Maybe the Nixon doctrine was the better statagy, a limited nuclear first strike.
Can I see a raise of hands?
Can I see a raise of hands?
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Russia begins invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter Fifap94
- Start date
Well, remember what we did when Russia took Crimea? Nothing but sanctions. The difference is Crimea had been Russia until Kruschev gave it to Ukraiine in '56, so all they had to do is have some "little green men" go in and take it without any shots being fired. The Donbas didn't have that kind of Russian support so they recruited and armed these militias, even gave them armored vehicles. That war in the Donbas solidified hatred on both sides.
But a difficult question here is what is an ethnic Russian and ethnic Ukrainian? Putin says in his essay if you speak 2 languages you aren't a people, if you speak Russian you're Russian. As Americans and Europeans we know that is flawed logic, we aren't English, and a lot of people along their border will speak Russian as well as Ukrainian.
I matched with someone on Tinder who fled Kharkiv and the interesting thing is the Kharkiv suburbs are a half hour drive from the Russian border, a lot of people speak Russian there, the Russians sent their 1st Guards Tank Army (their most elite forces meant to take on NATO if there's ever a conflict), and the Ukrainians totally destroyed the Russians in Kharkiv. She says Kharkiv is Ukrainian.
But I think our response, and Ukraine's anger, would've been different if they didn't try to capture Kiev. Remember Putin thinks Ukrainians are historically Russians anyway so they won't be opposed, but they were - they weren't happy about the Donbas militias. Once that happened, along with the alleged atrocities and all the infrastructure bombing, this was going to be a war that if Russia lost they would be made to regret. Wherever they end up drawing the border lines at will also need to be defendable if/when Russia invades again.
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One thing some people worry about is what if they mobilize a million more people? But they can't supply the troops they have out there. These wouldn't be trained soldiers. They can only fire so many artillery rounds. They have lost their best tanks when the 1st Guards was routed and also with the javelin strikes around Kiev.
So, some want to say they've got something else up their sleeve but this is likely the best they can do. They had a standing army of 900k when they invaded, they didn't invade with that many but you can bet they sent reinforcements from Moscow as needed.
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You're so full of shit it's nauseating.
Russian people are no different than anyone else.
Everyone is trying to figure out how to get by and live thier lives the best way they can. Russian, Ukrainian and American.
Your stupid bullshit about "Russians this" and "Russians think that" is just typical fucked up arrogant and ignorant ramblings of a goddamn idiot.
You take greedy aspirations of corrupt governments and thier corporate handler's out of the equation and people can figure out how to live together.
I'm tired of your stupidity and parroting of bullshit propoganda over and over again.
Washington is no less corrupt than Moscow or Kiev.
And it's the people who are suffering while you stand on the sidelines in your fucked up little blue bubble musing about fairytale stories with heroes and villains and little princesses
You're like a little teenage bitch wearing a paper crown calling herself the princess of the story waiting for the heroes to come home.
It's fukkin pathetic
I agree Paul.
And making peace is not going to be easy. Not just because there's going to be animosity. But because the vested monetary interests do not want peace.
And the thing that bothers General Bakshi is he's not in the US, Europe, or Russia yet he has to deal with the global economic consequences and nuclear risk too.
My hope is that the people themselves rise up and say enough already.
Germany along with much of Europe is already seeing demonstrations of thousands of people calling for an end to the war.
Americans are much more comfortable for the time being, and so far our government has been able to launch a massive propoganda campaign with the help of the corporate media selling this war to stupid people like @hometeam that actually cheers on the death and destruction because he thinks it's good for him and his leaders.
But I'm starting to see a lot more anti war sentiments starting to break through the propoganda wall.
We all need to call out the corruption, the lies and the hypocrisy and demand our own leadership does everything it can to bring a ceasefire and broker peace here.
Washington will not let Ukraine negotiate. We cannot accept that.
If the people can put enough pressure on our own administration, we can end this without a catastrophe Paul.
Fuck you're an idiot.
Russia is going to crush those poor bastards.
They've already blown through most all of the munitions NATO can afford to spare and Russia is literally gaining weight and just getting started. They've got 700k new soldiers, they're firing 600,000 artillery rounds a day and are producing them just as fast.
Stop the fairytale cunt ass bullshit already
This isn't about ego.
We should all be trying to save what's left of the ukranian people and stop playing games with their lives.
Then pick up the pieces of our own country and try to live in peace
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I think it's a bad idea.
It doesn't matter who fires first. We're all dead in the aftermath.
The only way out of this is a negotiation and peace deal.
NATO is not going to "defeat Russia" in Ukraine. You know that as well as I do.
And that fukkin idiot @hometeam is just going to have to come to grips with the reality that Washington can no longer bully the world into doing and acting the way it wants. The unipolar world order with Washington at the top is over.
The good news is that when this is all over with, we could have a regime change in Washington very soon. And America is going to go through some changes, possibly even split into a few separate republic's, but at least we'll have another chance to have at least one free Republic again in north America
They were firing 60,000 (not 600,000) at their peak, but not anymore:
From Strength To Vulnerability: The Decline Of Russian Artillery In The Ukraine War
The lack of training and experience, particularly by Russian officers, has led to the overuse of artillery. The Ukrainians have successfully exploited this issue, turning what should be a large Russian strength into one of their largest vulnerabilities.
www.forbes.com
And we know from WWI that with this style of war (with artillery, trenches, bunkers, people hiding/firing from brick buildings) it doesn't result in one side crushing the other. They fired a lot more rounds then and gained inches. Until Russia gets air superiority, or a way to defend their tanks from these anti-tank missiles, it will be a symmetrical war as General Bakshi of India says. Crushing is just some Russian fantasy.
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They were firing 60,000 (not 600,000) at their peak, but not anymore:
From Strength To Vulnerability: The Decline Of Russian Artillery In The Ukraine War
The lack of training and experience, particularly by Russian officers, has led to the overuse of artillery. The Ukrainians have successfully exploited this issue, turning what should be a large Russian strength into one of their largest vulnerabilities.
And we know from WWI that with this style of war (with artillery, trenches, bunkers, people hiding/firing from brick buildings) it doesn't result in one side crushing the other. They fired a lot more rounds then and gained inches. Until Russia gets air superiority, or a way to defend their tanks from these anti-tank missiles, it will be a symmetrical war as General Bakshi of India says. Crushing is just some Russian fantasy.
The only fantasy here is your bullshit musings about the forces of good vs some bizarre image of a megalomaniac cartoon supervillain bent on world domination.
This is horrible atrocious, violent war here. Propagated by rich and powerful people for profit and empirical aspirations.
The truth on the ground is much more simple. Ukraine is getting smashed. It's already lost, thier country has been pounded into rubble already. They'll never get back the occupied areas because they alienated the local population.
Washington has resurrected the corpse a few times already, but Joe Biden is running out of Ukranian bodies to toss into this money making meat grinder he's created.
In the end, this will be a compromised peace one way or the other.
Joe Biden would like to spend every Ukrainian life and American dollar he can to enrich his handlers, but the end is near either way.
Ukraine will be just like every other ally people like Joe have used to enrich themselves.
Yeah, Putin says exactly why he started it in his essay: that they've historically been one pan-Slavic state and the only thing keeping them apart is the West, he's trying to right that wrong and you don't want to hear it or read it you want to shift all the blame onto your nemesis Biden.
On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians - Wikipedia
Well yeah, if Putin can't have it he's going to try to destroy it, turn it into a rump state, a welfare state of the EU. The last thing he wants is a Westernized democratic Ukraine to be successful. His people might want that for Russia and that's the end for him. But the West has a lot of resources to help Ukraine rebuild and we're not forcing them to fight. Kiev and Kharkiv and Dnipro etc are vibrant cities, not rubblized.
It will end, but only when both sides are ready to stop fighting. One year is way too soon for a war where there's this kind of animosity to end. There would be riots in Kiev. With a Russian offensive already started, 40 countries sending aid, tanks coming from Poland/Germany/UK, $30 billion from congress yet to be spent (that most American support), it's not like Biden could snap his fingers and end it.
And it's only costing us 5% of our defense budget. It's weakening our adversary. So who do you root for? The US, the West, Democracy, respecting borders? Or Putin, his dictator supporters, Russian expansion?
People have been saying that for a year despite what's happened in Kiev, Kharkiv, and Kherson. The difference between WWI and WWII was tanks and bombers. Now we have helicopters and cruise missiles. But Russia's tanks and airplanes have been taken out of the fight by modern anti-tank and anti-aircraft technology. Except for drones, satellites, and cruise missiles they have gone back to WWI, and artillery alone is not enough to "smash" a country. This isn't like US vs Afghanistan or US vs Iraq where you pound with heavy bombers for weeks, millions of tons of bombs, then come in with tanks and apache gunships.
So they'll go at it until they're both tired. That doesn't happen in one year. Russia can't even take Eastern Ukraine let alone all of it, and Ukraine's will to fight and save their nation's existence is much greater than Russia's will to invade. That's why Putin has to write essays like that, and call it a special military operation. And I'm not sure why you'd even want Russia to win, other than if Ukraine succeeds Biden succeeds and that can't happen.
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I think it's been the West's position that it's not our place to tell Ukraine when to stop fighting. We can't make that decision for them. Maybe if they were the invaders, but they are not. Maybe if it comes to the point where we can't help them anymore, but we can. For us to say "hey we have moral qualms about the casualties you defending yourself is causing so you should just stop and get defeated or make a peace settlement you don't want"... you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
Or "hey Biden actually started this all with a coup and a bribe (neither of which we have proof of) and Russia's really justified in invading to teach Biden a lesson and take down the US military industrial complex's evil plans to start a war, so we don't want you to fight, just become Russia or give Putin what he wants" that would come from someone with little understanding of the situation and mental illness, and be brushed aside.
Or "hey Biden actually started this all with a coup and a bribe (neither of which we have proof of) and Russia's really justified in invading to teach Biden a lesson and take down the US military industrial complex's evil plans to start a war, so we don't want you to fight, just become Russia or give Putin what he wants" that would come from someone with little understanding of the situation and mental illness, and be brushed aside.
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You really are one ignorant POS
Washington is completely driving Ukrainian government decisions at this point and Washington will decide when Ukranians stop dying
More Evidence That The West Sabotaged Peace In Ukraine
Listen to a reading of this article: ❖ Days after the war in Ukraine began it was reported by The New York Times that “President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine has asked the Israeli prime mini…
caitlinjohnstone.com
How stupid can you get?
For fucks sake Nuland and US intelligence themselves don't deny thier role in the coup. They're proud of it.
And you're stupid enough to deny it?
Lmfao.
What a fukkin joke
Russia and China have drawn thier red lines on their borders.
Washington draws it's lines on the other side of the world.
But yeah "Russian aggression" howls the local idiot
"Let's just keep sending Ukrainian people off to die and keep spending money we don't have because 'Russia bad'"
Talk about being a mental retard
@hometeam said this, let's not forget that he is in total agreement with sending every last Ukrainian willing to go, off to die for his and Joe Bidens benifit.
He doesn't give a fuck about the ukranian people, or even about the American taxpayers. He's an imperialist, liberal idiot cheering on the aspirations and conniving methods of his gods in Washington
"I came here because this Ukraine aid seems to be a good deal for the US... very affordable aid setting back the military a dictator antagonistic to the West controls by 20 years". @hometeam
All because his gods in Washington don't control the Asian continent yet. So let's launch coups, destabilize and provoke wars until they can move in and loot whatever is left.
That's this bastards mentality
He doesn't give a fuck about the ukranian people, or even about the American taxpayers. He's an imperialist, liberal idiot cheering on the aspirations and conniving methods of his gods in Washington
"I came here because this Ukraine aid seems to be a good deal for the US... very affordable aid setting back the military a dictator antagonistic to the West controls by 20 years". @hometeam
All because his gods in Washington don't control the Asian continent yet. So let's launch coups, destabilize and provoke wars until they can move in and loot whatever is left.
That's this bastards mentality
Yet again, this is something you're grossly misinformed on. But you only want information that suits your narrative that Biden has to go. Here's Victoria Nuland talking about it:
View: https://youtu.be/k9seyqBQ-P4?t=2535
She says because Yanukovych had done something expected to upset the Ukrainian people that the protests were spontaneous, there was turmoil in the government, and as an American diplomat and Assistant Secretary of State for Europe she was trying to help broker deals that would make everybody happy. But Russia was pressuring Yanukovych to crack down on the protesters and not make deals. Then he fled and they tried to help Ukraine (at their request) with an interim government until they could have an election. I'd be proud of that too.
What on Earth makes you think Ukraine wants to give up and Washington won't let them? All evidence is to the contrary. They've been attacked, they're angry, and you say we boss other countries around too much. They're the ones who have been invaded, they're the ones that will lose territory or their country, they're the ones losing their lives. Who are we to tell them to stop defending themselves and just give Putin the aggressor what he wants?
And just so your nemesis Joe Biden maybe doesn't get re-elected? You don't care about the Ukrainians either, and since when have the Ukrainians cared about Americans? For you it's all about if Ukraine is successful Biden is successful and you can't have that. So, as political hack and sore loser, you make this bleeding heart story about how there's too many deaths and Biden is the cause. It's ridiculous.
Biden didn't invade, and Biden didn't do a Jedi mind trick on Putin. And Putin isn't some big dumb bear who can't help himself but attack when angry, if Ukraine still had their 1,200 nukes there would be no invasion. What happens in Ukraine is none of Putin's business - it's not his country.
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Lmfao.
What a stupid bitch you really are.
"Washington didn't orchestrate a coup, they simply funded and organized an insurrection that started on it own and led to a coup" - @hometeam
I beginning to think you like making yourself look stupid, or else you're really that stupid and just don't know it.
https://youtu.be/k9seyqBQ-P4?t=2535
No, it was something that upset the international banking system.
Which was declining to accept their deals that would lead to Ukraine bankruptcy and failure to pay pensions. Which is the money Joe Biden is bribing them with now to keep sending Ukrainian working people off to die in the meat grinder.
Paying lush pensions of ukranian ogliarchs willing to do the bidding of Joe Bidens corporate handler's
There's no proof of that whatsoever.
The best you have is some CNN MSNBC opinion article wrote well after the fact.
So stop lying
You'd be proud of starting a civil war that led to the destruction of a nation and it's people?
Of course you would. Your a lying snake in the grass cowardly piece of shit hiding behind men better than yourself because you can.
I've already shown you that.
You didn't read it, because you never do.
More Evidence That The West Sabotaged Peace In Ukraine
Listen to a reading of this article: ❖ Days after the war in Ukraine began it was reported by The New York Times that “President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine has asked the Israeli prime mini…
caitlinjohnstone.com
Obviously you're lying.... again
More Evidence That The West Sabotaged Peace In Ukraine
Listen to a reading of this article: ❖ Days after the war in Ukraine began it was reported by The New York Times that “President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine has asked the Israeli prime mini…
caitlinjohnstone.com
Lmfao
So after instigating a coup that triggered a civil war. We should just keep it going as long as they're willing to keep dying?
What a piece of shit
Joe Biden took bribes from corrupt Eastern European ogliarchs to create a war.
Now he's funding those corrupt Eastern European ogliarchs with American taxpayers money in war they cannot win where most of the money is going to pensions (bribes) and bailouts (settlements) to keep a war going that destroying Ukrainian common people by the thousands.
But, but, but....hoooooray for Joe Biden!
Lmfao
What a fuckin fairytale. You're such a cunt.
Well for all we know there are aliens on Earth, right? But until you have evidence it's just your hunch. Don't act like it's fact. You said Victoria Nuland doesn't even deny it, well I just showed you her denying it.
No matter what happened it doesn't justify firing on the crowd like they would do in Russia or Syria. And you can say they killed themselves, but it doesn't justify Russia arming those militias or invading.
There would be no civil war if Russia didn't recruit and arm those militias.
And it goes back to what Putin wrote in his essay about Ukraine:
On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians - Wikipedia
And sure he blames the West, but Ukraine is clearly now their own nation with a country full of people willing to die rather than be part of Russia. Russia either failed to Westernize/modernize or was unwilling, they want to keep this historically Russian system of a tsar and his oligarchs going, and Ukraine wants to modernize. Why wouldn't they want to be like Finland, a country 3 hours from St Petersburg where you get to elect your leaders and make twice as much money for the same work?
Caitlin Johnstone? Her site says "some people think I’ve written for RT, but in reality RT is just one of the many outlets who’ve occasionally chosen on their own to republish my work"Obviously you're lying.... again
More Evidence That The West Sabotaged Peace In Ukraine
Listen to a reading of this article: ❖ Days after the war in Ukraine began it was reported by The New York Times that “President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine has asked the Israeli prime mini…
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Send a monthly donation: Subscribe to Patreon here Pros – Patreon offers us some stability in paying bills, as it is a consistent monthly sum that we can count on. Cons – The fees are …
caitlinjohnstone.com
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And your article says the former Israeli PM Naftali Bennett (who left office in June 2022) wanted to mediate peace negotiations in March 2022 one month after the invasion when Ukraine was on their heels but the West wouldn't let them do it (falsely making it sound as if the West wouldn't let peace talks happen).
Well, that's probably because there was already peace negotiations going on around that time elsewhere:
"The first meeting was held four days after the start of the invasion, on 28 February 2022, in Belarus. It concluded without result, with delegations from both sides returning to their capitals for consultations. A second and third round of talks took place on 3 and 7 March 2022, on the Belarus–Ukraine border, in an undisclosed location in the Gomel region of Belarus. A fourth and fifth round of talks were respectively held on 10 and 14 March in Istanbul, Turkey."
But Ukraine beat Russia in Kiev on April 6th, mobilized to 700k troops, and then got a $40 billion aid package from Congress in May with artillery and HIMARS. And ever since then Zelensky has said he doesn't want peace talks or has made pre-conditions such as Russia sends their troops home before peace talks.
nypost.com
But it sounds like he's willing to meet with Xi to talk about peace talks, saying that Putin would have to be replaced as President first:
nypost.com
Well, that's probably because there was already peace negotiations going on around that time elsewhere:
"The first meeting was held four days after the start of the invasion, on 28 February 2022, in Belarus. It concluded without result, with delegations from both sides returning to their capitals for consultations. A second and third round of talks took place on 3 and 7 March 2022, on the Belarus–Ukraine border, in an undisclosed location in the Gomel region of Belarus. A fourth and fifth round of talks were respectively held on 10 and 14 March in Istanbul, Turkey."
But Ukraine beat Russia in Kiev on April 6th, mobilized to 700k troops, and then got a $40 billion aid package from Congress in May with artillery and HIMARS. And ever since then Zelensky has said he doesn't want peace talks or has made pre-conditions such as Russia sends their troops home before peace talks.
Peace talks ‘out of the question’ for Ukraine as Russia continues airstrikes
A senior Ukrainian official said peace talks with Russia are “out of the question” after Russia’s latest bombardments, which included at least 100 missiles shot on Friday alone.
nypost.com
But it sounds like he's willing to meet with Xi to talk about peace talks, saying that Putin would have to be replaced as President first:
Zelensky will meet with China’s Xi after Beijing peace talk push
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Friday said he would meet with China’s Xi Jinping, though he categorically refused to negotiate with Vladimir Putin.
nypost.com
In the poll conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) between 13 and 18 May 2022, 82% of Ukrainians said they did not support any territorial concessions to Russia, even if it would prolong the war.
www.businesslive.co.za
Another KIIS poll conducted in September 2022 found that 87% of Ukrainians opposed any territorial concessions to Russia
www.euronews.com
In a Gallup survey, A clear majority -- 70% of all Ukrainians interviewed in early September -- say their country should continue fighting until it wins the war with Russia. Just over one in four (26%) favor negotiating to end it as soon as possible.
news.gallup.com
In a survey conducted by the Ilko Kucheriv Democratic Initiatives Foundation in cooperation with the sociological service of the Razumkov Center, 60% of Ukraine citizens do not support negotiations with Russia - even for the sake of saving lives:
www.ukrinform.net
In a June poll Funded by the Wall Street Journal and conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago, most Ukrainians are unwilling to achieve peace by granting Russia control over some parts of their territory. A large majority of those surveyed believe it would be unacceptable to grant Russia control over territory occupied by Russia before February 24th and 89% say the same about territories occupied by Russia after the start of the invasion.
www.norc.org
So like I said, if Zelensky gives Putin what he wants for peace there's riots in Kiev.
Most Ukrainians rule out any territorial concessions to end war
Poll shows 82% of respondents oppose giving up land, even if it prolongs the war
www.businesslive.co.za
Nearly 90% of Ukrainians oppose territorial concessions to Russia - poll
KYIV - Some 87% of Ukrainians
www.euronews.com
Ukrainians Support Fighting Until Victory
Most Ukrainians favor fighting until the country wins the war. To them, victory means retaking all territory seized by Russia since 2014, including Crimea.
news.gallup.com
Most Ukrainians think peace talks with Russia impossible
In Ukraine, 60% of citizens do not support negotiations with Russia - even for the sake of saving lives, according to a survey conducted by the Ilko Kucheriv Democratic Initiatives Foundation in cooperation with the sociological service of the Razumkov Center. — Ukrinform.
2022 WSJ/NORC Ukraine Poll | NORC.org
In a poll of Ukrainians approximately four-months after the start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Wall Street Journal and NORC find that more than half of those surveyed report that they personally know someone who has been killed in the conflict or lost a family member.o leave home.
www.norc.org
So like I said, if Zelensky gives Putin what he wants for peace there's riots in Kiev.
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