Why you should NOT take estrogens (Exogenous E2 ≠ Test's aromatic product)

[Test_Subject]

Estrogens are in fact vital to male functioning: estrogens are integral to lipid management, male sexual functioning, bone growth, glucose & lipid metabolism, skeletal muscle function (strength and mass)[1][2].


Men produce estrogens via the process of aromatization (Aromatase enzyme). Testrosterone produces E2 (17β-estradiol; a potent estrogen). These products of Aromatase ("Aromatic products") can be increased by increasing the dose of aromatizing androgen (e.g., Test, Deca, EQ, Dbol, MENT), which serves to maintain a positive androgen/estrogen ratio: a positive androgen/estrogen ratio dictates male sexual functioning and prevents gynecomastia [1].


Conversely, exogenous estrogens (estrogens consumed orally, transdermally, intramuscularly, or via whichever conceivable route of administration) pose great harm to men. Indeed, these hormones should only be used by men committed to transitioning (transwomen).

Exogenous estrogens:
✖ cause male reproductive pathologies [1] - even when exposure is to environmental estrogens, far less potent than E2 and in very low concentrations
✖cause an increase in IGFBP-1, decreasing IGF-I bioavailability [3]
✖cause a dramatic increase in SHBG (reducing T bioavailability) [4]


Aromatic products ✓ (positive effects)
Exogenous estrogens ✖ (negative effects)
______________________________
References:
[1] Cooke PS, Nanjappa MK, Ko C, Prins GS, Hess RA. Estrogens in Male Physiology. Physiol Rev. 2017 Jul 1;97(3): 995-1043. doi:10.1152/physrev.00018.2016.
[2] Chidi-Ogbolu N, Baar K. Effect of Estrogen on Musculoskeletal Performance and Injury Risk. Front Physiol. 2019;9:1834. Published 2019 Jan 15. doi:10.3389/fphys.2018.01834
[3] He, X., & Barkan, A. L. (2020). Growth hormone therapy in adults with growth hormone deficiency: a critical assessment of the literature. Pituitary. doi:10.1007/s11102-020-01031-5
[4] Damewood MD, Bellantoni JJ, Bachorik PS, Kimball AW Jr, Rock JA. Exogenous estrogen effect on lipid/lipoprotein cholesterol in transsexual males. J Endocrinol Invest. 1989 Jul-Aug;12(7):449-54. doi:10.1007/BF03350728.

Not only that, if you want more estrogen on cycle you can just use more of your aromatizing compound(s) in the cycle. Taking straight estrogen on cycle when you can just raise your E2 by using compounds that are also anabolic is silly.

I feel like the whole “exogenous estrogen” trend is one of those retarded Instagram scientist things.

 

[Megadick3000]

Type-2, when you mean exogenous estrogens are you reffering just to bioidentical estrogens taken exogenously or are you referring to anything that modulates estrogen receptor activity?

Beyond bioidentical estrogens theres a long list of estrogenic compounds under the categories of xenoestrogens, phytoestrogens, mycoestrogens, etc.

One of the most widely consumed phytoestrogens in men is found in hops used for brewing beer. Do you have an opinion on beer consumption in men and the detrimental effects of the phytoestrogens they are consuming?

Genistein is another phytoestrogen found in soybeans, while most male bodybuilders probably are not consuming tons of soy vegetarian bodybuilders almost certainly are, do you have opinions on genistein consumption in men?

Phthalates, a common group of plasticizers used to make plastics soft, also have estrogenic activity and are one of if not the most common xenoestrogens men are exposed to, for example your shampoo bottle may contain phthalates that slowly leach into the shampoo and end up absorbing transdermally into the user. Do you have opinions on phthalates as xenoestrogens in men?

 

[Canine]

Type-2, when you mean exogenous estrogens are you reffering just to bioidentical estrogens taken exogenously or are you referring to anything that modulates estrogen receptor activity?

Beyond bioidentical estrogens theres a long list of estrogenic compounds under the categories of xenoestrogens, phytoestrogens, mycoestrogens, etc.

One of the most widely consumed phytoestrogens in men is found in hops used for brewing beer. Do you have an opinion on beer consumption in men and the detrimental effects of the phytoestrogens they are consuming?

Genistein is another phytoestrogen found in soybeans, while most male bodybuilders probably are not consuming tons of soy vegetarian bodybuilders almost certainly are, do you have opinions on genistein consumption in men?

Phthalates, a common group of plasticizers used to make plastics soft, also have estrogenic activity and are one of if not the most common xenoestrogens men are exposed to, for example your shampoo bottle may contain phthalates that slowly leach into the shampoo and end up absorbing transdermally into the user. Do you have opinions on phthalates as xenoestrogens in men?

Basic but decent video on plastics, relatively low level, but informative nevertheless.

 

[Type-IIx]

Type-2, when you mean exogenous estrogens are you reffering just to bioidentical estrogens taken exogenously or are you referring to anything that modulates estrogen receptor activity?

Beyond bioidentical estrogens theres a long list of estrogenic compounds under the categories of xenoestrogens, phytoestrogens, mycoestrogens, etc.

One of the most widely consumed phytoestrogens in men is found in hops used for brewing beer. Do you have an opinion on beer consumption in men and the detrimental effects of the phytoestrogens they are consuming?

Genistein is another phytoestrogen found in soybeans, while most male bodybuilders probably are not consuming tons of soy vegetarian bodybuilders almost certainly are, do you have opinions on genistein consumption in men?

Phthalates, a common group of plasticizers used to make plastics soft, also have estrogenic activity and are one of if not the most common xenoestrogens men are exposed to, for example your shampoo bottle may contain phthalates that slowly leach into the shampoo and end up absorbing transdermally into the user. Do you have opinions on phthalates as xenoestrogens in men?

The environmental estrogens you want to avoid are the DES, synthetic environmental estrogens, PCBs, and a LOT (but not all) of the phytoestrogens like isoflavones. Certainly, I do not believe that all phytoestrogens are bad, genistein may indeed be a beneficial compound. I believe that the distinction lies largely, but not entirely, in potency to activate the ERα. If a phytoestrogen has a modulating influence, it's probably beneficial - or potentially beneficial. Conversely, I believe that ERβ-modulating isoflavones & e.g., phytoecdysteroids are excellent for male health (e.g., ecdysterone). So, this answer contains a lot of nuance.

I do believe that environmental exposure to the sorts of estrogens that can accumulate in tissues (e.g., the phtalates from cosmetic products) cause significant harm over the life-span. I think there is some nexus between these chemicals and the decrease in serum testosterone levels among men across the world (fluoride/fluorination of water supplies; DECREASED tobacco use due to nicotine stimulating dopamine, thereby stimulating T; other factors) contribute as well.

I think the main factor in reduced T (and separately, protein synthesis) from consuming beer is from the alcohol rather than the hops. But it's not something I've investigated or have any real familiarity with.

 

[Jin23]

Estrogens are in fact vital to male functioning: estrogens are integral to lipid management, male sexual functioning, bone growth, glucose & lipid metabolism, skeletal muscle function (strength and mass)[1][2].


Men produce estrogens via the process of aromatization (Aromatase enzyme). Testrosterone produces E2 (17β-estradiol; a potent estrogen). These products of Aromatase ("Aromatic products") can be increased by increasing the dose of aromatizing androgen (e.g., Test, Deca, EQ, Dbol, MENT), which serves to maintain a positive androgen/estrogen ratio: a positive androgen/estrogen ratio dictates male sexual functioning and prevents gynecomastia [1].


Conversely, exogenous estrogens (estrogens consumed orally, transdermally, intramuscularly, or via whichever conceivable route of administration) pose great harm to men. Indeed, these hormones should only be used by men committed to transitioning (transwomen).

Exogenous estrogens:
✖ cause male reproductive pathologies [1] - even when exposure is to environmental estrogens, far less potent than E2 and in very low concentrations
✖cause an increase in IGFBP-1, decreasing IGF-I bioavailability [3]
✖cause a dramatic increase in SHBG (reducing T bioavailability) [4]


Aromatic products ✓ (positive effects)
Exogenous estrogens ✖ (negative effects)
______________________________
References:
[1] Cooke PS, Nanjappa MK, Ko C, Prins GS, Hess RA. Estrogens in Male Physiology. Physiol Rev. 2017 Jul 1;97(3): 995-1043. doi:10.1152/physrev.00018.2016.
[2] Chidi-Ogbolu N, Baar K. Effect of Estrogen on Musculoskeletal Performance and Injury Risk. Front Physiol. 2019;9:1834. Published 2019 Jan 15. doi:10.3389/fphys.2018.01834
[3] He, X., & Barkan, A. L. (2020). Growth hormone therapy in adults with growth hormone deficiency: a critical assessment of the literature. Pituitary. doi:10.1007/s11102-020-01031-5
[4] Damewood MD, Bellantoni JJ, Bachorik PS, Kimball AW Jr, Rock JA. Exogenous estrogen effect on lipid/lipoprotein cholesterol in transsexual males. J Endocrinol Invest. 1989 Jul-Aug;12(7):449-54. doi:10.1007/BF03350728.

Not going to read through the whole topic, as it seems OP is overly aggressive and demeaning, the opposite of intelligence, which ironically, he is trying to signal with his overly entropic (complicated) rhetoric's (I'm actually a communicology, humanistic studies major) ... So, in the context of "you reap what you sow", I will reply in the same overly and needlessly aggressive tone, that this supposedly empirically academically educated, better then the rest on this forum, person is communicating:

- don't put oral and transdermal estrogens in the same sentence. They produce vastly different metabolite profiles. Which you most probably know. It makes you look like even a bigger fool then your style of writing already suggests. It doesn't even matter, if this point is not really concerned with your primary line of discourse, it de-evaluates your writing so much, that it can't just be ignored.

- having normal estrogen, via estrogen supplementation, is a heck of a lot better then being on cycle with deficient estrogen; either due to insufficient aromatase expression (which is my case, I need supraphysiological levels of TT to have barely in range e2) or due to whatever other reasons (e2 lowering compounds).

- Is it more healthier to do a 75mg T + 150 primo cycle plus a bit of transdermal e2 or a 300mg T + 150 primo cycle? Think about it for a second. Spoiler alert; a high androgen load is very problematic for the functioning of the whole system. News flash!: steroids are not healthy! I think it's a problem with having low standards. Being on cycle is painfully un healthy, but once you hang out in the aas community for a while, and you also become a user, you lower your standard quite a bit. Considering sacrificing your mental/brain health for some muscle, is all by it self so non sensical, that accepting such altered mental states as normal, precludes one from having "healthy" standards in the first place, and thus making any discussing in this arena a moot point in all by it self. And you my dear anonymous friend, seem to represent the worst of this kind, as you are seemingly educated, which, unfortunately, helps to blind you even more to the reality of the situation.

- who d-fuck, except the op, who has more then 2 brain cells, is saying that elevating SHBG on cycle is a bad thing? The shbg complex is a vital component for a fuck tone of things, including, yes that's correct; anabolism. And low SHBG is a major problem on most cycles, elevating it, is actually a much welcomed effect! Why would anybody state this as a negative is beyond sound rationale.

- I'm not even going to reference the studies cited, as just making a blank statement and then citing the whole study of 29 pages, without referencing specific paragraphs, is ... well ... insulting to say the least and again, is just a signifier of the OP's, defeated by his own ego, delusional mind state. The OP IS ACTUALLY NOTHING BUT A BLANK STATEMENT with some links to studies. Of the people who liked the OP, please, please explain, what exactly is it that you liked in that post? Because there is nothing substantial in it. He said: estrogens are vital for the male body (omfg, congratulations, really, you deserve a medal) and adds reference 1, 2 (omg, that's so professional, look, he made a statement and gave references), then he says man produce estrogen via aromatization (again, you deserve a medal), then he goes for a first blanket statement, that estrogen should be elevated by adding MORE harmful steroids (congratulations, and also, this is such a context depended situation, that you can not, for the love of god, make such a blanket statement), and then he goes on to say exogenous estrogens are harmful but gives 2 poor reasons and only one that has some merit, but is all again very context dependent. And then the bloke is unable to process a simple constructive debate with a forum member, which just reaffirms the stupidity which was already evident in the OP.

It seem that there are a lot of blokes on this forum who aren't really using their heads, and are just smitten by his writing at face value, due to, as already mentioned, rhetoric's. OP, it's really easy looking smart in a crowd of juiced up bro's, isn't it? In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is the king heh? O boy, how smart you must feel.

Please explain the role of androgens on cognition and neurobiology. If you want to be a valuable source to this community, explain how androgens modulate brain chemistry and how one SHOULD shield one self from excess androgen use and keep a healthy brain and a sane personality. I don't make money off of this, I'm a freaking film director, so I'll let your god like empirically educated person, explain the most important thing which is totally overlooked.

@Canine good job at keeping at it in spite of his immature reply's, attacks, and twisted logic. Do not feel dismayed by an overly aggressive juice head, who gets some forum recognition, by using overly entropic rhetoric's in order to fuel his agenda; and believe me, there is an agenda, it's the only thing that makes sense, why else do this (off course giving fuel to a narcissistic personality disorder is a given). I bet for sure that the OP is selling his bs advice for money, ie. "consultations".

Also, OP, thank you for that long paper. It's a good read. It's very unfortunate, that you have such an obvious personality disorder. You should not be using aas.

 

[Type-IIx]

Not going to read through the whole topic, as it seems OP is overly aggressive and demeaning, the opposite of intelligence, which ironically, he is trying to signal with his overly entropic (complicated) rhetoric's (I'm actually a communicology, humanistic studies major) ... So, in the context of "you reap what you sow", I will reply in the same overly and needlessly aggressive tone, that this supposedly empirically academically educated, better then the rest on this forum, person is communicating:

- don't put oral and transdermal estrogens in the same sentence. They produce vastly different metabolite profiles. Which you most probably know. It makes you look like even a bigger fool then your style of writing already suggests. It doesn't even matter, if this point is not really concerned with your primary line of discourse, it de-evaluates your writing so much, that it can't just be ignored.

- having normal estrogen, via estrogen supplementation, is a heck of a lot better then being on cycle with deficient estrogen; either due to insufficient aromatase expression (which is my case, I need supraphysiological levels of TT to have barely in range e2) or due to whatever other reasons (e2 lowering compounds).

- Is it more healthier to do a 75mg T + 150 primo cycle plus a bit of transdermal e2 or a 300mg T + 150 primo cycle? Think about it for a second. Spoiler alert; a high androgen load is very problematic for the functioning of the whole system. News flash!: steroids are not healthy! I think it's a problem with having low standards. Being on cycle is painfully un healthy, but once you hang out in the aas community for a while, and you also become a user, you lower your standard quite a bit. Considering sacrificing your mental/brain health for some muscle, is all by it self so non sensical, that accepting such altered mental states as normal, precludes one from having "healthy" standards in the first place, and thus making any discussing in this arena a moot point in all by it self. And you my dear anonymous friend, seem to represent the worst of this kind, as you are seemingly educated, which, unfortunately, helps to blind you even more to the reality of the situation.

- who d-fuck, except the op, who has more then 2 brain cells, is saying that elevating SHBG on cycle is a bad thing? The shbg complex is a vital component for a fuck tone of things, including, yes that's correct; anabolism. And low SHBG is a major problem on most cycles, elevating it, is actually a much welcomed effect! Why would anybody state this as a negative is beyond sound rationale.

- I'm not even going to reference the studies cited, as just making a blank statement and then citing the whole study of 29 pages, without referencing specific paragraphs, is ... well ... insulting to say the least and again, is just a signifier of the OP's, defeated by his own ego, delusional mind state. The OP IS ACTUALLY NOTHING BUT A BLANK STATEMENT with some links to studies. Of the people who liked the OP, please, please explain, what exactly is it that you liked in that post? Because there is nothing substantial in it. He said: estrogens are vital for the male body (omfg, congratulations, really, you deserve a medal) and adds reference 1, 2 (omg, that's so professional, look, he made a statement and gave references), then he says man produce estrogen via aromatization (again, you deserve a medal), then he goes for a first blanket statement, that estrogen should be elevated by adding MORE harmful steroids (congratulations, and also, this is such a context depended situation, that you can not, for the love of god, make such a blanket statement), and then he goes on to say exogenous estrogens are harmful but gives 2 poor reasons and only one that has some merit, but is all again very context dependent. And then the bloke is unable to process a simple constructive debate with a forum member, which just reaffirms the stupidity which was already evident in the OP.

It seem that there are a lot of blokes on this forum who aren't really using their heads, and are just smitten by his writing at face value, due to, as already mentioned, rhetoric's. OP, it's really easy looking smart in a crowd of juiced up bro's, isn't it? In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is the king heh? O boy, how smart you must feel.

Please explain the role of androgens on cognition and neurobiology. If you want to be a valuable source to this community, explain how androgens modulate brain chemistry and how one SHOULD shield one self from excess androgen use and keep a healthy brain and a sane personality. I don't make money off of this, I'm a freaking film director, so I'll let your god like empirically educated person, explain the most important thing which is totally overlooked.

@Canine good job at keeping at it in spite of his immature reply's, attacks, and twisted logic. Do not feel dismayed by an overly aggressive juice head, who gets some forum recognition, by using overly entropic rhetoric's in order to fuel his agenda; and believe me, there is an agenda, it's the only thing that makes sense, why else do this (off course giving fuel to a narcissistic personality disorder is a given). I bet for sure that the OP is selling his bs advice for money, ie. "consultations".

Also, OP, thank you for that long paper. It's a good read. It's very unfortunate, that you have such an obvious personality disorder. You should not be using aas.

I see "entropic rhetoric" and think you're projecting here. Now I won't deny some aggression atm (Sdrol) but curious where your interview with the GH scientist article is?

To actually address some of this nonsensical bile, I absolutely think 300mg T + 150mg Primo is superior in its safety profile to 75mg T + 150 primo cycle plus exogenous e2 (that's honestly a bitch cycle).

There's a lot of idiotic babbling here frankly. Where's your data on psychological harms of androgens in man? It's all rat studies and non-extrapolable to man.

 

[Anavarlover]

@Type-IIx do you have a book on gh?

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx do you have a book on gh?

Not yet (but very close). I plan to launch a site for it (working on this).

 

[Ridethelightningbarefoot]

Now I know you have sought from the outset to distort & confront, to hell with what these data tell us.

Because you stated,


The second reference shows a clear effect of estrogen in reducing tendon strength: it shows that estrogens decrease stiffness in tendons, thereby reducing strains and pulls (due to laxity) and decreases performance/power/strength.

Here's the kicker: It ALSO shows EXOGENOUS estrogens as oral contraceptives perversely increasing injury risk, muscle damage, & DOMS. And decreasing collagen synthesis.

Ligaments ≠ Tendons. Like Exogenous E2 ≠ Test's aromatic product.

Wait is that a assumption? That the increase of "laxity" is the decrease in strength?

 

[Type-IIx]

Wait is that a assumption? That the increase of "laxity" is the decrease in strength?

Not an assumption. These researchers engineered, here, human tendon & ligament and exposed these sinews to estrogen at high endogenous concentrations. Estrogens in tendon reduce stiffness & therefore performance and reduce the mechanical strength in ligaments. While estrogens are beneficial to muscle strength & mass, they ↓tendon & ligament stiffness and thus ↓performance & ↑ligament rupture.

 

[Anavarlover]

Not an assumption. These researchers engineered, here, human tendon & ligament and exposed these sinews to estrogen at high endogenous concentrations. Estrogens in tendon reduce stiffness & therefore performance and reduce the mechanical strength in ligaments. While estrogens are beneficial to muscle strength & mass, they ↓tendon & ligament stiffness and thus ↓performance & ↑ligament rupture.

So high endogenous e2 makes tendons and ligaments weaker? What would you say is a good estrogen level. Does growth hormone grow/strengthen tendon and ligament therefore increasing preformance?

 

[Canine]

So high endogenous e2 makes tendons and ligaments weaker? What would you say is a good estrogen level. Does growth hormone grow/strengthen tendon and ligament therefore increasing preformance?

If you read common literature reviews on the subject, you'll see that most authors conclusions are that the data on this is contradictory, some data show higher estrogen leads to more injury, some data show low estrogen leads to more injury etc. It's an imensly complex process with a multitude of layers, and we are still trying to figure out what the exact behavior is.

We do know when females are in the part of their ovulatory cycle where estrogen is higher than normal, they are more prone to injury around their knees and acl, but whether this is due to high estrogen itself, is not known, and in fact could be due to rapid fluctuations in estrogen rather than the levels themselves, or the higher levels resulting in a non optimal ratio of estrogen in relation to other hormones. However females knees and ACL's are in a physical sense designed differently than that of a male. Some data also show higher estrogen can increase some type of collagen deposition potentially decreasing injury recovery time.

Most likely it's something along the lines of way too high of a estrogen ratio is bad, AND way to low of a ratio is also bad, with optimal levels being in the average range, or within "normal levels", which I think most people who have alot of AAS experience can attest to, crashing your estrogen can make you feel like hell and have crazy sides, and having to high can make you feel like hell and also have crazy sides. Again super complicated, and the dudes with PhD's are not entirely certain yet either. Basically, we need more data.

 

[Type-IIx]

So high endogenous e2 makes tendons and ligaments weaker? What would you say is a good estrogen level. Does growth hormone grow/strengthen tendon and ligament therefore increasing preformance?

Yes, and it's quite clear and there's no real dispute worth noting. I personally ascribe to a value of, somewhat arbitarily, 80 pg/mL, as a ceiling for serum E2 concentrations with the use of supra-physiological test, nand, bold. With a preference for exemestane (Aromasin) to maintain this. Yes, GH does strengthen tendon & ligament, particularly stimulating procollagenous activity in the extracellular matrix, increasing performance.

 

[Type-IIx]

Also, it's worth noting, I should expand the use case of exogenous estrogens in men beyond committed transwomen to include the voluntarily castrated and those with clinical Aromatase deficiency (lack of genitalia, etc.) Basically, it's used in men for whom male sexual function is a foregone concern.

 

[Anavarlover]

Yes, and it's quite clear and there's no real dispute worth noting. I personally ascribe to a value of, somewhat arbitarily, 80 pg/mL, as a ceiling for serum E2 concentrations with the use of supra-physiological test, nand, bold. With a preference for exemestane (Aromasin) to maintain this. Yes, GH does strengthen tendon & ligament, particularly stimulating procollagenous activity in the extracellular matrix, increasing performance.

If you use gh for couple years and stop, will it be permanent?

 

[Type-IIx]

If you use gh for couple years and stop, will it be permanent?

Few things are permanent. There is constant turnover in collagen metabolism. GH tends to induce net accretion of type I collagen in tendon.

 

[MFAAS]

I think the main factor in reduced T (and separately, protein synthesis) from consuming beer is from the alcohol rather than the hops. But it's not something I've investigated or have any real familiarity with.

I wrote a post in this a while back if you want to check it out: Soybeans and phytoestrogens? Why does nobody talk about beer? Or Flax?

It isnt nicely formatted like yours but it'll have to do and serves as a good starting point for discussion.

Hops contain an extremely potent phytoestrogen, i believe it is actually still is the most potent phytoestrogen known thus far: 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN) It is so potent that one study found 2 or 3 light beers enough to treat menopause symptoms in menopausal women! In a nutshell, beer is lowering Testosterone via alcohol and activating estrogen via 8-PN.

Anyway, check it out. Feel free to comment or provide more insight as always.

 

[Type-IIx]

I wrote a post in this a while back if you want to check it out: Soybeans and phytoestrogens? Why does nobody talk about beer? Or Flax?

It isnt nicely formatted like yours but it'll have to do and serves as a good starting point for discussion.

Hops contain an extremely potent phytoestrogen, i believe it is actually still is the most potent phytoestrogen known thus far: 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN) It is so potent that one study found 2 or 3 light beers enough to treat menopause symptoms in menopausal women! In a nutshell, beer is lowering Testosterone via alcohol and activating estrogen via 8-PN.

Anyway, check it out. Feel free to comment or provide more insight as always.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[Para_33]

Brother, I've looked at peoples bloodwork doing it, and how they felt, for some, it clearly was not estrogenic enough. Theory being Deca only could be used as TRT, and potentially lessen hair loss sides, but it's not very good on your overall markers long term. Deca was merely an example on why you may want to run estrogen while running specific protocols. People mistakenly think estrogen is the devil.

While IIx is on the side that exogenous estrogen is always bad and automatized is the only good way, I clearly disagree. If you're not aromatizing sufficiently at a given level of androgens, in some situations you may not want to take higher doses of androgens to compensate. Instead you can use injectable estradiol to bring your levels to within physiological range. Just because you use a small dose of estrogens, is not going to all of the sudden make you a transvestite if you're within normal levels, as he makes it seem in his original post.

Separate question slightly, but you’ve seen bloodwork on nandrolone- did you notice any difference in effect on shbg?

Like if someone was running Deca only / 140mg testosterone and 1000mg Deca per week

And how that would compare to just running 1000mg of testosterone per week by itself.

I’m doing
Testosterone 40mg EOD(140mg/week)

Nandrolone decanoate 300mg EOD (1050mg/week)

And I’ve added in .2mg Estradiol valerate injectable EOD to get my Lc/Ms E2 to 45pg/ml ( I have very very very low aromatase activity, so without it on trt along it’s like 12pg/ml) I feel better with it in.

I’m wondering if I can recover Shbg significantly because I took primo and test early on for 3 weeks and it tanked my Shbg to 9.8. Now it’s steadily comming up to 12.8 after 3 weeks. But 2 weeks after that it leveled off and dropped to 11 again. I figure having sufficient estradiol and less DHT will promote Shbg to come up again.

But I’m wondering how much less, If any nandrolone has on Shbg. Ideally I’d want to recover it and not cruise because everything else is perfect, just want more Shbg.

 

[Twizted]

Separate question slightly, but you’ve seen bloodwork on nandrolone- did you notice any difference in effect on shbg?

Like if someone was running Deca only / 140mg testosterone and 1000mg Deca per week

And how that would compare to just running 1000mg of testosterone per week by itself.

I’m doing
Testosterone 40mg EOD(140mg/week)

Nandrolone decanoate 300mg EOD (1050mg/week)

And I’ve added in .2mg Estradiol valerate injectable EOD to get my Lc/Ms E2 to 45pg/ml ( I have very very very low aromatase activity, so without it on trt along it’s like 12pg/ml) I feel better with it in.

I’m wondering if I can recover Shbg significantly because I took primo and test early on for 3 weeks and it tanked my Shbg to 9.8. Now it’s steadily comming up to 12.8 after 3 weeks. But 2 weeks after that it leveled off and dropped to 11 again. I figure having sufficient estradiol and less DHT will promote Shbg to come up again.

But I’m wondering how much less, If any nandrolone has on Shbg. Ideally I’d want to recover it and not cruise because everything else is perfect, just want more Shbg.

Why do you want higher SHBG?