When do you see legs grow?

[egruberman]

you can really test your pain threshhold with an exercise like leg press.. you start to feel quite uncomfortable at 20 reps, at 30 you can end the set or push to 40 and endure hell. Its not like bench press where you hit 10 reps and can maybe bang out an extra rep or 2 with a spotter.

I think I once heard Rippetoe say something to the effect of, "If you're a religious person, 20 rep squats is going to save you some time because by rep 16 or so, you're going to be seeing God and maybe you can skip Church that week.

 

[Stealth500]

I think I once heard Rippetoe say something to the effect of, "If you're a religious person, 20 rep squats is going to save you some time because by rep 16 or so, you're going to be seeing God and maybe you can skip Church that week.

time under tension / exponential pain. + gear and proper diet will see some crazy growth. when women started telling me my legs were gross i was proud.

 

[egruberman]

time under tension

…is meaningless. Hypertrophy scales sub-linearly relative to the number of sets performed close to failure up to around 30-40 sets per week. Doesn’t matter how much time it took.

One could do a hell of a lot of training and get a lot of time under tension hit if they’re not lifting close to failure or stiff enough intensity the. Growth will not occur.

 

[Stealth500]

…is meaningless. Hypertrophy scales sub-linearly relative to the number of sets performed close to failure up to around 30-40 sets per week. Doesn’t matter how much time it took.

One could do a hell of a lot of training and get a lot of time under tension hit if they’re not lifting close to failure or stiff enough intensity the. Growth will not occur.

interesting

what are your thoughts on negatives?

 

[egruberman]

what are your thoughts on negatives?

In recent years the science nerds have claimed that eccentrics promote more growth. Recent data suggest otherwise. Accentuating the eccentric doesn't seem to yield much.

The muscle can handle more weight in eccentric than in concentric, which can be useful in some cases, but that's more of an edge case. I've also seen data that suggest eccentrics are more likely to cause DOMS. I really only use eccentrics for heavy pull up exercises, but that's more rock climbing specific.

Anecdotally, I once speed hiked up and down Mt. Diablo, one of the taller peaks in the SF Bay Area. I jogged down, which was all eccentrics and I was crippled after.

I don't mean to be flippant about the time under tension thing, but recent literature on this topic has been pretty overwhelming. They key to growth is more sets close to failure. The rep range is largely irrelevant. Most of the studies focused on the 6-30 rep range, but there's some data that it goes well beyond.

 

[Stealth500]

I've also seen data that suggest eccentrics are more likely to cause DOMS.


I don't mean to be flippant about the time under tension thing, but recent literature on this topic has been pretty overwhelming.

i believe from personal experience about the DOMS yeah.

no worries, I live under a rock and the science is always changing. Literally the first time I've heard this. Always room for improvement from bro science to actual science. over many years I may find something works for me, yet it could be for other reasons and not necessarily tut but rather just training until close to failure.

 

[egruberman]

no worries, I live under a rock and the science is always changing. Literally the first time I've heard this. Always room for improvement from bro science to actual science. over many years I may find something works for me, yet it could be for other reasons and not necessarily tut but rather just training until close to failure.

Recent data is looking pretty good in the sense that much of it is coming from trained populations and many of the study designs are structured sufficiently well to isolate particular mechanisms. Brad Schoenfeld seems to be leading much of this research.

The tl;dr for most of it is that more is better and that sufficient intensity is necessary for optimal gains. The only mitigating factor is that if one is doing 30 sets of legs in a week, they're going to be wrecked and likely unable to do anything else. The trick is to take one's total recovery capacity, which can be trained to a point and prioritize that among the exercises and muscle groups that yield the most stimulus for the desired muscle g
Full ROM works better than partials for certain muscle lengths and shortened ROM in the lengthened position may be superior for certain exercises, in terms of stimulus to fatigue ratio. Cadence was recently shown not to matter too much, anywhere from 2-8s per rep is fine. Further, strict form vs. cheat form seems not to matter much as long as one approaches failure.

Mike Israetel has preached the importance of slow eccentrics for a long time being more hypertrophic and as it turns out, not so much.

I realize this a bunch of nerd shit, but those genetic freaks that go to the gym and go balls out all the time are on to something. With these principles in mind, one really only needs to figure out what they can tolerate. I know I can't do max squats 2-3x a week. Not 5s, nor even 8-10 rep range and fuck a 20 rep squats. In fact, squats suck, but I still do 'em because they are the king of barbell movements, but...

Mitchell Hooper has claimed that a leg press was the key for his leg development. An actual strongman, one of the best, claims a machine exercise is superior to anything else is mind boggling. I'm an old man, but I can do leg press, leg extensions, and hamstring curls at least 2x a week and hit my desired 10+ sets per muscle group pretty readily. When I do, my legs grow like crazy.

Now if I could only get off my ass and work on my calves.

 

[permission to land]

The problem is , very few will push the limit ..people see big legs and immediately think they are strong .. I see it.. it’s volume work getting it done.. blood should be so full when your done.. I don’t mean after your first movement of sets .. keep it going ..

This is why I hired a PT for leg days.

 

[permission to land]

The research suggests that 10-20 sets per week (near enough to failure) is likely ideal for growth.

If your legs are untrained, then you may have no idea what failure feels like. It's also hard to fail on a lot of leg focused exercises. Failing a squat for example can be a bad day. Leg extensions, not so much.

Which specific exercises are used matter less than consistency. Squats generate a lot of fatigue for the stimulus to they supply to the legs, but if you're relatively untrained, do squats. Maybe follow a simple linear progression until you get strong.

In terms of how frequently one can train legs, that kinda depends on the individual, how strong they are and what their recovery capacity is like. If someone is squatting 600lbs for reps, it's going to hard to do that even once per week.

With that in mind my legs grow if I look at 'em sideways. I've had great luck with higher rep sets (15-20) of leg press, leg extensions, and hamstring curls which I can do 2-3x per week even at my advanced age.

I’m going to start doing 14 to 20 instead of 8 to 12 on all movements.

Should I stick to 8 to 10 on squat or go 12 to 15 and lower the weight?

I’m also going to start doing four working sets. This takes my volume up a LOT. I don’t mind putting in into work.

Would it be a good idea to throw in some of Smith machine quad focused squats?

 

[permission to land]

i believe from personal experience about the DOMS yeah.

no worries, I live under a rock and the science is always changing. Literally the first time I've heard this. Always room for improvement from bro science to actual science. over many years I may find something works for me, yet it could be for other reasons and not necessarily tut but rather just training until close to failure.

No matter what I cannot get done on my quads.

The last session I had with my trainer, I literally had to hobble around the gym at the end! My legs were shaking vigourously on the last exercises and I had to take my time going downstairs like an old man

I went home rested eating an incredibly good meal, no stress and had a good eight hours of sleep! Two days later and no doms. I worked hard enough I know I did. I couldn’t have worked any harder and I know that for a fact. But still no doms. I know it doesn’t mean I won’t grow, but it’s frustrating. I just want to feel on leg once. Haha

 

[Stealth500]

Recent data is looking pretty good in the sense that much of it is coming from trained populations and many of the study designs are structured sufficiently well to isolate particular mechanisms. Brad Schoenfeld seems to be leading much of this research.

The tl;dr for most of it is that more is better and that sufficient intensity is necessary for optimal gains. The only mitigating factor is that if one is doing 30 sets of legs in a week, they're going to be wrecked and likely unable to do anything else. The trick is to take one's total recovery capacity, which can be trained to a point and prioritize that among the exercises and muscle groups that yield the most stimulus for the desired muscle g
Full ROM works better than partials for certain muscle lengths and shortened ROM in the lengthened position may be superior for certain exercises, in terms of stimulus to fatigue ratio. Cadence was recently shown not to matter too much, anywhere from 2-8s per rep is fine. Further, strict form vs. cheat form seems not to matter much as long as one approaches failure.

Mike Israetel has preached the importance of slow eccentrics for a long time being more hypertrophic and as it turns out, not so much.

I realize this a bunch of nerd shit, but those genetic freaks that go to the gym and go balls out all the time are on to something. With these principles in mind, one really only needs to figure out what they can tolerate. I know I can't do max squats 2-3x a week. Not 5s, nor even 8-10 rep range and fuck a 20 rep squats. In fact, squats suck, but I still do 'em because they are the king of barbell movements, but...

Mitchell Hooper has claimed that a leg press was the key for his leg development. An actual strongman, one of the best, claims a machine exercise is superior to anything else is mind boggling. I'm an old man, but I can do leg press, leg extensions, and hamstring curls at least 2x a week and hit my desired 10+ sets per muscle group pretty readily. When I do, my legs grow like crazy.

Now if I could only get off my ass and work on my calves.

i love the leg press for quad gains. squats are more exhausting whereas i find i can really torture myself on the leg press.

Later in life i started isolating the legs into different parts and incorporated one part of the legs into the beginning of each workout. Ex. Quads&chest next day glutes, hams & arms, next day calves shoulders & back.. I found training the legs in their entirely to be far too taxing for one day.

 

[Stealth500]

days later and no doms. I worked hard enough I know I did. I couldn’t have worked any harder and I know that for a fact. But still no doms. I know it doesn’t mean I won’t grow, but it’s frustrating. I just want to feel on leg once. Haha

i used to always think doms meant i had a good workout.. but its not necessarily an indication of good training.

 

[permission to land]

So, to summarise

Add more volume, as much as I can without affecting my other days? I always have a rest day after leg which helps. And being on a cycle or be a reasonably small I’m sure I’ll help with recovery and growth.

People are saying it takes six months to a year to see real growth, but my cycle is only 16 weeks and I plan to cut after. So I guess this is gonna be a yo-yo kinda thing. Once I cut down to 10%, I’ll probably do a 200 surplus a day for 6/12 months just on my TRT dose and hopefully add some size overtime.

 

[Stealth500]

So, to summarise

Add more volume, as much as I can without affecting my other days? I always have a rest day after leg which helps. And being on a cycle or be a reasonably small I’m sure I’ll help with recovery and growth.

People are saying it takes six months to a year to see real growth, but my cycle is only 16 weeks and I plan to cut after. So I guess this is gonna be a yo-yo kinda thing. Once I cut down to 10%, I’ll probably do a 200 surplus a day for 6/12 months just on my TRT dose and hopefully add some size overtime.

I won't comment on what drugs you should take or how long you should run them.

push harder.. watch some tom platz videos for motivation..

 

[permission to land]

I won't comment on what drugs you should take or how long you should run them.

push harder.. watch some tom platz videos for motivation..

View attachment 313013

200mg a week Deca he says

 

[egruberman]

Add more volume, as much as I can without affecting my other days? I always have a rest day after leg which helps. And being on a cycle or be a reasonably small I’m sure I’ll help with recovery and growth.

Pick exercises that you can recover from, i.e. those with a good stimulus to fatigue ratio. Take them close to failure, which if you're not experienced will be hard to guess at. Finally, run your cycle out to 20 weeks.

 

[Stealth500]

200mg a week Deca he says

It wouldn't be in your best interest for me to assume what drugs will work best for you. Luckily for you, you have autonomy to research and make well informed decisions.

 

[taco33150]

This is why I hired a PT for leg days.

What is his/her experience? Have you seen the other clients? You having high carbs on leg day?

 

[permission to land]

What is his/her experience? Have you seen the other clients? You having high carbs on leg day?

He’s literally just a PT at the gym. He’s helped me with my form on squats, RDL and Deads, but to be completely frank, he’s just there as a training partner to push the fuck out of me.

 

[permission to land]

It wouldn't be in your best interest for me to assume what drugs will work best for you. Luckily for you, you have autonomy to research and make well informed decisions.

No, I’m just laughing at the fact that Tom Platts claims he only used 200 mg of deca to grow his legs