Beastmoderock
New Member
I have to say dr. Jim you have one dam good personality. You have done nothing but try to down play me as a liar. While not contributing anything to the post I started in the first place.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
What to use instead of nolvadex
- Thread starter Beastmoderock
- Start date
Beastmoderock
New Member
So, Dr. Jim are you trying to say I shouldn't be concerned with taking nolvadex?
Beastmoderock
New Member
Or should I given a side effect nolvadex can cause is pancreatitis. Do you think it would be wise to steer away from this serm. Or should I not be concerned. Thanks Dr. Jimmy
Bc almost any drug may be associated with or related to the development of pancreatitis, the relative risk for Tamoxifen (whatever that may be) is yours to accept or decline.
Beastmoderock
New Member
Thanks
Megadick3000
Well-known Member
Don't forget teenage pregnancies too.
To op: you need to run an AI or have it on hand at least. SERMs for estrogen control is old school. Letrozole, anastrozole, or Exemestane are your AI options, any will work.
SERM does not block estrogen in all body tissue... SERMS do not lower estrogen.. serms do not control estrogen, only block them at soem sites like the GLANDS in breast. so SERMS would not help estro related edema. and off cycle estrogen levels normal but with some gyno issue, SERMS are the way to go. you dont need to crash your natty level os healthy estrogen with an AI when you can use a SERM to block and starve the issue area while leaving the rest alone. ..
on cycle using n AI and controlling estrogen is likely to keep any sort fo gyno away. dont wait for the issue, prevent it . lso SERM on cycle even when blocking the breast leave estrogen sky high in the rest of the body , basically a bandaid to actually fixing the issue on cycle.
not sure what your are pointing at with link.
but there is ref for things i stated in there. if i made an error in that thread i may need to correct it.
Primarily that you are incorrect about AI usage and controlling estrogen is the way to prevent GCM
im lost on what you mean man. on cycle ofcourse controlling estrogen when its high is the way to go. but people with gyno, specially that got it from a cycle that didnt go to well and that are off cycle and with gyno but normal estrogen... well then a SERM is the way to go. other wise using an AI would crash estrogen. maybe we are miss understanding eachother some point i unno.
i agree the best way to control and avoid gyno is to control your estrogen with an AI.
The best way to treat and/or control gyno is through SERM usage. An AI will not prevent gyno.
One simple example of this is gyno from drol. Drol does not aromatize but does cause gyno. How will an AI prevent gyno from drol?
Jimmyinkedup
New Member
I agree. Use an ai to MANAGE your e2, keep it at proper levels. This was you get all of the good with none of the bad effects of e2.
drol is an odd compound thats not fully understood.
what is understood is high estrogen can cause gyno and keeping estrogen in healthy level can prevent high estrogen and gyno. your saying that AI wont work but the fact that a SERM would by blocking estrogen shows an AI keeping estrogen normal low level would. so your contridicting yourself a bit. a SERM will block the gleands, it will help prevent gyno, but it will not fix the unhealthy levels of eatrogen causing it. so why would you band aid the underlaying issue with a SERM when you could keep it from even becoming an issue and helping keep estrogen in check and other related issues to high estrogen?
drol causes gyno and its not understood fully. that i agree... but thats pretty bad to use as an example or present as a fact...
if you are taking compound liek test or dianabol and know the main action is from estrogen for gyno related issues then you know an AI would work.
if you use a SERM or an AI with a cycle of say drol, you may or may not still get gyno, there are other actions at play with drol. we are not talkign one or two off compounds. we are talking the main cause of gyno which is high estrogen and when using deca and tren other hormones come into play as well.
this is just like the last convo i had before taking a break from meso, just not worth trying to convince someone that heard from some that they think knows it all and respects or thinks they know ti all themselves (this is not directed at you or meant as an offense, just venting a bit)
there are soo many levels to this topic but i hope you get what im sayin and how just because there may play some compounds that also caus issues of gyno, to think that means test or others like it would not be right with an AI.
like does leaving estrogen high and just using a SERM really sound that smart to you?
what because drol gives you gyno so all of it out the window? thats so silly to me man..
there are drugs out there can cause gyno and have side effects. doesnt mean OUR main concern for gyno from cycles doesnt have its optimal way of being dealt with.
will a serm avoid basic gyno? yes will an AI avoid basic gyno? yes
is a serm the optimum compound to use to avoid gyno on cycle of aromatizing compounds such as test or dbol? no .. is an AI? yes.
i dont think i need to repeat as to why it is the optimal option, not just for preventing gyno, but for whole body health vs, blocking one spot and leaving the estro to run a muck in checked.
if you still disagree then lets just agree to disagree....
are you telling me that your 100% sure a SERM will prevent it from drol? we dont even fully know the action it does this so that in it self shows you cant even make that statement.. plus trust me you feel better on cycle when you have normal estrogen, that alone is enough of a reason for me, gyno aside. and bloat, and more acne than norm and blood pressure.. and ... anyways
The MOA through which drol causes gyno is actually understood. Rather than aromatize, it's metabolites interact with and act as agonists on the estradiol receptor in breast tissue which is why a SERM will work whereas an AI will not.
I have never stated once that I wouldn't use an AI to manage on cycle E2 so please reread what I've written and don't put words in my mouth. But managing E2 on cycle will not prevent gyno. You are mistaken.
You were also provided anecdotal examples as well as studies by Dr. Scally to show you that E2 is not the culprit of high BP with AAS use but you either forgot about it or ignored it. Once again you're mistaken.
And yes, a SERM is THE drug of choice to prevent/control gyno whether on cycle or off. Period. Full stop. End of story. The more you post the more you put your foot in your mouth I'm sorry to say.
I have never stated once that I wouldn't use an AI to manage on cycle E2 so please reread what I've written and don't put words in my mouth. But managing E2 on cycle will not prevent gyno. You are mistaken.
You were also provided anecdotal examples as well as studies by Dr. Scally to show you that E2 is not the culprit of high BP with AAS use but you either forgot about it or ignored it. Once again you're mistaken.
And yes, a SERM is THE drug of choice to prevent/control gyno whether on cycle or off. Period. Full stop. End of story. The more you post the more you put your foot in your mouth I'm sorry to say.
Megadick3000
Well-known Member
Do you have any references for this? Not challenging you just curious to see the science, as I'd always heard it was progesterone-related but it's been a widely debated topic over the years. Would love to see the biochemical studies where this was determined.
Once again you're in error, bc SERMS do block E-2 receptors exclusive of breast tissue and such effects alter capillary permeability and decrease bloat.
Of course the other HUGE problem with respect to AIs and GCM (exclusive of the FACT many fail to understand the difference bt a sore tit and CGM, so "successful" treatment of GCM in brodom is poorly defined) is the degree of E-2 suppression required often results in significant hypoestrogenemic side effects.
Additionally AIs are of limited benefit when cycling with AAS that raise E-2 levels via a non-aromatase pathway such as Nandrolone and Adrol.
Like many things one size does not fit all comers.
Last edited:
Sure thing. From Llewellyn's Anabolics:
Oxymetholone is a highly estrogenic steroid. Gynecomastia is often a concern during treatment, and may present itself quite early into a cycle (particularly when higher doses are used). At the same time water retention can become a problem, causing a notable loss of muscle definition as both subcutaneous water retention and fat levels build. To avoid strong estrogenic side effects, it may be necessary to use an anti-estrogen such as Nolvadex® or Clomid®. It is important to note that oxymetholone does not directly convert to estrogen in the body. This steroid is a derivative of dihydrotestosterone, and as such cannot be aromatized. Anti-aromatase compounds such as Cytadren and Arimidex® will, likewise, not effect the relative estrogenicity of this steroid. Some have suggested that the high level of estrogenic activity in oxymetholone is actually due to the drug acting as a progestin, similar to nandrolone. The side effects of both estrogens and progestins can be very similar, which might have made this explanation a plausible one. There was a medical study examining the progestational activity of oxymetholone, however, and it determined that there was no such activity present.386 With such findings, it seems most plausible that oxymetholone can activate the estrogen receptor, similar to, but more profoundly than, the estrogenic androgen methandriol.
Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Similar threads
