What's going on in Russia?

kawilt

New Member
Crimeans Keep Saying No to Ukraine
March 22, 2015


Exclusive: In a rare moment of honesty, a Western news outlet, Forbes, admits that the people of Crimea expressed their legitimate will in last year’s referendum when they voted to abandon Ukraine and rejoin Russia, an inconvenient truth for the U.S. State Department and press corps, writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

A central piece of the West’s false narrative on the Ukraine crisis has been that Russian President Vladimir Putin “invaded” Crimea and then staged a “sham” referendum purporting to show 96 percent support for leaving Ukraine and rejoining Russia. More recently, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland claimed that Putin has subjected Crimea to a “reign of terror.”

Both elements have been part of the “group think” that dominates U.S. political and media circles, but this propagandistic storyline simply isn’t true, especially the part about the Crimeans being subjugated by Russia.


Russian President Vladimir Putin addresses a crowd on May 9, 2014, celebrating the 69th anniversary of victory over Nazi Germany and the 70th anniversary of the liberation of the Crimean port city of Sevastopol from the Nazis. (Russian government photo)

Consistently, over the past year, polls conducted by major Western firms have revealed that the people of Crimea by overwhelming numbers prefer being part of Russia over Ukraine, an embarrassing reality that Forbes business magazine has now acknowledged.

An article by Kenneth Rapoza, a Forbes specialist on developing markets, cited these polls as showing that the Crimeans do not want the United States and the European Union to force them back into an unhappy marriage with Ukraine. “The Crimeans are happy right where they are” with Russia, Rapoza wrote.

“One year after the annexation of the Ukrainian peninsula in the Black Sea, poll after poll shows that the locals there — be they Ukrainians, ethnic Russians or Tartars are all in agreement: life with Russia is better than life with Ukraine,” he wrote, adding that “the bulk of humanity living on the Black Sea peninsula believe the referendum to secede from Ukraine was legit.”

Rapoza noted that a June 2014 Gallup poll, which was sponsored by the U.S. government’s Broadcasting Board of Governors, found that 82.8 percent of Crimeans said the March 16 referendum on secession reflected the views of the Crimean people. In the poll, when asked if joining Russia would improve their lives, 73.9 percent said yes and only 5.5 percent said no.

A February 2015 http://www.gfk.com/ua/Documents/Presentations/GFK_report_FreeCrimea.pdffound similar results. When Crimeans were asked “do you endorse Russia’s annexation of Crimea,” 93 percent gave a positive response, with 82 percent saying, “yes, definitely.” Only 2 percent said no, with the remainder unsure or not answering.

In other words, the West’s insistence that Russia must return Crimea to Ukraine would mean violating the age-old U.S. principle of a people’s right of self-determination. It would force the largely ethnic Russian population of Crimea to submit to a Ukrainian government that many Crimeans view as illegitimate, the result of a violent U.S.-backed coup on Feb. 22, 2014, that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych.

The coup touched off a brutal civil war in which the right-wing regime in Kiev dispatched neo-Nazi and other extremist militias to spearhead a fierce “anti-terrorism operation” against resistance from the ethnic Russian population in the east, which – like Crimea – had supported Yanukovych. More than 6,000 Ukrainians, most of them ethnic Russians, have been killed in the fighting.

Despite this reality, the mainstream U.S. news media has misreported the crisis and distorted the facts to conform to U.S. State Department propaganda. Thus, many Americans believe the false narrative about Russian troops crushing the popular will of the Crimean people, much as the U.S. public was misled about the Iraq situation in 2002-03 by many of the same news outlets.

Or, as Forbes’ Rapoza put it: “At some point, the West will have to recognize Crimea’s right to self rule. Unless we are all to believe that the locals polled by Gallup and GfK were done so with FSB bogey men standing by with guns in their hands.” The FSB is a Russian intelligence agency.

The GfK survey also found that Crimeans considered the Ukrainian media, which has been wildly anti-Russian, unreliable. Only 1 percent said the Ukrainian media “provides entirely truthful information” and only 4 percent said it was “more often truthful than deceitful.”

So, the people at the frontline of this conflict, where Assistant Secretary Nuland, detected a “reign of terror,” say they are not only satisfied with being restored to Russia, which controlled Crimea since the 1700s, but don’t trust the distorted version of events that they see on Ukrainian TV.

Practical Reasons

Some of the reasons for the Crimean attitudes are simply pragmatic. Russian pensions were three times larger than what the Ukrainian government paid – and now the Ukrainian pensions are being slashed further in compliance with austerity demands from the International Monetary Fund.

This month, Nuland boasted about those pension cuts in praising the Kiev regime’s steps toward becoming a “free-market state.” She also hailed “reforms” that will force Ukrainians to work harder and into old age and that slashed gas subsidies which helped the poor pay their heating bills.

Last year, the New York Times and other U.S. news outlets also tossed around the word “invasion” quite promiscuously in discussing Crimea. But you may recall that you saw no images of Russian tanks crashing into the Crimean peninsula or an amphibious landing or paratroops descending from the skies. The reason was simple: Russian troops were already in Crimea.

The Russians had a lease agreement with Ukraine permitting up to 25,000 military personnel in Crimea to protect the Russian naval base at Sevastopol. About 16,000 Russian troops were on the ground when the Feb. 22, 2014 putsch occurred in Kiev – and after a crisis meeting at the Kremlin, they were dispatched to prevent the coup regime from imposing its control on Crimea’s people.

That Russian intervention set the stage for the March 16 referendum in which the voters of Crimea turned out in large numbers and voted overwhelmingly for secession from Ukraine and reintegration with Russia, a move that the Russian parliament and President Putin then approved.

Yet, as another part of its false reporting, the New York Times claimed that Putin denied that Russian troops had operated inside Crimea – when, in fact, he was quite open about it. For instance, on March 4, 2014, almost two weeks before the referendum, Putin discussed at a Moscow press conference the role of Russian troops in preventing the violence from spreading from Kiev to Crimea. Putin said:

“You should note that, thank God, not a single gunshot has been fired there. … Thus the tension in Crimea that was linked to the possibility of using our Armed Forces simply died down and there was no need to use them. The only thing we had to do, and we did it, was to enhance the defense of our military facilities because they were constantly receiving threats and we were aware of the armed nationalists moving in. We did this, it was the right thing to do and very timely.”

Two days after the referendum, which recorded the 96 percent vote in favor of seceding from Ukraine and rejoining Russia, Putin returned to the issue of Russian involvement in Crimea. In a formal speechto the Russian Federation, Putin justified Crimea’s desire to escape the grasp of the coup regime in Kiev, saying:

“Those who opposed the [Feb. 22] coup were immediately threatened with repression. Naturally, the first in line here was Crimea, the Russian-speaking Crimea. In view of this, the residents of Crimea and Sevastopol turned to Russia for help in defending their rights and lives, in preventing the events that were unfolding and are still underway in Kiev, Donetsk, Kharkov and other Ukrainian cities.

“Naturally, we could not leave this plea unheeded; we could not abandon Crimea and its residents in distress. This would have been betrayal on our part.”

But to make it appear that Putin was denying a military intervention, the Times and other U.S. news outlets truncated Putin’s statement when he said, “Russia’s Armed Forces never entered Crimea.” The Western press stopped there, ignoring what he said next: “they were there already in line with an international agreement.”

Putin’s point was that Russian troops based in Crimea took actions that diffused a possibly violent situation and gave the people of Crimea a chance to express their wishes through the ballot. But that version of events didn’t fit with the desired narrative pushed by the U.S. State Department and the New York Times. So the problem was solved by misrepresenting what Putin said.

But the larger issue now is whether the Obama administration and the European Union will insist on forcing the Crimean people – against their will – to rejoin Ukraine, a country that is rapidly sliding into the status of a failed state and a remarkably cruel one at that.
 
The american left calls the election of Crimean and Cubans shams.

But the election of Joe Biden was " the fairest and most secure election in history"

Funny
 
Lol what? This thread is 7 years old man.

No election recently is anywhere near "the most secure in history". There has been massive misinformation campaigns from other countries and opposing parties.

But just learn to live and deal with the fact that Trumk lost fair and square--despite trying very hard to cheat his way into winning.

As much as I despise Biden and think he's a total idiot, puppt, and not a very good person, I am really REALLY fucking glad he is president right now rather than trump during this Russian invasion of Ukraine. Just looking at things objectively, the last thing we need isba personality like trump in office while we are inching closer to a possible world War 3. I simply can't imagine any scenario where trump would do a better job than Biden at deescalating conflict and dealing with Russia's war crimes in a diplomatic manner, while simultaneously strengthening the bond and trust of all our allies in NATO. Hell...if trump was president we might already be in the nuclear apocalypse!! Lol... Fuck that shit! I don't want to be nuked.
 
Lol what? This thread is 7 years old man.

No election recently is anywhere near "the most secure in history". There has been massive misinformation campaigns from other countries and opposing parties.

But just learn to live and deal with the fact that Trumk lost fair and square--despite trying very hard to cheat his way into winning.

As much as I despise Biden and think he's a total idiot, puppt, and not a very good person, I am really REALLY fucking glad he is president right now rather than trump during this Russian invasion of Ukraine. Just looking at things objectively, the last thing we need isba personality like trump in office while we are inching closer to a possible world War 3. I simply can't imagine any scenario where trump would do a better job than Biden at deescalating conflict and dealing with Russia's war crimes in a diplomatic manner, while simultaneously strengthening the bond and trust of all our allies in NATO. Hell...if trump was president we might already be in the nuclear apocalypse!! Lol... Fuck that shit! I don't want to be nuked.


If Trump was president, none of this would be happening.

See the past four years for reference, and go ahead and start howling with your lame ass excuses.
 
If Trump was president, none of this would be happening.

See the past four years for reference, and go ahead and start howling with your lame ass excuses.
Lmao what? If trump was president then Russia wouldn't gave attacked Ukraine? Something they've been spending years preparing for? Please do go on as to exactly why you assert this as fact. I would love to see some evidence...or at minimum some logic to this claim!
 
Lmao what? If trump was president then Russia wouldn't gave attacked Ukraine? Something they've been spending years preparing for? Please do go on as to exactly why you assert this as fact. I would love to see some evidence...or at minimum some logic to this claim!

Minimum logic?

The Russian leader launched offenses against bordering countries in 2008, 2014, and 2022, . But nothing from 2016-2020. That's twice on Obama/Biden , literally annexing part of Ukrain under Obama and attacking once so far on Biden/Obama but skipped Trump

It doesn't get more logical than that.

Now, cue your bullshit excuses...
 
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Minimum logic?

The Russian leader launched offenses against bordering countries in 2008, 2014, and 2022, . But nothing from 2016-2020. That's twice on Obama/Biden , literally annexing part of Ukrain under Obama and attacking once so far on Biden/Obama but skipped Trump

It doesn't get more logical than that.

Now, cue your bullshit excuses...
Lol wow, yeah there is simply no possible way to refute that logic absolutely proving that if trump was president now there would be no war in Ukraine at all and Russia would be sitting quietly in its corner. I bow down to your superior intellect that is so far beyond mine.

Yet, one does wonder...you offer no reasons as to why this is as it is...you simply state a correlation (a pretty weak correlation, at that) as though it is check mate.

However...one key issue with your logic is that you are flat out wrong about one thing. Bush was president in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia. The elcetion was in 2008, but Obama didn't take office until January 20, 2009.

So Russian offenses took place once during Bush, once during Obama, then most recently in 2022 during Biden.

Let's not forget that during the Trumo years Russia spend the entire time directly arming and aiding rebels within Ukraine. The separatists weren't just Ukrainian revels either, it is estimated that almost 10,000 personnel were active duty Russian military.

Also, Russia began issuing more than 650,000 passports in 2019 (when Trumo was prez), to say that the separatists in rebel-held parts of Ukraine were actually Russian citizens. This would give Russia an excuse to invade Ukraine in an effort to "come to the aid" of its "citizens".

Look. The situation in Donetsk and Luhansk is highly complex. Regardless of that, Russia has obviously been preparing for an invasion and war for some time. They've been attempting to bolster their economy against sanctions for years now. Putin is a strategic thinker. He has been preparing for this for a long time. If trump won, it's not like putin wouldve said "Oh darn, I guess I gotta wait a few more years." Lmao

So just cut the delusion that trump is the savior of the world. He's not. He is just as bad as Biden, each of them are worse than the other in their own ways. That's all. Hopefully you can read my "bullshit arguments" with an open mind...
 
Lol wow, yeah there is simply no possible way to refute that logic absolutely proving that if trump was president now there would be no war in Ukraine at all and Russia would be sitting quietly in its corner. I bow down to your superior intellect that is so far beyond mine.

Yet, one does wonder...you offer no reasons as to why this is as it is...you simply state a correlation (a pretty weak correlation, at that) as though it is check mate.

However...one key issue with your logic is that you are flat out wrong about one thing. Bush was president in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia. The elcetion was in 2008, but Obama didn't take office until January 20, 2009.

So Russian offenses took place once during Bush, once during Obama, then most recently in 2022 during Biden.

Let's not forget that during the Trumo years Russia spend the entire time directly arming and aiding rebels within Ukraine. The separatists weren't just Ukrainian revels either, it is estimated that almost 10,000 personnel were active duty Russian military.

Also, Russia began issuing more than 650,000 passports in 2019 (when Trumo was prez), to say that the separatists in rebel-held parts of Ukraine were actually Russian citizens. This would give Russia an excuse to invade Ukraine in an effort to "come to the aid" of its "citizens".

Look. The situation in Donetsk and Luhansk is highly complex. Regardless of that, Russia has obviously been preparing for an invasion and war for some time. They've been attempting to bolster their economy against sanctions for years now. Putin is a strategic thinker. He has been preparing for this for a long time. If trump won, it's not like putin wouldve said "Oh darn, I guess I gotta wait a few more years." Lmao

So just cut the delusion that trump is the savior of the world. He's not. He is just as bad as Biden, each of them are worse than the other in their own ways. That's all. Hopefully you can read my "bullshit arguments" with an open mind...

If correlation isn't logical, i.e. cause and effect in practical demonstrable observation, Then you are completely beyond any sort of logic, and should refrain from asking for it.

Keep to drooling over CNN bullshit taking points, and refrain from asking for logic. Because, clearly you're not confined to logical reason.

You asked for logic, you got it.
You replied with horseshit talking points.

Russia invaded Ukrain, when they knew they could get away with it. Period.

Cause, and, effects.

It's not complicated. Turn off CNN, and think logically
 
If correlation isn't logical, i.e. cause and effect in practical demonstrable observation, Then you are completely beyond any sort of logic, and should refrain from asking for it.

Keep to drooling over CNN bullshit taking points, and refrain from asking for logic. Because, clearly you're not confined to logical reason.

You asked for logic, you got it.
You replied with horseshit talking points.

Russia invaded Ukrain, when they knew they could get away with it. Period.

Cause, and, effects.

It's not complicated. Turn off CNN, and think logically
I really wish you could have a productive conversation about this rather than spewing weak insults and oversimplifying a complex geopolitical situation that has been slowly boiling up for almost a decade.

I would assert that the the fact that you say all my points are pure horseshit just goes to show you either didn't read them or you have zero critical thinking skills and are simply basically on auto-reply at this point, not putting much thought into your posts but rather having your main goal be to just "antagonize the liberal" (which, by the way, I'm not a fucking liberal).

Did it ever occur to you that there's more to the timing of this situation than just "they waited until they knew they could get away with it"? That is ridiculous. You say "it's not complicated." I would argue that geopolitics, especially in the east and middle-east, are actually very complicated. I highly doubt you have a solid understanding of past events and current tensions that have driven things to the level they are at. Your logic is pretty much the logic of a 5 year old. "This happened,. then this happened, and nothing happened during this time, so obviously this is the ENTIRE reason why we are where we are. There are simply NO outside confounding factors at all and this is an extremely simple situation caused by ONE SINGLE THING. I'm sorry, but that is just bullshit wishful thinking.



Oh and by the way, I don't watch CNN. I actually despise them and think and should be shut down along with several other far left "news" sources--as should the far right sources such as Breitbart and Fox News, etc.... These organizations don't actually provide news. They provide extremely curated, highly biased "feeds" for people to hear exactly what they want to hear so they can keep their viewers hypnotized by convincing them they are all geniuses and they're right about pretty much everything,


I don't have any respect for any mainstream news nor do I care to expose myself to the insanity of the extremist news on either the left or the right. They are either corporate owned bullshit-pushers, or they're semi-independent organizations that are simply run by people who are slightly unhinged and have no business "informing" the public of current situations. In the end, rather than inform people and give them knowledge, they simply further the divide between the left from the right based off of idiotic, made up issues.

Where do you get YOUR news from? I personally look at a wide range of sources. NPR, BBC, Reuters, and The Hill. All of which are measured by various organizations to provide a pretty centrist view of things. Every once in a while I will look at a source that leans left or right. I like to know what the extremists on both sides are being fed (I choose the term "being fed" very deliberately, because that IS exactly what is happening).

You seem to want to be arguing with a liberal snowflake. I am not that. I do not align with either "side" and I am completely unrepresented by anyone in our current government. That's why I moved out to the country to just disengage and live mostly off the grid.

To me it seems like you are just parroting Fox News talking points from Fucker Carlson, thinking they are the most ingenious things ever to be said.

All I can say is, it's important to expose yourself to both sides of the table. Don't oversimplify complex issues. I am all for constructive conversation. Unfortunately, you are not providing ANY counterarguments. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again.

Anyway, unless you can open up your mind and have a real conversation, rather than just (probably not even read my posts and) calling bullshit on everything I write, I think this conversation is over.

Besides, Trump lost fair and square, so in the end, we'll never know the answer to this question anyway. Peace out man. I wish the best to you and your family.



1647087624509.png
 
I really wish you could have a productive conversation about this rather than spewing weak insults and oversimplifying a complex geopolitical situation that has been slowly boiling up for almost a decade.

I would assert that the the fact that you say all my points are pure horseshit just goes to show you either didn't read them or you have zero critical thinking skills and are simply basically on auto-reply at this point, not putting much thought into your posts but rather having your main goal be to just "antagonize the liberal" (which, by the way, I'm not a fucking liberal).

Did it ever occur to you that there's more to the timing of this situation than just "they waited until they knew they could get away with it"? That is ridiculous. You say "it's not complicated." I would argue that geopolitics, especially in the east and middle-east, are actually very complicated. I highly doubt you have a solid understanding of past events and current tensions that have driven things to the level they are at. Your logic is pretty much the logic of a 5 year old. "This happened,. then this happened, and nothing happened during this time, so obviously this is the ENTIRE reason why we are where we are. There are simply NO outside confounding factors at all and this is an extremely simple situation caused by ONE SINGLE THING. I'm sorry, but that is just bullshit wishful thinking.



Oh and by the way, I don't watch CNN. I actually despise them and think and should be shut down along with several other far left "news" sources--as should the far right sources such as Breitbart and Fox News, etc.... These organizations don't actually provide news. They provide extremely curated, highly biased "feeds" for people to hear exactly what they want to hear so they can keep their viewers hypnotized by convincing them they are all geniuses and they're right about pretty much everything,


I don't have any respect for any mainstream news nor do I care to expose myself to the insanity of the extremist news on either the left or the right. They are either corporate owned bullshit-pushers, or they're semi-independent organizations that are simply run by people who are slightly unhinged and have no business "informing" the public of current situations. In the end, rather than inform people and give them knowledge, they simply further the divide between the left from the right based off of idiotic, made up issues.

Where do you get YOUR news from? I personally look at a wide range of sources. NPR, BBC, Reuters, and The Hill. All of which are measured by various organizations to provide a pretty centrist view of things. Every once in a while I will look at a source that leans left or right. I like to know what the extremists on both sides are being fed (I choose the term "being fed" very deliberately, because that IS exactly what is happening).

You seem to want to be arguing with a liberal snowflake. I am not that. I do not align with either "side" and I am completely unrepresented by anyone in our current government. That's why I moved out to the country to just disengage and live mostly off the grid.

To me it seems like you are just parroting Fox News talking points from Fucker Carlson, thinking they are the most ingenious things ever to be said.

All I can say is, it's important to expose yourself to both sides of the table. Don't oversimplify complex issues. I am all for constructive conversation. Unfortunately, you are not providing ANY counterarguments. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again.

Anyway, unless you can open up your mind and have a real conversation, rather than just (probably not even read my posts and) calling bullshit on everything I write, I think this conversation is over.

Besides, Trump lost fair and square, so in the end, we'll never know the answer to this question anyway. Peace out man. I wish the best to you and your family.



View attachment 161620


In other words, you have no logical point to refute, so you parrot of bunch of bullshit leftist talking points.

Putin invaded Ukraine when he knew he could get away with it. And he obviously waited to do so on joe Biden's watch. And thats it. That's the observable reality everyone can see with their own eyes. Your horseshit dnc propaganda talking points are meaningless in the face of observable facts.

I'm sure putin understands the geopolitical situation and implications of joe bidens or Donald Trumps threats better than you do. And chose his time and actions accordingly

And if you really want objective news, turn off the dnc propaganda
View: https://youtu.be/DyCpI9tKY0g
 
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Let's not forget that during the Trumo years Russia spend the entire time directly arming and aiding rebels within Ukraine. The separatists weren't just Ukrainian revels either, it is estimated that almost 10,000 personnel were active duty Russian military.

Also, Russia began issuing more than 650,000 passports in 2019 (when Trumo was prez), to say that the separatists in rebel-held parts of Ukraine were actually Russian citizens. This would give Russia an excuse to invade Ukraine in an effort to "come to the aid" of its "citizens".

Look. The situation in Donetsk and Luhansk is highly complex. Regardless of that, Russia has obviously been preparing for an invasion and war for some time. They've been attempting to bolster their economy against sanctions for years now. Putin is a strategic thinker. He has been preparing for this for a long time. If trump won, it's not like putin wouldve said "Oh darn, I guess I gotta wait a few more years." Lmao
I have no clue why nobody seems to know this was happening. It was openly reported.
 
In other words, you have no logical point to refute, so you parrot of bunch of bullshit leftist talking points.
What are thell are you even talking about? You keep saying this, but it is out of context. I don't see how anything I am saying is eveb close to parroting back leftist talking points lmao
Putin invaded Ukraine when he knew he could get away with it. And he obviously waited to do so on joe Biden's watch. And thats it. That's the observable reality everyone can see with their own eyes. Your horseshit dnc propaganda talking points are meaningless in the face of observable facts.

I'm sure putin understands the geopolitical situation and implications of joe bidens or Donald Trumps threats better than you do. And chose his time and actions accordingly

And if you really want objective news, turn off the dnc propaganda
View: https://youtu.be/DyCpI9tKY0g
Do you even read my posts? I don't watch DNC propaganda. Jesus fucking christ man this is practically a 1 way conversation.

Did you consider that it might have been even worse with trump as president? Trump has historically been very soft on Russia. This is very easy to prove via a simple Google search. Additionally, Trump has repeatedly praised Putin over the years...

Not that this is surprising...Trump has a history of being very soft and easy of Russia despite the horrible things they've done. Probably because he owes some of the Russian Oligarchs a few hundred million dollars. Plus he has close ties to Russia, Putin, and the Oligarchy which are well proven and easily drawn out. You can take a look at them here.

When Putin invaded Ukraine, Trump was basically a ficking cheerleader for putin at that time. First he congratulated Putin, saying how brilliant and savvy Putin was for his invasion of Ukraine.

Then he backed it up because everyone, even his own party, was like, "Wtf you idiot, Russia is our enemy and Putin is evil and the last thing we want is a fucking all out war in Europe."

So he softened his stance a little.
Still though, during his RNC speech he was "joking" about how fun it would be to start a war between China and Russia by bombing Russia in a false flag operation pretending to be China, then "watch" the chaos as the two countries killed each other.

This is just further proof that Trump really is as stupid as he seems. He's like an idiot 16 year old, no wonder he mever attended intelligence briefings, they were too far over his head for him to even understand! And I dont see how it would be "fun" for 2 nuclear superpowers to fight in an all out war, shaking the global economy even further to its core, collapsing the global market and essentially putting a stop to society as we know it...not to mention the massive loss of life and possible World War 3 we continue to inch towards just due to the Ukraine conflict alone.

None of this is left vs right politics. It am stating facts. The only bit of opinion I will throw in here is this:

IMHO I think Trump would actually LOVE to turn the US into an Oligarchy and have himself at the top as the US version of Putin. He is a wannabe Dictator, you can tell by his policies, the way he talks, the things he does. Trump would gladly throw the republic/"democracy" of the Unites States away in order to to be the Supreme Leader of the USA.
 
I really wish you could have a productive conversation about this rather than spewing weak insults and oversimplifying a complex geopolitical situation that has been slowly boiling up for almost a decade.

I would assert that the the fact that you say all my points are pure horseshit just goes to show you either didn't read them or you have zero critical thinking skills and are simply basically on auto-reply at this point, not putting much thought into your posts but rather having your main goal be to just "antagonize the liberal" (which, by the way, I'm not a fucking liberal).

Did it ever occur to you that there's more to the timing of this situation than just "they waited until they knew they could get away with it"? That is ridiculous. You say "it's not complicated." I would argue that geopolitics, especially in the east and middle-east, are actually very complicated. I highly doubt you have a solid understanding of past events and current tensions that have driven things to the level they are at. Your logic is pretty much the logic of a 5 year old. "This happened,. then this happened, and nothing happened during this time, so obviously this is the ENTIRE reason why we are where we are. There are simply NO outside confounding factors at all and this is an extremely simple situation caused by ONE SINGLE THING. I'm sorry, but that is just bullshit wishful thinking.



Oh and by the way, I don't watch CNN. I actually despise them and think and should be shut down along with several other far left "news" sources--as should the far right sources such as Breitbart and Fox News, etc.... These organizations don't actually provide news. They provide extremely curated, highly biased "feeds" for people to hear exactly what they want to hear so they can keep their viewers hypnotized by convincing them they are all geniuses and they're right about pretty much everything,


I don't have any respect for any mainstream news nor do I care to expose myself to the insanity of the extremist news on either the left or the right. They are either corporate owned bullshit-pushers, or they're semi-independent organizations that are simply run by people who are slightly unhinged and have no business "informing" the public of current situations. In the end, rather than inform people and give them knowledge, they simply further the divide between the left from the right based off of idiotic, made up issues.

Where do you get YOUR news from? I personally look at a wide range of sources. NPR, BBC, Reuters, and The Hill. All of which are measured by various organizations to provide a pretty centrist view of things. Every once in a while I will look at a source that leans left or right. I like to know what the extremists on both sides are being fed (I choose the term "being fed" very deliberately, because that IS exactly what is happening).

You seem to want to be arguing with a liberal snowflake. I am not that. I do not align with either "side" and I am completely unrepresented by anyone in our current government. That's why I moved out to the country to just disengage and live mostly off the grid.

To me it seems like you are just parroting Fox News talking points from Fucker Carlson, thinking they are the most ingenious things ever to be said.

All I can say is, it's important to expose yourself to both sides of the table. Don't oversimplify complex issues. I am all for constructive conversation. Unfortunately, you are not providing ANY counterarguments. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again.

Anyway, unless you can open up your mind and have a real conversation, rather than just (probably not even read my posts and) calling bullshit on everything I write, I think this conversation is over.

Besides, Trump lost fair and square, so in the end, we'll never know the answer to this question anyway. Peace out man. I wish the best to you and your family.



View attachment 161620

Why are all the news stations in this country in the pocket of a political party?

Is it a funding thing?
 
What are thell are you even talking about? You keep saying this, but it is out of context. I don't see how anything I am saying is eveb close to parroting back leftist talking points lmao

Do you even read my posts? I don't watch DNC propaganda. Jesus fucking christ man this is practically a 1 way conversation.

Did you consider that it might have been even worse with trump as president? Trump has historically been very soft on Russia. This is very easy to prove via a simple Google search. Additionally, Trump has repeatedly praised Putin over the years...

Not that this is surprising...Trump has a history of being very soft and easy of Russia despite the horrible things they've done. Probably because he owes some of the Russian Oligarchs a few hundred million dollars. Plus he has close ties to Russia, Putin, and the Oligarchy which are well proven and easily drawn out. You can take a look at them here.

When Putin invaded Ukraine, Trump was basically a ficking cheerleader for putin at that time. First he congratulated Putin, saying how brilliant and savvy Putin was for his invasion of Ukraine.

Then he backed it up because everyone, even his own party, was like, "Wtf you idiot, Russia is our enemy and Putin is evil and the last thing we want is a fucking all out war in Europe."

So he softened his stance a little.
Still though, during his RNC speech he was "joking" about how fun it would be to start a war between China and Russia by bombing Russia in a false flag operation pretending to be China, then "watch" the chaos as the two countries killed each other.

This is just further proof that Trump really is as stupid as he seems. He's like an idiot 16 year old, no wonder he mever attended intelligence briefings, they were too far over his head for him to even understand! And I dont see how it would be "fun" for 2 nuclear superpowers to fight in an all out war, shaking the global economy even further to its core, collapsing the global market and essentially putting a stop to society as we know it...not to mention the massive loss of life and possible World War 3 we continue to inch towards just due to the Ukraine conflict alone.

None of this is left vs right politics. It am stating facts. The only bit of opinion I will throw in here is this:

IMHO I think Trump would actually LOVE to turn the US into an Oligarchy and have himself at the top as the US version of Putin. He is a wannabe Dictator, you can tell by his policies, the way he talks, the things he does. Trump would gladly throw the republic/"democracy" of the Unites States away in order to to be the Supreme Leader of the USA.


"Orange man bad" bullshit. That's it?

What the fuck are you rambling about?

Joe biden has allowed Russia to invade Ukraine. Period. Joe biden armed the taliban and encouraged putin. Joe biden did this.

Not Donald Trump.

You're spewing meaningless bullshit.

"Trump was soft on Russia" bush and Obama/biden let him take Crimea and donetsk. Joe biden gave him the nordstream pipeline and let him sell oil in Europe. Joe biden has allowed him to invade Ukraine and stabbed the Ukrainian people in the back after him and his son fleeced those poor desperate people for millions and Obama promised to protect them, not Donald Trump.

Stop the lies and bullshit. Nobody buys it. Joe biden put this Ukrainian regime in charge with Obama, andnow has turned his back on them, throwing them to the Russian dogs. Joe biden did this. Not Donald Trump

All you spew is dnc propaganda. Everything you say is on cnn bullshit every day. Nobody buys the bullshit

Joe biden is the president, he has allowed this. And all you can howl about is Donald Trump.

No more of your bullshit

Stop the lies and horseshit.
 
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I have no clue why nobody seems to know this was happening. It was openly reported.

George Bush and Barack Obama/Joe Biden allowed Russia to annex Crimea and recognize donetsk.

So Donald Trump let Russia issue passports? And you dumb asses are claiming what? It all the fault of the "bad orange man"

How fucking stupid can you get? Really
 
Why are all the news stations in this country in the pocket of a political party?

Is it a funding thing?
Theres a variety of reasons, but yet it is very much a funding thing along with a political power thing. For the more mainstream news and the TV news channels:

News stations and companies are, first and foremost, businesses.

The businesses often target a specific audience, and they tell that audience what they want to hear. Social media suggestion algorithms like on YouTube have slowly made these opinions more extreme over the years, so the news outlets have followed along just to keep up with their viewers. Fox News is a great example of this as well as CNN.

Then you have the fact thay generally large swathes of local news and different news outlets are all owned by big conglomerates. These conglomerates are big businesses that are mostly led by billionaires (usually old white guys who are well-connected in the political realm). These leaders want to use their power in the media to push their views to the country. The Koch Brothers are a great example as is George Soros This then helps their buddies get elected or persuades the public to support bills they want passed.

Then often times these billionaires will simply donate a fuck ton of money to various news organizations, who, in return, continue to post stories that align with what the donor wants.

Lastly, you have the extremist left and right news outlets, these seem to be mostly started by a single person or group of people who feel like the mews doesn't represent them. They mostly spew out non-factual information (or stuff that is very loosely based on facts) in am effort to get people on their side. Whether left or right, they just want to gain viewership and generally target people who are prone to believing in conspiracy theories (no matter how far fetched) and usually the leaders of the organizations are rather unhinged themselves.

There have been a lot of studies and efforts to "rate" hos biased or factual different sources are. You can learn more here

As I said before. I almost always get my information from the centrist sources. Sometimes I venture over to the left and right just to see what they're saying, because I feel it is important. In the end though, I draw my own conclusions.

I dont read and article and take it as fact. That is one of the biggest issues nowadays: critical thinking has dies and nobody thinks for themselves anymore :(

i am definitely oversimplifying and l leaving out some important info.

I recommend first getting your informationb from Reuters, Alternative Press, BBC, NPR. Those are all organizations that really just report what is happening. Then once you know what is happening or the sequence if important events, This emables you to make your own decision about what you believe. THEN you can change your opinion as new information comes forth.

Unfortunately, places like Fox News, MSNBC, Breitbart, Mother Jones, etc., are master manipulators and they'll often perform segments without actually providing any real information, but rather just spinning stories in a super biased way. Then you end up with a large portion of the population just totally ignorant because they never learned how to vet sources of information :( then those people (whether far left or right) vote and generally end up making the country a worse and more divided place.

I think thay mostly sums it up
 
"Orange man bad" bullshit. That's it?

What the fuck are you rambling about?

Joe biden has allowed Russia to invade Ukraine. Period. Joe biden armed the taliban and encouraged putin. Joe biden did this.

Not Donald Trump.

You're spewing meaningless bullshit.

"Trump was soft on Russia" bush and Obama/biden let him take Crimea and donetsk. Joe biden gave him the nordstream pipeline and let him sell oil in Europe. Joe biden has allowed him to invade Ukraine and stabbed the Ukrainian people in the back after him and his son fleeced those poor desperate people for millions and Obama promised to protect them, not Donald Trump.

Stop the lies and bullshit. Nobody buys it. Joe biden put this Ukrainian regime in charge with Obama, andnow has turned his back on them, throwing them to the Russian dogs. Joe biden did this. Not Donald Trump

All you spew is dnc propaganda. Everything you say is on cnn bullshit every day. Nobody buys the bullshit

Joe biden is the president, he has allowed this. And all you can howl about is Donald Trump.

No more of your bullshit

Stop the lies and horseshit.
Alright I'm done with this. You are not worth debating with because you obviously never learned the meaning of debate. I simply can't believe how ignorant you are and how unwilling you are you even to read and consider what I write. Thankfully other people on the forum will. Again, I wrote out a well considered and well organized group of pond about this situation and you dumb it down to "Orange man bad". Idk if that is all your brain can handle or what, but youe posrs are pathetic and I am done wasting my time. Good luck to you in life. It seems like you will need it.
 
George Bush and Barack Obama/Joe Biden allowed Russia to annex Crimea and recognize donetsk.

So Donald Trump let Russia issue passports? And you dumb asses are claiming what? It all the fault of the "bad orange man"

How fucking stupid can you get? Really
How dumb can YOU get?! The US government has absolutely NOTHING to do with Russia granting passports to whomever they want. What are you talking about lmao, this is totally incoherent and ignorant.
 
Alright I'm done with this. You are not worth debating with because you obviously never learned the meaning of debate. I simply can't believe how ignorant you are and how unwilling you are you even to read and consider what I write. Thankfully other people on the forum will. Again, I wrote out a well considered and well organized group of pond about this situation and you dumb it down to "Orange man bad". Idk if that is all your brain can handle or what, but youe posrs are pathetic and I am done wasting my time. Good luck to you in life. It seems like you will need it.


"Orange man bad" was all you said.

I told you this invasion likely never would have happened under trump, and showed why.

You filled up a book with bullshit saying nothing except "orange man bad".

But Ukraine is burning now. And joe biden has allowed it. Joe biden fleeced their money and abandoned them, Joe biden betrayed he and Obamas promises.

Not Donald Trump.

Your long-winded rants about the "orange menace" are not only irrelevant, but ridiculously stupid.

Because it's Joe biden that allows this. Not Donald Trump
 
How dumb can YOU get?! The US government has absolutely NOTHING to do with Russia granting passports to whomever they want. What are you talking about lmao, this is totally incoherent and ignorant.

Since the US has nothing to do with Russia issuing passports, why are you and that other idiot blaming Donald Trump for Russia issuing passports to people in Crimea and donetsk?

You just refuted your own stupidity.

"Also, Russia began issuing more than 650,000 passports in 2019 (when Trumo was prez), to say that the separatists in rebel-held parts of Ukraine were actually Russian citizens." Your words.

"How dumb can YOU get?! The US government has absolutely NOTHING to do with Russia granting passports to whomever they want. What are you talking about lmao, this is totally incoherent and ignorant." Also your words.

So in other words, the bad orange man is to blame for Ukraine because Russia issues passports that you say he had no control over

You sir, are a grotesque of inconceivable stupidity.

"Orange man bad" is not a coherent argument. Your lies and bullshit have been called out. Just crawl away.
 
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