rexy
Member
You'll find this thread worth a read. Someone from the forum tested their blood levels 8hrs after 35mg Test Prop and total test was >2000. It was 1500 by 16hr.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Simplicity, consistency, accountability
- Thread starter twreck555
- Start date
Thank you brother, I appreciate the information and the non judgemental words of caution. I'll definitely scour the linked resources and learn all i can.Very nice effort. Just be careful with steroid plotter. Latest version got screwed up.
This may also be of interest:
Testosterone propionate supposedly the best ester?
Im slow what's a pk profile ? My bad...pharmacokinetic profile. What steroid plotter tries to provide.www.excelmale.com
Caution with test propionate. Also way off with the latest changes made to the tool. In trying to improve the tool, they ruined it.
TLDR: the PK parameters in steroid plotter for Test P are f'ed and the uncertainty on the calculated serum levels are quite high.
Continuing the dose response thread over here. This would be a great place to crowdsource data.
Tool to Assess your TT Dose Response -- Percentile Curves
Summary: Tools to estimate your individual dose response for injectable testosterone ester in comparison to a normal distribution (95 percentile confidence estimate) of adult males (Ref). Plot below shows a summary of data from (1) clinical trials gathered from the literature + (2)...forums.t-nation.com
readalot (aka tareload) introduction
Hello Fellow Body Dysmorphia [sic] sufferers. Looks like I have made to to the audition at Meso (after ExcelMale and I have basically parted ways and TNation as well haha). Spent years on TNation and ExcelMale under the handle Readalot and then Tareload (long and silly story). If you are really...thinksteroids.com
I will post up the requirements for sharing user data. A chart with FT vs dose would be better but unfortunately that's not how the history of analytical chemistry with serum testosterone shook out.
Previously I compared published pharmacokinetic studies against user data taken via...
I'd just use Test Cyp twice weekly and target upper normal if you are dead set on the TRT thing. But your experiment will bring you experience. I was hoping you'd get more feedback on the Test Prop. Guys have spent years trying to dial in various protocols.
Best wishes!
I'm going to give this an honest run though and see what happens. If things start to go sideways (bp, hr, subjective feels, etc) I'll pull labs early and reassess. In which case I'll gain knowledge from my experience if nothing else. But I am definitely hopeful that this will be a positive experience.
Thanks for this brother. Makes me want to do serial labs too and see how i respond.You'll find this thread worth a read. Someone from the forum tested their blood levels 8hrs after 35mg Test Prop and total test was >2000. It was 1500 by 16hr.
If this is correct, daily dosing of propionate in mct (which is what I am using as well) might actually give a better result than every other day.
This really is a bottomless rabbit hole isn't it?
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Jin23
Well-known Member
Thanks for this brother. Makes me want to do serial labs too and see how i respond.
If this is correct, daily dosing of propionate in mct (which is what I am using as well) might actually give a better result than every other day.
This really is a bottomless rabbit hole isn't it?
It is, but not really. As I said, you need hcg. It's not just DHT that's important. Hcg also keeps your leydig cells alive, if you wish to end trt one day, that's a big plus.
Regarding your transition to prop, you do realize that you are causing a transient bump in your TT levels as you still have Tc in your system? So now you are again going up in androgen levels.
And regarding the steroid plotter, those aren't your numbers, that is just the median. You actually have no idea what your mg to ng/dl ratio is so do not presume anything.
Regarding prop, you aren't following your natural pulses or anything, idk from where you got that idea. You'd need transdermal for that. Anything injected, if nothing else, has a "long" absorption phase. So let's say 12 to 24h's to Tmax and then 12 to 24h to T1/2. How is that at all similar to natural testosterone release? You should have just stuck to Tc, waited a couple of months, get your T levels to where you wanted them to be and see how you respond.
Yes, he clearly needs to do things his own way, go through the experience himself.
Yeah I'm on board with the hcg. I will definitely introduce at some point. I do think there would be benefit from it and I would like to try, once I find a stable protocol on the test only. I would like to get the benefits of increased upstream hormones as well as increased intratesticular testosterone, and everything else that functioning leydig cells contribute. Sperm i literally could not care less about, since that system has been purposefully decommissioned long ago.
I am aware that there is some amount of cypionate still in the system, which will slowly dissipate over the next few weeks. I'm just not worried about it.
I'm not at all presuming that the steroid plotter will represent my actual numbers, of course not. It's a model, clearly, and every individual will respond differently. Labs will show how I respond, and I will adjust accordingly.
It is unfortunate that, beyond the obvious inherent limitations of the model, steroidplotter may actually have incorrect pharmacokinetics programmed in for propionate.
Given the serial labs posted above, it would seem that propionate actually peaks and dissipates much more quickly than the numbers you quoted or what is programmed into the model, clearly before 16 hours and possibly even before 8, at least for that individual, though with only two data points we can't say for sure if the peak happened in the 0-8 hour window or the 8-16 hour window.
And obviously it is not possible to exactly reproduce the daily natural rhythm of testosterone secretion no matter what you do, using any mode of delivery or combination. And certainly not with a 48 hour cycle of drug delivery considering the natural cycle repeats every 24 hours. That was not my goal. My goal was to introduce more variability into the system, which is arguably more like the fluctuating nature of the endogenous rhythm than a system of very stable levels.
It is certainly possible that given enough time I would have eventually found a way to make cypionate work for me, but I wanted to try something different and so I'm trying it. If it doesn't work, I'll try something else. But i'm optimistic.
As to what I should have done have done or not done, that is nothing more than speculation. You have your speculations and I have mine, as to what will come neither of us can say for sure.
The main thing that I could see needing to change would be more frequent than EOD dosing. If the peak is actually closer to.16 hours then EOD should be OK. But if it's more like 5 hours then clearly prop should be dosed daily and I'll be in for some insane fluctuations over the next few weeks. We shall see and, like I said, if things go awry I'll reassess.
But I'll do my best to stick it out to the five week mark, when the cyp will finally be out of the system, and see where that puts me. If dose or frequency need adjustment I'll do that with high priority, along with estrogen management as needed. Once that's been more or less stable at acceptable levels for some time, I'll introduce HCG.
One interesting thing will be to see if there will be some recovery of the hpta even before the hcg. There is speculation that a protocol using short esters, with deep troughs, allows for some activity of the axis. I don’t know how true that is but I'm curious to see
readalot
Member
Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer
You got a link to those papers? Was just pulling one from 1890s the other day unrelated to this topic. So nice we have so much digitized. Much easier now than the good ole days. Maybe that is why my TT/fT is so low, I am not climbing the stairs at the health science library as much as I used to.
www.excelmale.com
Tmax may be lower than 12 hr.
Also look into nasal gel, troches OR mix of Test Prop/Test Cyp if you are looking to reproduce transient physiologic serum Test profile. Cataceous at ExcelMale covers the latter in detail.
Thanks man. Yeah I've already envisioned how to camp out at labcorp and map out the response in order to really see what the pharmacokinetics really are. If only they were open 24 hours lmao. Unfortunately I think this would take many measurements over several days, and since the nearest labcorp to me is nearly three hours away (I live in the sticks) that isn't exactly feasible.Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer
You got a link to those papers? Was just pulling one from 1890s the other day unrelated to this topic. So nice we have so much digitized. Much easier now than the good ole days. Maybe that is why my TT/fT is so low, I am not climbing the stairs at the health science library as much as I used to.
Tmax may be lower than 12 hr.
Also look into nasal gel, troches OR mix of Test Prop/Test Cyp if you are looking to reproduce transient physiologic serum Test profile. Cataceous at ExcelMale covers the latter in detail.
But we'll see how EOD goes, may try ED at the same weekly dose later and just see how it compares
readalot
Member
Also, that trans scrotal cream sounds amazing lol. Not something easy to obtain ugl... hmm... I bet chatgpt would tell me how to make it from test base tho
readalot
Member
Never tried it. Just pointing to Test Prop PK parameters fit from Nieschlag data.
There are many recipes for test cream/gel out there.
readalot
Member
Testosterone 2.5% in Isopropyl Myristate 5% Topical Gel
No way I'm rubbing this on my sack but you get the idea.
Versabase a better option for that area.
What Topical Testosterone Bases are Available?
There are many Topical Testosterone bases available depending on your needs. Topical application is a common delivery system for TRT.
www.defymedical.com
Yeah that post and several others seem to show test p returning practically to baseline in approximately 24 hrs or so, if that's the case then EOD dosing would provide both an unnecessarily high peak and an unnecessarily wide trough. Now I really want those serial measurements, which would also be slightly more convenient (for me) to obtain a satisfactory amount of data for, as it's would take only two days to get data from two different 'microcycles,' of administration vs 4 days in the case of EOD. Seriously pondering ED now, seems the way to go on prop given all the known facts. I put way too much faith in the steroidplotter.
Edit to add: the individual in this example definitely needed ED dosing, for example:
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Thank you for the info, perhaps I'll try to make some some day, out of curiosity more than anything else. I don't seriously see cream replacing injections for me but it certainly sounds intriguingTestosterone 2.5% in Isopropyl Myristate 5% Topical Gel
www.uspharmacist.com
No way I'm rubbing this on my sack but you get the idea.
Versabase a better option for that area.
What Topical Testosterone Bases are Available?
There are many Topical Testosterone bases available depending on your needs. Topical application is a common delivery system for TRT.
readalot
Member
Note the later erratum.Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer
You got a link to those papers? Was just pulling one from 1890s the other day unrelated to this topic. So nice we have so much digitized. Much easier now than the good ole days. Maybe that is why my TT/fT is so low, I am not climbing the stairs at the health science library as much as I used to.
Tmax may be lower than 12 hr.
Also look into nasal gel, troches OR mix of Test Prop/Test Cyp if you are looking to reproduce transient physiologic serum Test profile. Cataceous at ExcelMale covers the latter in detail.
Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer
You got a link to those papers? Was just pulling one from 1890s the other day unrelated to this topic. So nice we have so much digitized. Much easier now than the good ole days. Maybe that is why my TT/fT is so low, I am not climbing the stairs at the health science library as much as I used to.
www.excelmale.com
Yeah absolutely. I'm not considering switching to the cream but I admit i an curious, since readalot linked to a thread that was all about cream, so I wanted to learn more.
I realize I've been changing things too quickly to ever have the chance to settle, because in the beginning I went up way too high too soon and had side effects which were untenable.
I just two days ago switched to propionate because I did not like the effects I was getting on cypionate, namely the extra ten pounds of fluid that I was carrying, and a return of the profound asexuality that was part of my reason for going on testosterone in the first place. I attributed this to the ester itself but I also admit that I have no way to tell if it was in fact the ester itself and how my body responded to it, the frequency of dose with the long ester which was daily, the dose itself, which was until recently much higher, the fact that I was running growth hormone simultaneously, or some combination of all of those things.
So yeah to summarize the titration, done too quickly to see the effects of each step:
Test c 210 primo 105, hgh 3/d in October.
Test to 280 primo to 70 end of October
Test to 210 primo to zero beginning of November
Test to 150 hgh to 2 just after starting the log
Played with the ideas of 140 or 120 Test and ended up going down to 120, then 100, dropped hgh, dropped cypionate.
Started test prop at 105/wk two days ago, six days after the last cypionate. Will stay at this dose my initial plan was five weeks but I can see the merit in staying for six.
I have absolutely made a mess of things but at the same time the fluid retention is resolving, my sexual function is beginning to return, and this pervasive feeling of being stuck in slow motion is starting to lift. I am 100% doing better than I was on 210/wk of cypionate.
I will absolutely hold here x 5-6 weeks and reassess. Totally agree.
TestyisBesty
New Member
“I will absolutely hold here x 5-6 weeks and reassess. Totally agree.”
I hope so, i get you have some contributing factors but it’s really not as difficult and confusing. Stick to this dose, train, cardio, solid diet, sleep … repeat.
Try 3-4 months not just 5-6 weeks.
Ironic !!!! The title of your log “simplicity / consistency” and what actually is taking place is so far from that lol.
Good luck, let your body adjust.
I hope so, i get you have some contributing factors but it’s really not as difficult and confusing. Stick to this dose, train, cardio, solid diet, sleep … repeat.
Try 3-4 months not just 5-6 weeks.
Ironic !!!! The title of your log “simplicity / consistency” and what actually is taking place is so far from that lol.
Good luck, let your body adjust.
just know that right now you have the cyp in your system on top of the prop. So you can’t judge anything yet.
I chose 6 weeks because that’s the general rule of thumb prior to doing blood work for the first time. But ya even that’s premature to really gauge how you feel.
Whatever you’ve decided on just stay with it.
I chose 6 weeks because that’s the general rule of thumb prior to doing blood work for the first time. But ya even that’s premature to really gauge how you feel.
Whatever you’ve decided on just stay with it.
Yes absolutely, thank you.
Yeah the whole point of keeping this log is to get myself to calm down and focus on what is actually important rather than endlessly obsessing over irrelevant or counterproductive minutiae. With limited success, admittedly, so far but that's the intention.
If I didn't desire to move in this direction, I certainly wouldn't keep this log, as of course I know full well that I'll be called out for my ridiculous behavior. But I do, that's the point, and so here I am, taking my licks.
I appreciate all of the feedback from the community. I appreciate the opportunity to be transparent and learn from those with more experience in this realm.
I have a strong foundation of knowledge in biology and medicine but that can be a curse as well as a blessing, so it's good to get the straight shots that cut through all the bullshit.
So many opportunities to wander off into the weeds along this path
