AlexDavis43
Member
That's another good study but still trying to put it together with 330.
Why did that kid have a heart attack?
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That's another good study but still trying to put it together with 330.
Why did that kid have a heart attack?
AlexDavis43
Member
Link the PMID or URL to the abstract on PubMed or just post the damn study title lol
I'll post the pdf if possible.
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
There are alot of things being thrown here around AAS use and health.
Looking at the title and jumping to conclusions rather than dissecting the root cause of everything.
AlexDavis43
Member
Effects of testosterone and nandrolone on cardiac function: a randomized, placebo-controlled study (attached).
Fattyone
Well-known Member
The male body produces on average, 6-7 mg a day of testosterone. Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance).
6 x 7days = 42 mg /wk.
If 100mg a week does not provide you normal levels of testosterone, then you have a problem unrelated to dosing.
I have no idea what your physical condition is (no idea), but the typical cause of low testosterone is high body fat.
Microdosing TRT – The Future of Testosterone Replacement Therapy - The Men’s Health Clinic
Microdosing is the most effective way to mimic natural Testosterone levels and minimise side effects. We explain why in this article.themenshealthclinic.co.uk
So why are you taking over double the amount?
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
thanks.
this shows the 4 week LVH on 200mg of test is not remarkable at all.
I am all for studies/safety but this seems like a "big scare" article.
Fattyone
Well-known Member
I agree the concept is solid and needed. I’ve just chose to die on this hill, it’s all in the physiological range, not some arbitrary line that once you cross not you’re unhealthy (200mg/week).
There are guys out there who would be at Supra-physiological levels at 100mg a week, there’s some who aren’t at 200.
It’s like saying everyone with high blood pressure needs 40mg telmisartan. Anyone on 60 or 80 is abusing it.
AlexDavis43
Member
Not necessary in this context. "True TRT" as you say is not a huge biological intervention. Effect size is pretty small for practically all other outcomes other than dick function and mood.
It's not like syphilis +/- penicillin.
malfeasance
Well-known Member
Thanks for posting the entire thing.
I think you are missing the point.
Do you really think that injecting anything four times is going to result in a massive, failing heart?
The point here is that four injections at what is considered here a low dose made some things relating to heart function move in the wrong direction.
"However, a mild increase in the endsystolic diameter of the LV and RV was seen in the testosterone group. The observed small increases in chamber sizes were within accepted normal ranges for healthy young men and do not have immediate clinical significance." Translation: There was an increase after only four shots, but not enough to drive it up into the range where we would be clinically concerned.
Well, of course not. It was only 4 injections.
Then there is this.
"Recent refinements of echocardiographic colour TDI derived parameters have allowed detection of early subclinical changes on cardiac filling and myocardial velocities.68,69 A reduction in mitral annular Sm velocity is a sensitive marker of mildly impaired LV systolic function even in patients with apparently ‘normal’ LVEF and is reduced in LV diastolic dysfunction.69 When combined with the mitral inflow E wave, the derived E/Em ratio is useful to estimate the LV filling pressures.32,33 While the LVEF was within normal limits in both androgen groups, minor reduction of mitral annular Em velocity and elevation of E/Em ratio were observed in the testosterone group. These changes suggest a mildly adverse effect of testosterone on LV diastolic function. Whether these effects would translate to changes in overall cardiac structure and LVEF after prolonged exposure to androgens remain unclear. Longer-term studies incorporating these colour TDI derived parameters will be required to assess whether these changes persists, increase, resolve or become clinically significant."
Translation: Heart function went the wrong way here in the testosterone group, even though this was only 4 injections. It went the wrong way, but in 4 weeks it did not go the wrong way far enough to be outside the normal range. We'd like to see a longer study, to see if it would continue, but we did not have enough $$$ to go longer than 4 weeks. Maybe somebody reading this will give us a grant. Going past 4 weeks might tell us whether this would continue going in the wrong direction until it would "become clinically significant."
There are points here not to be missed.
If you had asked me prior to reading this whether 4 injections once a week of 200mg of testosterone would have had any negative effects on the heart that researchers could detect, I would have laughed in your face. Now, I wouldn't, because, well, there it is.
malfeasance
Well-known Member
You are just guessing.
That's the difference.
You don't really have any idea what the effect of 200mg would be, well, except for what this study says. You just "hope" it will be different for you than for the participants in the study.
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
its still not signficant changes. I would hardly say the wrong way, it is still WNL and not out of parameters worsening.
That is your interpretation of what the researcher team wrote.
"Whether these effects would translate to changes in overall cardiac structure and LVEF after prolonged exposure to androgens remain unclear."
This is hardly any type of significant changes on the heart.
malfeasance
Well-known Member
I haven't seen one, and I am not sure why somebody would - if there is some issue, just reduce the dosage. 75-100 mg a week is a pretty common dosage outside of the "hormone clinics" with real doctors who care about your long term health.
malfeasance
Well-known Member
My interpretation is in the "translation" part. The part in quotes is a quote.
and the researchers concluded, quote, "a mildly adverse effect of testosterone on LV diastolic function."
You are correct to point out that the effects of longer term (longer than 4 weeks) was unknown, but that is because they did not test for longer than 4 weeks.
That does not mean that it was unremarkable. In fact, they remarked on it. Remarking on it means that the researchers thought it was remarkable. That is what the word means, "worthy of attention." Remark is to say something about it.
malfeasance
Well-known Member
Here you go, a quote, without my commentary, and with surrounding context. Critique away.
"Recent refinements of echocardiographic colour TDI derived parameters have allowed detection of early subclinical changes on cardiac filling and myocardial velocities.68,69 A reduction in mitral annular Sm velocity is a sensitive marker of mildly impaired LV systolic function even in patients with apparently ‘normal’ LVEF and is reduced in LV diastolic dysfunction.69 When combined with the mitral inflow E wave, the derived E/Em ratio is useful to estimate the LV filling pressures.32,33 While the LVEF was within normal limits in both androgen groups, minor reduction of mitral annular Em velocity and elevation of E/Em ratio were observed in the testosterone group. These changes suggest a mildly adverse effect of testosterone on LV diastolic function. Whether these effects would translate to changes in overall cardiac structure and LVEF after prolonged exposure to androgens remain unclear. Longer-term studies incorporating these colour TDI derived parameters will be required to assess whether these changes persists, increase, resolve or become clinically significant."
"Recent refinements of echocardiographic colour TDI derived parameters have allowed detection of early subclinical changes on cardiac filling and myocardial velocities.68,69 A reduction in mitral annular Sm velocity is a sensitive marker of mildly impaired LV systolic function even in patients with apparently ‘normal’ LVEF and is reduced in LV diastolic dysfunction.69 When combined with the mitral inflow E wave, the derived E/Em ratio is useful to estimate the LV filling pressures.32,33 While the LVEF was within normal limits in both androgen groups, minor reduction of mitral annular Em velocity and elevation of E/Em ratio were observed in the testosterone group. These changes suggest a mildly adverse effect of testosterone on LV diastolic function. Whether these effects would translate to changes in overall cardiac structure and LVEF after prolonged exposure to androgens remain unclear. Longer-term studies incorporating these colour TDI derived parameters will be required to assess whether these changes persists, increase, resolve or become clinically significant."
malfeasance
Well-known Member
The introduction to this paragraph is noting, that, hey, we have new technology now. It allows us to see early (that is, before it is too bad) subclinical changes (changes before it is too bad) even when folks have normal range ejection fraction, you know, like the testosterone group in this study.
And do you know what we saw when we applied this new fangled tech to these otherwise in-the-normal-range folks in the study? We saw a mildly adverse effect on diastolic function. Now, don't panic. We did not run this study long enough to know whether these changes would continue. They might, and heart function might become clinically significant (already too bad), or over time maybe the changes would even increase (accelerate) or maybe they would just resolve on their own. We don't know. A longer term study is needed. Please send us grant money.
Now tell me how inaccurate my plain old hillbilly translation is.
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
Would still need a trend to see how "adverse" it is. 4 week evaluation of something still being within normal limits is not enough data to state 200mg is dangerous. I'm not saying 200mg is necessary.
Lab values, echoes, etc can be obtained a short time apart and be very different. even under the same conditions.
Again. We need to see a real trend.
EF going down by 1 percent is nothing.
Lab values, echoes, etc can be obtained a short time apart and be very different. even under the same conditions.
Again. We need to see a real trend.
EF going down by 1 percent is nothing.
malfeasance
Well-known Member
That would require a longer study, which is what the researchers said.
malfeasance
Well-known Member
This was 2007.
Has nobody done a follow up?
Has nobody done a follow up?
Spaceman Spiff
Well-known Member
they are letting some of these 500mg cruising 150lb twinks set the standard
There is a very men's health urologist at a well known teaching hospital near me.. I seen him put a guy on 200mg of test C a week.
There is a very men's health urologist at a well known teaching hospital near me.. I seen him put a guy on 200mg of test C a week.
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