WTF? Why is there such a worldwide hatred for steroids?

[narta]

I honestly find it pathetic when people whose lives revolve around Big Pharma turn around and pretend like they are above them and victimized by them.

There is a difference between medicinal research and Big Pharma. The former is were scientific breakthroughs occur. The later is the lobbying, pos, waste of breathing oxygen, greedy fucks, that insist treating and not curing people in order to maximize profit.

Big Pharma is Big Pharma because we live in free capitalist countries with free markets. They’re run by high IQ people who know what the fuck they’re doing.

This notion that big companies are only big because of some vague notion of corruption that nobody can actually coherently explain is low IQ cope.

Big Pharma exists because they have influence over politicians that are the ones passing the laws. Tobacco doesn't cause cancer (lol), thalidomide was perfectly safe (teratogenesis was an added bonus, who doesn't love a 3 headed child?), Oxycotin didn't cause addiction etc. Those corrupt FUCKS should die a slow and painful death for all the sorrow and death they caused through the years.

So FUCK Big Pharma, if you get my drift

 

[thejumpingsheep]

This a serious question...I understand they've been demonized over the years, but reading how bad other countries crack down on them makes me realize its more than just US short sightedness.

Didnt read all the pages. Sorry if it was already covered. The reason is parents make up a huge moivated voting block and they will vote for nearly anything that they deem protective for their kids. Kids are a big driver for drug bans.

I know the arguments for both sides and I tend to lean towards an alcohol style age ban but it is what it is right now.

 

[Middus]

There is a difference between medicinal research and Big Pharma. The former is were scientific breakthroughs occur. The later is the lobbying, pos, waste of breathing oxygen, greedy fucks, that insist treating and not curing people in order to maximize profit.

Big Pharma exists because they have influence over politicians that are the ones passing the laws. Tobacco doesn't cause cancer (lol), thalidomide was perfectly safe (teratogenesis was an added bonus, who doesn't love a 3 headed child?), Oxycotin didn't cause addiction etc. Those corrupt FUCKS should die a slow and painful death for all the sorrow and death they caused through the years.

So FUCK Big Pharma, if you get my drift

Big Pharma is the convenient bogeyman and society loves bogeymen.
The real enemy would be a conniving government.
Everyone lobbies in the US. Gun merchants lobby, Workers union lobby, even religious groups lobby. Lobbying doesn't make any one inherently evil. What is evil is someone refusing to do their jobs because of benefits.
Isn't it weird that the main G7 country that seemed to suffer devastating effects of an opioid crisis is the US? Weren't opioids available everywhere? People can say Purdue forced opoids on doctors, but never talk about the willingness of doctors to prescribe pain killers. No one talks about how the CMS making pain a 5th vital sign (then adding physician ratings based on management ) influenced doctors to keep prescribing pain meds for chronic pain.
There is something about the way business is conducted stateside that results in Big.. lol
Big business (where I would place tobacco)
Big Food
Big tech
Big Pharma
Big Military a.k.a Military industrial complex
and now, after Citizens united, Big politics.
Pharma is cut throat. You swim or sink. There is almost no industry as regulated as pharma.
For almost a decade I was in pharma... in my final stint i was in pharmacoeconomics. It was there I saw the many facets involved in doing business and making a profit over here.
Part of the reasons drugs are expensive is not just R&D. They add costs of possible lawsuits calculated after doing legal risk assessments. They tack on extra to boost legal reserves. There are also huge costs associated with clinical trials.
This is why I smile when I hear folks say "if this and this worked, wouldn't big pharma be interested"
Big pharma has calculated the cost of trialing, the cost of dealing with lawsuits related to the med, plus competitive price point (after adding price buffer). Many peptides we use and report anecdotal benefits with aren't simply profitable enough when weighed against all these other factors.

Big pharma is as evil as capitalism is.
Do I think Capitalism is evil? No..
I am certainly not shilling for pharma. There are many downright disgusting and inhuman things some companies have done. In every single case however, the government(s) played important roles in allowing it.

Pointing fingers at Big Pharma is exactly why we will continue finger pointing with zero for the next 3 decades. You want more success, get more decent folks into office that will ensure regulation. These ideas might as well be communism to some folks this side of the waters..

Excuse my digression from the main topic

 

[mikeh1998]

About to end it all unless someone can give me 1 good reason.

 

[HeatherSwanson]

My GF makes this face when I pull out the magic wand. Sometimes I pretend im Harry Potter and yell Expecto My Boner!

 

[mikeh1998]

The definition is within the word. Processed is the gradual striping of anything that makes a food harder to digest or carry more benefits. Fibers, vitamins etc and in the case of carbohydrates going from complex to simpler. Think of wheat. Full husk, whole grain, white flour

This is not a good definition.

Take flour and milk for example. You cannot buy "unprocessed" flour in Canada or the USA at a grocery store or any commercial supplier. All the flour and milk is required to be fortified with vitamins, iron, folic acid and so on. Dairy has to be pasteurized to be sold. Eggs have to be washed with detergents to remove the cuticle and then refrigerated.

These "processed foods" are objectively healthier than their non-processed counterparts. This is why people aren't getting rickets and so on today.

You cannot convince me bodybuilders that hop on steroids give up all processed foods or anything close to it. Processed foods are a fact of daily life. If anything they are eating more processed foods.

And the worst thing about eating processed foods is the addiction. Your taste buds become accustomed to high fat high sugar and everything else tastes like shit

I don't think anyone willing to use PEDs is going to care about eliminating processed foods when they need to eat >3500 calories and >150 g protein per day to gain mass. It's not practical to do this on chicken breast and brown rice. Whey shakes and dextrose and cream of wheat are popular for a reason right?

It's not. But it's a good driving force to avoid junk food. I am not talking the occasional dirty burger or sweet. I am talking the 24/7 consumption of pop tarts, cereal with added sugar, fast food etc.

Okay, if we are talking about a typical gear user as being reasonable and diligent about their diet (again, not necessarily true, you can take steroids and eat like shit, they are not like GLP-1s..) wouldn't it also be fair to talk about the typical processed food eater (i.e. 99.9% of the human population) in comparison?

Even overweight people in Canada/USA are not eating Pop Tarts and Froot Loops and Big Macs for every meal. What I have observed is that they mostly eat food at home followed by a burger and fries and coke/bag of lays >=5x per week.

To make this discussion even more absurd... the claim was "steroid use isn't as bad as eating processed foods"... My point is that processed foods are not even 1/16th as dangerous as steroids and on top of that you have agreed they aren't mutually exclusive.

That's why I think the argument about steroids vs processed foods is inane.

I still standby this:

* Processed foods are not dangerous and are a fact of life, everyone is eating them
* Even eating a full McDonald's meal every day is not that dangerous
* Steroid use and processed food consumption is not mutually exclusive
* Steroids are so much more dangerous than the SAD (standard American diet) even comparing the two is absurd
* That's why steroids are stigmatized

you probably believe everything you watch on the news

Read the sign.

 

[narta]

Take flour and milk for example. You cannot buy "unprocessed" flour in Canada or the USA at a grocery store or any commercial supplier.

Can you buy whole grain flour? Processed vs non processed is white vs whole grain.

I don't think anyone willing to use PEDs is going to care about eliminating processed foods when they need to eat >3500 calories and >150 g protein per day to gain mass. It's not practical to do this on chicken breast and brown rice. Whey shakes and dextrose and cream of wheat are popular for a reason right?

There are ways to add calories from non junk food. You seem to think that calories equals junk food. You are VERY wrong. You need more food. If you can't eat big, resorting to junk to fill the calories is retarded.

Whey, simple carbs and cream of rice are tools of the trade. Preworkout meals that are light and don't interfere with training

My point is that processed foods are not even 1/16th as dangerous as steroids

And that number comes from.....? Southern body region I presume?

Steroids are so much more dangerous than the SAD (standard American diet) even comparing the two is absurd

You do understand that there is use, abuse and steroids that are not even anabolics right?

 

[Middus]

You know, I just realized that in the various arguments we've been having in this comment section, we have been comparing steroids to things that also carry some sort of social stigma..
Alcohol goes without saying..
Junk food is literally called "JUNK"
...and it's no longer cool to smoke Tobacco (whether Cigarettes or Pipes.. the jury is still out on cigars)

 

[Middus]

Can you buy whole grain flour? Processed vs non processed is white vs whole grain.

There are ways to add calories from non junk food. You seem to think that calories equals junk food. You are VERY wrong. You need more food. If you can't eat big, resorting to junk to fill the calories is retarded.

Whey, simple carbs and cream of rice are tools of the trade. Preworkout meals that are light and don't interfere with training

And that number comes from.....? Southern body region I presume?

You do understand that there is use, abuse and steroids that are not even anabolics right?

The safety of steroids compared to junk food are incomparable. Why is this an argument?
We can make rational arguments about overhype on dangers of steroid use without drawing exaggerated comparisons to junk food.

E.g What is the danger presented to a healthy but underaged consumer, of Burgers falling into the hands of said consumer (13 year old kid) everyday for 5 months, vs AAS falling into the hands of the same 13 year old for even fortnightly use, for equal 5 months?
Make that a 13 year old girl and it gets even more interesting.

 

[mikeh1998]

There are ways to add calories from non junk food. You seem to think that calories equals junk food. You are VERY wrong. You need more food. If you can't eat big, resorting to junk to fill the calories is retarded.

Whey, simple carbs and cream of rice are tools of the trade. Preworkout meals that are light and don't interfere with training

Aren't those all processed foods!?!?!?!?

This is the problem. I am saying AAS use is dangerous in any context... Processed foods != junk food and even then junk food is not as dangerous as AAS.

And that number comes from.....? Southern body region I presume?

Vyvanse™.

You do understand that there is use, abuse and steroids that are not even anabolics right?

Even TRT (actual TRT like 50-150 mg/week......... not >=200 mg/week or stacking Deca or Anavar with it for "muh joints" or the other retarded protocols) has been proven to cause or is at least linked to negative health outcomes.....

Sleep apnea, high RBC, androgenic alopecia, gynecomastia, high BP, BPH, low fertility/testicular atrophy, strokes/heart attacks/heart hypertrophy...

I don't know what you mean by "steroids that are not anabolic" in this context, obviously we are not talking about prednisone or dexamethasone or androgens like Proviron/DHT here...

 

[narta]

Aren't those all processed foods!?!?!?!?

You 've said that eating processed foods like Big Mac everyday. Big Mac is junk food. Processed foods in the context of people who train equals junk food, not just something that is processed fruit->juice, milk->whey etc.

This is the problem. I am saying AAS use is dangerous in any context

No they are not. There are thousands of walking proofs out there.

Vyvanse™.

Please elaborate how a ADHD drug has anything to do with AAS

Even TRT (actual TRT like 50-150 mg/week......... not >=200 mg/week or stacking Deca or Anavar with it for "muh joints" or the other retarded protocols) has been proven to cause or is at least linked to negative health outcomes.....

Sleep apnea, high RBC, androgenic alopecia, gynecomastia, high BP, BPH, low fertility/testicular atrophy, strokes/heart attacks/heart hypertrophy...

I can list the negative health outcomes of ibuprofen, aspirin, even fat soluble vitamins. Your point?

 

[mikeh1998]

You 've said that eating processed foods like Big Mac everyday. Big Mac is junk food. Processed foods in the context of people who train equals junk food, not just something that is processed fruit->juice, milk->whey etc.

Okay I get it. I wanted someone to define what they mean by processed food and this is a fair definition. Fruit -> juice and milk -> whey is just separating ingredients and mixing them rather than inserting additives. I can accept that and it's a better definition than just saying "processed food" without explanation.

No they are not. There are thousands of walking proofs out there.

But there are hundreds of millions of people who eat junk food daily and are perfectly fine too.

We are discussing relative risk... Take the pool of junk food eaters versus the pool of steroid users. The steroid users would have a higher number of adverse effects and severe adverse affects even if we select for TRT users who never eat junk food is my point.

All the consequences I listed with TRT can happen to someone who is eating a clean diet and using 100 mg/week. There's nothing stopping that guy from getting a significant adverse effect like gynecomastia or BPH.

Someone comparably reasonable who eats junk food eating a McDouble and medium fries and Diet Coke every day will be perfectly fine. Even if they do it for 10 years. It's just not that harmful. Even the harmful effects like increased blood pressure are easily reversible or prevented.

That's not the case for TRT-induced gynecomastia for example. You need SERMs/AIs to prevent it and it cannot be reversed without surgery.

I can list the negative health outcomes of ibuprofen, aspirin, even fat soluble vitamins. Your point?

Same thing here. The negative health outcomes of TRT are more frequent and severe than the negative health outcomes of all of these combined.

 

[narta]

But there are hundreds of millions of people who eat junk food daily and are perfectly fine too.

Define perfectly fine. There is a fucking reason Japanese people live longer than westerners. Diet.

Take the pool of junk food eaters versus the pool of steroid users. The steroid users would have a higher number of adverse effects and severe adverse affects even if we select for TRT users who never eat junk food is my point.

You are mixing users with abusers. If you want to compare the occasional junk food eater with a AAS user pick a trt guy. Abusers are the equivalent of a beached whale 24/7 junk food eater. Both are going to die. Fast.

There's nothing stopping that guy from getting a significant adverse effect like gynecomastia or BPH.

Gyno is cosmetic. BPH is something most of the world male population suffers one time or another

Someone comparably reasonable who eats junk food eating a McDouble and medium fries and Diet Coke every day will be perfectly fine. Even if they do it for 10 years. It's just not that harmful.

No they won't.

 

[AlexDavis43]

There is a difference between medicinal research and Big Pharma. The former is were scientific breakthroughs occur. The later is the lobbying, pos, waste of breathing oxygen, greedy fucks, that insist treating and not curing people in order to maximize profit.

I've worked on both sides and this is comparing apples to oranges. Legit scientific endeavor occurs in pharma and academia. You're lumping basic scientists (both pharma and academia) with cut throat executives (mainly Big Pharma, but some in academia too).

 

[brutalbuilt]

This is not a good definition.

Take flour and milk for example. You cannot buy "unprocessed" flour in Canada or the USA at a grocery store or any commercial supplier. All the flour and milk is required to be fortified with vitamins, iron, folic acid and so on. Dairy has to be pasteurized to be sold. Eggs have to be washed with detergents to remove the cuticle and then refrigerated.

These "processed foods" are objectively healthier than their non-processed counterparts. This is why people aren't getting rickets and so on today.

You cannot convince me bodybuilders that hop on steroids give up all processed foods or anything close to it. Processed foods are a fact of daily life. If anything they are eating more processed foods.


I don't think anyone willing to use PEDs is going to care about eliminating processed foods when they need to eat >3500 calories and >150 g protein per day to gain mass. It's not practical to do this on chicken breast and brown rice. Whey shakes and dextrose and cream of wheat are popular for a reason right?


Okay, if we are talking about a typical gear user as being reasonable and diligent about their diet (again, not necessarily true, you can take steroids and eat like shit, they are not like GLP-1s..) wouldn't it also be fair to talk about the typical processed food eater (i.e. 99.9% of the human population) in comparison?

Even overweight people in Canada/USA are not eating Pop Tarts and Froot Loops and Big Macs for every meal. What I have observed is that they mostly eat food at home followed by a burger and fries and coke/bag of lays >=5x per week.

To make this discussion even more absurd... the claim was "steroid use isn't as bad as eating processed foods"... My point is that processed foods are not even 1/16th as dangerous as steroids and on top of that you have agreed they aren't mutually exclusive.

That's why I think the argument about steroids vs processed foods is inane.

I still standby this:

* Processed foods are not dangerous and are a fact of life, everyone is eating them
* Even eating a full McDonald's meal every day is not that dangerous
* Steroid use and processed food consumption is not mutually exclusive
* Steroids are so much more dangerous than the SAD (standard American diet) even comparing the two is absurd
* That's why steroids are stigmatized


Read the sign.

View attachment 318117

suck cock

 

[lukiss96]

Because they want the society to be weak so it's easier to control the masses.

 

[Slowww]

I don't think anyone willing to use PEDs is going to care about eliminating processed foods when they need to eat >3500 calories and >150 g protein per day to gain mass. It's not practical to do this on chicken breast and brown rice. Whey shakes and dextrose and cream of wheat are popular for a reason right?

It is extremely easy to eat largely unprocessed food and reach that amount of calories or more… it’s totally practical. A lot of people who use PEDs want to eliminate most highly processed food with additives because you do need to take care of health while using steroids. People use whey, EAAs and dextrose for speed of digestion during critical windows not because it is convenient, but because it is best practice for muscle building or they don’t want to puke getting intra carbs.

 

[YatesIsBased]

Read the sign.

Your sign is gay and you still wear your gov mask while alone in your car.
Just look at what processed food has done to your brain.
No offense. Just sayin.

 

[mikeh1998]

Define perfectly fine. There is a fucking reason Japanese people live longer than westerners. Diet.

The real reason is because steroids are illegal in Japan and they don’t let them enter the country.

Your sign is gay and you still wear your gov mask while alone in your car.
Just look at what processed food has done to your brain.
No offense. Just sayin.

You probably live in a trailer park and work as a warehouse forklift driver.

 

[PermaBlastingTren]

I'd like to see stats on the claim that young kids are on steroids more than previous generations. I see this being claimed a lot but I don't believe it. I would bet that steroids were much more common in the 1980s-2000s for example back when they were legal and I would bet that people were starting them way earlier in life than they are now.

Gen Z is way more risk averse and sheltered compared to previous generations. Something like 1/2 don't even have drivers licenses and the age to lose your virginity is going up and up. They are too occupied with social media.

Hell talking to people born after 2005 it feels like they don't even actually use the internet, they just know that they connect to "wifi" and open up Instagram, Discord or TikTok. Half of them cannot even Google or use ChatGPT.

The savvy ones are clever enough to use Reddit. I genuinely don't think they are technically competent enough to actually find steroid source websites and make a Proton Mail account and pay using Bitcoin.

pretty much