What to use instead of nolvadex

[Megadick3000]

Thx. ALthough from what I understand it's just speculative. There is no estrogen receptor affinity studies using oxymethelone or metabolites?? Fuck now I've gotta PubMed it. Nope can't find shit. Makes sense though.

 

[Dr JIM]

Hardly since Anadrol has been an FDA approved anabolic med for DECADES it's one of the most studied not withstanding a few other FDA APPROVED AAS.

All that is required is a bonafied desire to KNOW the truth, a significant amount of time in addition to the practical application of physiology and pharmacology.

You need help with the latter; myself, Doc D and a several other Meso members are more than qualified to do exactly that.

 

[Juced]

The MOA through which drol causes gyno is actually understood. Rather than aromatize, it's metabolites interact with and act as agonists on the estradiol receptor in breast tissue which is why a SERM will work whereas an AI will not.

I have never stated once that I wouldn't use an AI to manage on cycle E2 so please reread what I've written and don't put words in my mouth. But managing E2 on cycle will not prevent gyno. You are mistaken.

You were also provided anecdotal examples as well as studies by Dr. Scally to show you that E2 is not the culprit of high BP with AAS use but you either forgot about it or ignored it. Once again you're mistaken.

And yes, a SERM is THE drug of choice to prevent/control gyno whether on cycle or off. Period. Full stop. End of story. The more you post the more you put your foot in your mouth I'm sorry to say.

it is not and i feel the same about you as well so ill just drop it. an ai would keep gyno away with MOST cycles. things liek deca and drol are more complicated i agree, but even with deca i found using ai lessens prog and other related issues.
yes i remember scallys posts and think he is very off on this. the guy knows alot of stuff and it worth a look at but sure as hell not on everything and his childish behavior in that thread and others to me showed insecurity and ego (on high horse)... well i just left it be. his analogy liek the one about people attacking a casle was flawed in my op, let them attack but have a good wall? how about stopping the unrest in firstplace.

i can post studies showing AI use helps gyno i can show studys SERM use helps gyno, not the point. both work on the same compounds, whats optimal in my op is not a SERM on cycle.
managing e2 with most basic aas compounds like dbol, test, methyltest and even deca (to a degree) will prevent gyno. like fuck man i know from my own exp, and from people and from research. scally and you are wrong on this . but im done arguing it believe what you want and i will do the same man.
like the fact some crash estro using ai just to get ride of gyno shows it helps, though i DO NOT rec doing this, off cycle i would rec a serm to do damage control after the fact, for not using an ai and managing e2 in most cases...

anyways good debate i guess.

ps, Llewellyn, William. is off base on alot of his stuff. specially his cycles... he has basic understanding, but his book is good for that and the pics. along with basic endocrine info. iv read more than one. but just look at the cycles he rec's most look like what a noob would post. no exp, just research IMO

 

[Juced]

Hardly since Anadrol has been an FDA approved anabolic med for DECADES it's one of the most studied not withstanding a few other FDA APPROVED AAS.

All that is required is a bonafied desire to KNOW the truth, a significant amount of time in addition to the practical application of physiology and pharmacology.

You need help with the latter; myself, Doc D and a several other Meso members are more than qualified to do exactly that.

there is alot they dont fully understand about drol and other aas and peptides. actions and effects to most extent yes but alot of underlying things no. just because they know about drol for x amount of years doesnt mean there is complete understanding. imo
i do agree its well studied to a degree.

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

Serms do nothing for water retention/bloat...at all. They also do nothing to manage your e2 levels....at all. They simply block the receptor in select areas and prevent e2 from exerting its effects IN THOSE AREAS, not systemically.

 

[Docd187123]

Serms do nothing for water retention/bloat...at all. They also do nothing to manage your e2 levels....at all. They simply block the receptor in select areas and prevent e2 from exerting its effects IN THOSE AREAS, not systemically.

You should read the OP Jimmy as the original question was for a replacement for nolva. An AI will not replace nolva. We weren't talking about managing E2 levels until Juced sidetracked the thread with that discussion. Furthermore, we both know he is also wrong about the way to prevent gyno being AI use. Here is but one reference

As gynecomastia in men presumably results from an imbalance between androgen and estrogen action, aromatase inhibition was tested as a treatment for gynecomastia in boys. Treatment with anastrozole daily for 6 months, however, did not result in a significant improvement compared with placebo [67]. This is in accordance with the data summarized in a recent review [68], describing similar responses to placebo, tamoxifen and anastrozole in a number of observational studies. Anastrozole was also studied in a group of prostate cancer patients treated with bicalutamide, an androgen antagonist. A dose of 1 mg daily appeared to be mildly effective against the appearance of gynecomastia. Tamoxifen was much more effective, however, in the prevention of gynecomastia in these men [69,70].

Aromatase inhibitors in men: effects and therapeutic options

 

[Juced]

was wondering what I can use instead of nolva. Reason being is I had acute pancreatitis 8 years ago from chantix and read nolva can cause acute pancreatitis. I don't want to risk getting acute pancreatitis again. I have done many cycles since, but always left nolva out. Any options would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Rock

he doesnt say if its for gyno, for PCT or for on cycle use, so i got into multiple uses of it and our debate started.... and no i am not wrong here about AI us eon cycle to avoid gyno. but i digress.

 

[Juced]

You should read the OP Jimmy as the original question was for a replacement for nolva. An AI will not replace nolva. We weren't talking about managing E2 levels until Juced sidetracked the thread with that discussion. Furthermore, we both know he is also wrong about the way to prevent gyno being AI use. Here is but one reference

As gynecomastia in men presumably results from an imbalance between androgen and estrogen action, aromatase inhibition was tested as a treatment for gynecomastia in boys. Treatment with anastrozole daily for 6 months, however, did not result in a significant improvement compared with placebo [67]. This is in accordance with the data summarized in a recent review [68], describing similar responses to placebo, tamoxifen and anastrozole in a number of observational studies. Anastrozole was also studied in a group of prostate cancer patients treated with bicalutamide, an androgen antagonist. A dose of 1 mg daily appeared to be mildly effective against the appearance of gynecomastia. Tamoxifen was much more effective, however, in the prevention of gynecomastia in these men [69,70].

Aromatase inhibitors in men: effects and therapeutic options

here is one for you , since the one you post is related to puberty and men on a drug known to cause issues in other pathways. >>>
Treatment of testosterone-induced gynecomastia with the aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole
International Journal of Impotence Research - Treatment of testosterone-induced gynecomastia with the aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole

plus im talking about avoiding gyno. getting rid of it after you already let your estrogen go wild on cycle or from using off compounds, i already said SERM is best....

the setting/condition of studies is important to take anything real from them in terms of our uses......

 

[Docd187123]

here is one for you , since the one you post is related to puberty and men on a drug known to cause issues in other pathways. >>>
Treatment of testosterone-induced gynecomastia with the aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole
International Journal of Impotence Research - Treatment of testosterone-induced gynecomastia with the aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole

plus im talking about avoiding gyno. getting rid of it after you already let your estrogen go wild on cycle or from using off compounds, i already said SERM is best....

the setting/condition of studies is important to take anything real from them in terms of our uses......

You posted a case study involving a whopping 2 individuals which says nothing about GYNO PREVENTION, only treatment. This study does NOTHING to help your position.

And to argue the study I posted was related to puberty is asinine. Do you think treatment of gynecomastia differs with age??? I mean seriously?!?! then the comment about a drug known to cause gyno and issues with other pathways.....AS IF AAS DOESNT DO THE SAME

L-O-L

 

[Juced]

You posted a case study involving a whopping 2 individuals which says nothing about GYNO PREVENTION, only treatment. This study does NOTHING to help your position.

And to argue the study I posted was related to puberty is asinine. Do you think treatment of gynecomastia differs with age??? I mean seriously?!?! then the comment about a drug known to cause gyno and issues with other pathways.....AS IF AAS DOESNT DO THE SAME

L-O-L

im saying its more complex with puberty , im not saying it wouldent help, as for prostate cancer drugs that becomes even more complicated. yes its a small study, there are others out there, specially in the trt community and exp in aas community. and yes the treatment could differ depending on the causes! and the causes are not soo simple. for our use of aas they are a bit more, depending what you are using..

ok lets all just use a SERM in place of avoiding gyno in the first place with an AI that would prevent it with most compounds we use like test ... thats the way to go : /

im not wasting any more time on this here, its like talking to a wall and im sure you feel the same...
i dont get your logic... if using Aromatizable Compounds such as test, dbol etc and knowing e2 can cause gyno and knowing an AI lowers and can keep e2 in check, how the heck can you seriously sit there and say an AI on cycle wont prevent gyno? thats what is asinine to me...

 

[Docd187123]

im saying its more complex with puberty

More complex with puberty? Bc a grown man running 1-6 or more exogenous hormones along with ancillary drugs, possibly peptides, etc is less complex?

, im not saying it wouldent help, as for prostate cancer drugs that becomes even more complicated. yes its a small study, there are others out there, specially in the trt community and exp in aas community.

Unfortunately for your argument, the weight of the evidence in the scientific community disagrees with you and says SERMs are the most effective treatment and prevention method for gyno.

Also unfortunate for your argument is the fact that the experience of ~95% of the AAS community think itchy and/or puffy nipples is gyno....take their "experience" with less than a grain of salt.

and yes the treatment could differ depending on the causes! and the causes are not soo simple. for our use of aas they are a bit more, depending what you are using..

Treatment does not differ here. You have no idea what your talking about.

ok lets all just use a SERM in place of avoiding gyno in the first place with an AI that would prevent it with most compounds we use like test ... thats the way to go : /

See, now you're learning

Sarcasm aside, as I've repeatedly told you, AIs shouldn't be used to prevent gyno. They should be used to manage estrogen levels. This will not prevent gyno. If one is gyno succeptivlesuccepttible and they wish to prevent gyno, then yes, they'd introduce a SERM as well bc THAT is the effective treatment.

im not wasting any more time on this here, its like talking to a wall and im sure you feel the same...
i dont get your logic... if using Aromatizable Compounds such as test, dbol etc and knowing e2 can cause gyno and knowing an AI lowers and can keep e2 in check, how the heck can you seriously sit there and say an AI on cycle wont prevent gyno? thats what is asinine to me...

Bc the studies, the scientific community, Dr. Scally, and many other leading doctors in the field have shown this. The study I referenced even went on to say that AIs are only MILDLY effective at preventing gyno.

 

[Juced]

" AIs shouldn't be used to prevent gyno. They should be used to manage estrogen levels. This will not prevent gyno. "
controlling estrogen WILL prevent MOST types of GYNO! god dammit...
ok im done. agree to disagree.
this is all

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

You should read the OP Jimmy as the original question was for a replacement for nolva. An AI will not replace nolva. We weren't talking about managing E2 levels until Juced sidetracked the thread with that discussion. Furthermore, we both know he is also wrong about the way to prevent gyno being AI use. Here is but one reference

As gynecomastia in men presumably results from an imbalance between androgen and estrogen action, aromatase inhibition was tested as a treatment for gynecomastia in boys. Treatment with anastrozole daily for 6 months, however, did not result in a significant improvement compared with placebo [67]. This is in accordance with the data summarized in a recent review [68], describing similar responses to placebo, tamoxifen and anastrozole in a number of observational studies. Anastrozole was also studied in a group of prostate cancer patients treated with bicalutamide, an androgen antagonist. A dose of 1 mg daily appeared to be mildly effective against the appearance of gynecomastia. Tamoxifen was much more effective, however, in the prevention of gynecomastia in these men [69,70].

Aromatase inhibitors in men: effects and therapeutic options

Replacement for Nolva??, how about toremifene.
Also as far as an ai preventing gyno the hopes are, by using an ai and managing e2 properly, you can not only prevent all the adverse side effects of elevated e2 in males and also, of course, avoid gyno. Now of course there are cases where both an ai and a serm must be used, the ai to manage gyno and the serm to prevent gyno. Also, since elevated e2 is not the only cause of gyno it can also br an androgen//estrogen imbalance, sometimes, as you said, an ai wont prevent gyno.
I think the overall premise is (or should be) to manage e2 with an ai and by doing so you can avoid all the adverse e2 related sides in males (including gyno). If thats not the case the adition of a serm may be necessary/ prudent. Im fairly sure you and I agree on this.

 

[Docd187123]

" AIs shouldn't be used to prevent gyno. They should be used to manage estrogen levels. This will not prevent gyno. "
controlling estrogen WILL prevent MOST types of GYNO! god dammit...
ok im done. agree to disagree.
this is all

No it will not as I've explained to you here and dr. Scally did in another thread.

 

[Juced]

Replacement for Nolva??, how about toremifene.
Also as far as an ai preventing gyno the hopes are, by using an ai and managing e2 properly, you can not only prevent all the adverse side effects of elevated e2 in males and also, of course, avoid gyno. Now of course there are cases where both an ai and a serm must be used, the ai to manage gyno and the serm to prevent gyno. Also, since elevated e2 is not the only cause of gyno it can also br an androgen//estrogen imbalance, sometimes, as you said, an ai wont prevent gyno.
I think the overall premise is (or should be) to manage e2 with an ai and by doing so you can avoid all the adverse e2 related sides in males (including gyno). If thats not the case the adition of a serm may be necessary/ prudent. Im fairly sure you and I agree on this.

agreed...

 

[Docd187123]

Replacement for Nolva??, how about toremifene.
Also as far as an ai preventing gyno the hopes are, by using an ai and managing e2 properly, you can not only prevent all the adverse side effects of elevated e2 in males and also, of course, avoid gyno. Now of course there are cases where both an ai and a serm must be used, the ai to manage gyno and the serm to prevent gyno. Also, since elevated e2 is not the only cause of gyno it can also br an androgen//estrogen imbalance, sometimes, as you said, an ai wont prevent gyno.
I think the overall premise is (or should be) to manage e2 with an ai and by doing so you can avoid all the adverse e2 related sides in males (including gyno). If thats not the case the adition of a serm may be necessary/ prudent. Im fairly sure you and I agree on this.

The only part I disagree with Jimmy is about the gyno. AIs are only "mildly effective" at preventing gyno to quote a study I referenced. Besides that but I do agree with your post.

 

[Juced]

No it will not as I've explained to you here and dr. Scally did in another thread.

scally is wrong on this topic ok. hes a good guy and has alot of good info and helps but he is off base here, and ive stated why in that thread and this one. i dont want to make this about him, thats passed but you keep bringing him up and to me thats a joke considering the archaic view he has on this topic and is wrong about imo. others no but this one? maybe you look up too highly of him i dont know.
i follow him on twitter and suggest others do as well, great info, even if just to get the ball rolling on own research. but hes far from perfect...

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

The only part I disagree with Jimmy is about the gyno. AIs are only "mildly effective" at preventing gyno to quote a study I referenced. Besides that but I do agree with your post.

Doc im not sure men with prostate cancer on an anti androgen are the best demographic for coming to that conclusion or using it as analogy to our situation, exogenous androgen introduction. My main reason for saying that is in recent research there seems to be a correlation between men susceptible to prostate cancer and the exhibition of a sensitivity, or over sensativity to estrogen.
Also, just going off of experience, personal and within the community, I know for myself when I used prov and nolvadex as my "estrogen protection" i didnt get gyno. That being said when ai's came around and I switched to an ai and kept my e2 levels in check I didnt get gyno then either and that really seems to be the consensus with the majority of aas users within the community. While there are a couple circumstances under which gyno caan form I dont think it can be argued that estrogen, predominantly the elevation of estrogen, is the primary culprit when it comes to aas induced gyno and an ai can and does certainly address this circumstance.
Regardless I certainly feel your first and IMO manditory course of action is to properly manage e2 with an ai and take it from there. Should gyno symptoms appear by all meaans introduce a serm. IMO ralox first followed by tamox or torem, clomid being a last resort if for some reason it was your only option.
Thats just my opinion on this.

 

[Docd187123]

scally is wrong on this topic ok. hes a good guy and has alot of good info and helps but he is off base here, and ive stated why in that thread and this one. i dont want to make this about him, thats passed but you keep bringing him up and to me thats a joke considering the archaic view he has on this topic and is wrong about imo. others no but this one? maybe you look up too highly of him i dont know.
i follow him on twitter and suggest others do as well, great info, even if just to get the ball rolling on own research. but hes far from perfect...

I mention him bc he is an expert in this field. Your background is what exactly?

I admit one can make a logical argument without needing to be an expert on a topic but your argument has failed miserably and the lone such you posted does absolutely nothing to help you. You're saying an AI prevents gyno. The CASE STUDY ON 2 PEOPLE you posted said not one word about gyno prevention.

 

[Docd187123]

Doc im not sure men with prostate cancer on an anti androgen are the best demographic for coming to that conclusion or using it as analogy to our situation, exogenous androgen introduction. My main reason for saying that is in recent research there seems to be a correlation between men susceptible to prostate cancer and the exhibition of a sensitivity, or over sensativity to estrogen.

That isn't the only reference Jimmy but regardless, if someone is overly sensitive to estrogen and one drug works more than 50% of the time whereas the other only about 10% of the time does that not say anything to you? Also consider the fact that SERMs are superior in almost every other circumstance as well

Also, just going off of experience, personal and within the community, I know for myself when I used prov and nolvadex as my "estrogen protection" i didnt get gyno. That being said when ai's came around and I switched to an ai and kept my e2 levels in check I didnt get gyno then either and that really seems to be the consensus with the majority of aas users within the community.

Have you ever had gyno?

While there are a couple circumstances under which gyno caan form I dont think it can be argued that estrogen, predominantly the elevation of estrogen, is the primary culprit when it comes to aas induced gyno and an ai can and does certainly address this circumstance.

This is where we disagree. An AI will effectively manage the E2 levels of the user but not prevent gyno. The studies back this up as well as the anecdotal experiences of doctors and users.

Regardless I certainly feel your first and IMO manditory course of action is to properly manage e2 with an ai and take it from there. Should gyno symptoms appear by all meaans introduce a serm. IMO ralox first followed by tamox or torem, clomid being a last resort if for some reason it was your only option.
Thats just my opinion on this.

I do not argue with this. I don't recommend throwing in a SERM just bc and I do recommend managing estrogen levels.