tempted to reduce even further. To 120 or even 100 per week test, and possibly even drop the gh temporarily

But there is no doubt I'm holding extra fluid, and as the primo gets further and further in the past I do think the fluid retention is getting worse despite already having reduced test and gh.

So I'm left feeling tempted to reduce even further. To 120 or even 100 per week test, and possibly even drop the gh temporarily.

I cannot deny that I felt the best on 100 test and nothing else.

So perhaps the answer is to go back to what was working, before i started tinkering and fucked everything up.

you are still on a light cycle and trt is most probably going to be around 75 - 100 mg's for you (if you were around 2000 ngdl at 200 mg's).

So this log is what makes forums worth it for me. I want to thank you for that. You were given a shit protocol from the gate and from your own research had a good plan through the first month.

Thank you for taking the time to do this log and those that have contributed their time.

Have you read this article? I'm sure you have. Puts TRT and sticking with consistent dose for months in perspective before adding anything.

Get that 3 to 6 month baseline at the least.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved - PMC

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[twreck555]

I'm just happy I'm talking to sensible adults. I think you have a chance of making things work for you in life in a general sense. You'll see if all of this is a good idea or not and I think you'll make some right decisions.

I do not think think you're totally undereducated, I do think however you are undereducated on the neurobiology side of things. And the only reason why I'm pronouncing this side of discourse is because I think you fall in to at risk group for the negative side of aas neuromodulation effects. And the issue is that these effects take time, they are gradual and so you don't notice them untill it's too late.

On AAS yes this is true, which is odd considering I have a bachelor's degree in neurobiology. That particular area of neurobiology isn't something i remember focusing on, I was much more interested at the time in psychedelics and trying in vain to understand cognition and consciousness, so I'll have to go back and read up. I absolutely have the conceptual framework to allow a deep understanding, both on a neurological as well as endocrine standpoint, but obviously there are some holes which need to be filled in.

A bigger issue, which you have already alluded to, is my tendency to overlook my better judgement and come up with flimsy excuses to justify poor choices. I 100% agree with you there, that is an issue of which I must stay ever vigilant.

 

[twreck555]

Not to be a simpleton, but I have to imagine that your suboxone dose decrease is almost certainly impacting your sleep. Throw in hormonal flux of any type, as Jin had mentioned (up or down, androgens or estrogen, etc), and you've got a good answer for less quality sleep.

You may have covered this, but when do you take your GH? If it's a nighttime bolus, there are many people who suffer from sleep disturbances from GH, not higher quality sleep. Even if it's not a night time bolus, can still have negative impact.

All of this is to say that you have quite a bit of "change" occurring right now. Think you've got the right idea removing certain variables, holding others steady, and methodically troubleshooting from there.

Yup night time GH dose. For a little while there I felt like I was sleeping well, even though my biometrics never quite equally what I had as a "natural". Thanks for your feedback bro, I always value your point of view, even if I don't think I can ever emulate your practical approach

 

[twreck555]

So this log is what makes forums worth it for me. I want to thank you for that. You were given a shit protocol from the gate and from your own research had a good plan through the first month.

Thank you for taking the time to do this log and those that have contributed their time.

Have you read this article? I'm sure you have. Puts TRT and sticking with consistent dose for months in perspective before adding anything.

Get that 3 to 6 month baseline at the least.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved - PMC

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yeah I've tinkered and tinkered and tinkered haven't I. And here I am wanting to change more shit lol before the effects of the last change are even yet manifest. I actually don't think I read that but I will, 100%. Thank you as always

 

[twreck555]

Man these fluid shifts are wild, ate off plan yesterday and overshot on carbs bu probably 250g or so, up 7.5 lbs today! Don't look much different. Makes me wonder if tweaking my macros towards lower carb during my fat loss phase might have the added benefit of reducing some of the fluid retention. Still pondering dosage targets.

 

[Jin23]

I have a bachelor's degree in neurobiology.

Well then ... you should know that hpa axis deterioration is involved, in one way or another, in most of psychological pathologies. And messing with your brain reward system, potentially deteriorating it further, especially if you already have something going on there, could be an issue. Seeing how neurobiology was your bachelors, I'd be interested in your rationale in regards to all that we were talking about here; nothing specific, just a general sense.

From my own experience, having a light case of bpd, gad and something akin to adhd-pi, I can without a shadow of a doubt say that aas were the worst thing I ever did to myself, and is one of the only things I'd go back in time and slap the idea of using it from my head. From severely increased sensitivity to androgens (even small doses or naturally high androgens cause unrelenting excitatory neurotransmission, agitation, headaches ...) to permanently changed aggression, permanently fragmented sleep (GH actually did this) ... My brain is also much more lazy after using aas, it's much harder to do anything while being off of them. Anyway, QL went on a deep plunge for me after PED's and it's one of the reasons I try and warn people when I see they have some sort of psychological issues.

And all in all, ped's are so externalizing, ie. they put goals outside oneself, ego inflating, IQ reducing (especially cognitive flexibility), ... that I just don't see any sense in using them ever again. I was also big on meditation and psych's and was a much better person when I was focusing on "mental gains" then when on putting more meat on my bones. Surprising heh

Yeah I've tinkered and tinkered and tinkered haven't I. And here I am wanting to change more shit lol before the effects of the last change are even yet manifest. I actually don't think I read that but I will, 100%. Thank you as always

GH increases sleep fragmentation, REM density and duration, and promotes NREM2. It does not enhance SWS. However, at treatment initiation GH is particularly sedative, probably mostly due to it's gabergic effects, but when that tapers off, you start experiencing the "true" nature of it's effects on sleep.

I'd say if there is one rule to this transhumanism/physique enhancement endeavor is don't compromise on sleep and anxiety, the later is imo also a good heuristic measure for "CNS stress" and when you should stop and re-evaluate what you're doing ...

 

[readalot]

Well then ... you should know that hpa axis deterioration is involved, in one way or another, in most of psychological pathologies. And messing with your brain reward system, potentially deteriorating it further, especially if you already have something going on there, could be an issue. Seeing how neurobiology was your bachelors, I'd be interested in your rationale in regards to all that we were talking about here; nothing specific, just a general sense.

From my own experience, having a light case of bpd, gad and something akin to adhd-pi, I can without a shadow of a doubt say that aas were the worst thing I ever did to myself, and is one of the only things I'd go back in time and slap the idea of using it from my head. From severely increased sensitivity to androgens (even small doses or naturally high androgens cause unrelenting excitatory neurotransmission, agitation, headaches ...) to permanently changed aggression, permanently fragmented sleep (GH actually did this) ... My brain is also much more lazy after using aas, it's much harder to do anything while being off of them. Anyway, QL went on a deep plunge for me after PED's and it's one of the reasons I try and warn people when I see they have some sort of psychological issues.

And all in all, ped's are so externalizing, ie. they put goals outside oneself, ego inflating, IQ reducing (especially cognitive flexibility), ... that I just don't see any sense in using them ever again. I was also big on meditation and psych's and was a much better person when I was focusing on "mental gains" then when on putting more meat on my bones. Surprising heh



GH increases sleep fragmentation, REM density and duration, and promotes NREM2. It does not enhance SWS. However, at treatment initiation GH is particularly sedative, probably mostly due to it's gabergic effects, but when that tapers off, you start experiencing the "true" nature of it's effects on sleep.

I'd say if there is one rule to this transhumanism/physique enhancement endeavor is don't compromise on sleep and anxiety, the later is imo also a good heuristic measure for "CNS stress" and when you should stop and re-evaluate what you're doing ...

I steered far away from AAS during all the years of school and for more after that. And I am grateful I did. You bring up some real pearls here. Grateful for you.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Man these fluid shifts are wild, ate off plan yesterday and overshot on carbs bu probably 250g or so, up 7.5 lbs today! Don't look much different. Makes me wonder if tweaking my macros towards lower carb during my fat loss phase might have the added benefit of reducing some of the fluid retention. Still pondering dosage targets. View attachment 305614

I can say with a high degree of certainty that the lower carb you go, the less water you will retain, especially on GH. Obviously there are other factors at play, but the answer to this question is still: yes.

 

[readalot]

I can say with a high degree of certainty that the lower carb you go, the less water you will retain, especially on GH. Obviously there are other factors at play, but the answer to this question is still: yes.

This seems the way to go for old heads looking to try GH. Taking notes.

 

[twreck555]

I can say with a high degree of certainty that the lower carb you go, the less water you will retain, especially on GH. Obviously there are other factors at play, but the answer to this question is still: yes.

Copy that. Thanks for this. Luckily I'm pretty well versed in both low fat and low carb meal prep. I'll have a look at my plan and likely pull carbs down a bit and add in some fats instead

 

[twreck555]

Well then ... you should know that hpa axis deterioration is involved, in one way or another, in most of psychological pathologies. And messing with your brain reward system, potentially deteriorating it further, especially if you already have something going on there, could be an issue. Seeing how neurobiology was your bachelors, I'd be interested in your rationale in regards to all that we were talking about here; nothing specific, just a general sense.

From my own experience, having a light case of bpd, gad and something akin to adhd-pi, I can without a shadow of a doubt say that aas were the worst thing I ever did to myself, and is one of the only things I'd go back in time and slap the idea of using it from my head. From severely increased sensitivity to androgens (even small doses or naturally high androgens cause unrelenting excitatory neurotransmission, agitation, headaches ...) to permanently changed aggression, permanently fragmented sleep (GH actually did this) ... My brain is also much more lazy after using aas, it's much harder to do anything while being off of them. Anyway, QL went on a deep plunge for me after PED's and it's one of the reasons I try and warn people when I see they have some sort of psychological issues.

And all in all, ped's are so externalizing, ie. they put goals outside oneself, ego inflating, IQ reducing (especially cognitive flexibility), ... that I just don't see any sense in using them ever again. I was also big on meditation and psych's and was a much better person when I was focusing on "mental gains" then when on putting more meat on my bones. Surprising heh



GH increases sleep fragmentation, REM density and duration, and promotes NREM2. It does not enhance SWS. However, at treatment initiation GH is particularly sedative, probably mostly due to it's gabergic effects, but when that tapers off, you start experiencing the "true" nature of it's effects on sleep.

I'd say if there is one rule to this transhumanism/physique enhancement endeavor is don't compromise on sleep and anxiety, the later is imo also a good heuristic measure for "CNS stress" and when you should stop and re-evaluate what you're doing ...

I did not realize that GH could have a detrimental effect on sleep. I'll consider this in my decision re: dosage. The whole reason I introduced it was to enhance recovery and increase athletic longevity so to speak, but if it has a deleterious effect on sleep then it might not be of much use to enhancing recovery.

As for my overall rationale, in general, that is too long of an explanation for right this moment but I will try to write that down later as it is relevant, even fundamental, to all of these more specific questions.

I appreciate you sharing the details of your personal experience, it definitely provides perspective, again I'll respond in more detail later. For now I actually feel pretty good but I'm on call for work so I better train while I can.

 

[twreck555]

Ended up getting called in halfway through the best training session in weeks.

First, light cardio with doggo, 2 miles flat no weight 30 minutes

Physio Mobility routine 2 rounds

Target 3 RIR

Bench 205x7, 185x10, tbh probably more like 1-0 RIR
Pullup +15x5, +0x6 damn hard
75 degree incline db press 35x12, 30x16
Cable row 125x12, 110x16
Dip +45 x11, +20x14
Kneeling one arm lat pull 50x20/20, 50x20/20 first time trying these, can really feel the lat activating
One Arm db lateral raise 6x16/16

...and got called into work, didn't quite get to finish

Still, really good session. Feeling strong. Pretty sure top set on Bench was a lifetime PR. Never have pressed two plates, we're getting close though. Slow and steady.

Macros p224 f29 c254 kcal 2147

Steps 7870

Good day. Just need to get in the gym earlier when on call. And do more steps. Lots more

 

[Trenbolonetax]

This seems the way to go for old heads looking to try GH. Taking notes.

I can run as much GH as I want on zero carb and get pretty much zero additional fluid retention. It's wild. But also makes sense based on the factors at play.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

I did not realize that GH could have a detrimental effect on sleep. I'll consider this in my decision re: dosage. The whole reason I introduced it was to enhance recovery and increase athletic longevity so to speak, but if it has a deleterious effect on sleep then it might not be of much use to enhancing recovery.

You might find a goldilocks dosage. Or you may not. I think I have just gotten accustomed / accepted the sleep issues. I used to wake up more frequently than I do now, however, now it feels like my sleep is just cut short. I get about a 5hr chunk with ease, and then have to force myself to get additional hours.

I'm not suggesting you throw this variable into the equation now, however, I've had some success using a GHRH + Epitalon pre bed while keeping GH administration as far away as possible from bedtime (e.g., directly upon waking).

That being said, I don't advocate for more substances to smooth over sides of other substances.

The best sleep I've had in recent memory is being off of all AAS + growth. I think that is what people call "mere mortal." I would routinely sleep 8hrs with ease. My snoring also completely disappeared despite bodyweight in the 260s. My snoring immediately came back even on 20mg test prop daily.

Having said all this, I'm actually looking forward to bumping back down to TRT+ with a reasonable GH dose to see how my sleep + QOL is compared to now.

I am ironically posting on a steroid forum about shitty sleep while it is 3am where I live, lol. Went to bed at 730pm and woke up around 2am. Not terrible, not great.

 

[twreck555]

You might find a goldilocks dosage. Or you may not. I think I have just gotten accustomed / accepted the sleep issues. I used to wake up more frequently than I do now, however, now it feels like my sleep is just cut short. I get about a 5hr chunk with ease, and then have to force myself to get additional hours.

I'm not suggesting you throw this variable into the equation now, however, I've had some success using a GHRH + Epitalon pre bed while keeping GH administration as far away as possible from bedtime (e.g., directly upon waking).

That being said, I don't advocate for more substances to smooth over sides of other substances.

The best sleep I've had in recent memory is being off of all AAS + growth. I think that is what people call "mere mortal." I would routinely sleep 8hrs with ease. My snoring also completely disappeared despite bodyweight in the 260s. My snoring immediately came back even on 20mg test prop daily.

Having said all this, I'm actually looking forward to bumping back down to TRT+ with a reasonable GH dose to see how my sleep + QOL is compared to now.

I am ironically posting on a steroid forum about shitty sleep while it is 3am where I live, lol. Went to bed at 730pm and woke up around 2am. Not terrible, not great.

Yeah dude, definitely have had a few nights like that recently.

I absolutely agree with you that the suboxone is playing a big role but I cannot deny that my sleep in general is worse than prior to starting testosterone. No doubt at all.

Haven't looked into epitalon but I'll read up. I am curious about the secretagogues because they do seem like they add a layer of safety, being that you can't wind up with more GH than you can secrete.

Hey question for you: does the telmisartan make much difference as far as fluid? I know it's not a diuretic per se but it seems like it should have a mild effect on fluid balance

Thanks as always for the good information

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Yeah dude, definitely have had a few nights like that recently.

I absolutely agree with you that the suboxone is playing a big role but I cannot deny that my sleep in general is worse than prior to starting testosterone. No doubt at all.

It's unfortunate because I really love testosterone lol. Hate to have to make a trade off between the two.

Haven't looked into epitalon but I'll read up. I am curious about the secretagogues because they do seem like they add a layer of safety, being that you can't wind up with more GH than you can secrete.

Another one is Pinealon; I've yet to try it. Going to source it shortly.

Re: the secretagogues, I'm more than likely not getting much of any additional GH release from using it at night given the big GH bolus in the AM, however, the sleep benefit isn't mediated via GH release but rather some other function. Jin has some commentary on this somewhere.

Hey question for you: does the telmisartan make much difference as far as fluid? I know it's not a diuretic per se but it seems like it should have a mild effect on fluid balance

Thanks as always for the good information

Yeah it does have an impact on fluid balance. Hard for me to quantify since I've been on 80mg for almost a decade now and haven't ever missed multiple doses in a row.

Given how it modulates the RAAS cascade it should, and I think you'll find that to ring true in a dose dependent manner.

Couple good friends are BB coaches and the majority of clients they put on telmisartan experience a positive impact on fluid balance / retention. Positive meaning less fluid retention.