Sicsemptyran
Member
I took him to mean zero drugs vs drugs - In which case I totally get it but couldn’t agree more with your point.
Going from natural to 300mg a week was game-changing, but 300mg -> 600mg is an infinitely smaller boost.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Anyone else come to the realization that the drugs are literally 90% of the equation and it bums you out?
- Thread starter jtmarlin
- Start date
Going from natural to 300mg a week was game-changing, but 300mg -> 600mg is an infinitely smaller boost.
shredded.lyfe
Member
Yep and my natural T was always floating around the bottom of the reference range.
I know nattys with effectively no testosterone that are stronger and look better then these mongaloids blasting grams of pharmaceuticals.
They're just junkies man, excited to pin and that's it, they actually don't care about the results.
bananafeet
Member
View: https://youtu.be/TLDkty94RGA
Rippetoe answered this quite nicely. Unfortunately he's right.
They are just another tool, albeit a powerful one.
All the guys who say steroids/drugs are everything are usually dead. The guys who say it's genetic/training are usually still alive.
so let's do an exercise... at "abs visible" 12% bodyfat at 5'9 and 90kg (198lbs) you have 174 pounds of fat free mass
at 7% bodyfat you are 187 pounds meaning you are claiming to have enough muscle natty to stand onstage next to a men's physique IFBB PRO and look like you belong without drugs
ok
shredded.lyfe
Member
I have visible abs at 15% bodyfat because im not a low level bodybuilder and i actually move serious weight because im a national level athlete in both powerlifting and strongman.
Try again retard.
That's 100 percent true and I agree. I was talking about no drugs vs drugs or low level TRT (75-100mg) vs actual cycling. Even low level TRT vs no drugs is night and day in my experience.
Genetics are the biggest factor when it comes to bodybuilder
most top Olympians looked liked they were on gear when they were natural
compared to someone like Bostin Loyd who took ridiculous amounts claiming it was all drugs yet he couldn't get his pro card. By his logic he should have been mr.olympia (yes I know he said alot of this stuff just for views)
most top Olympians looked liked they were on gear when they were natural
compared to someone like Bostin Loyd who took ridiculous amounts claiming it was all drugs yet he couldn't get his pro card. By his logic he should have been mr.olympia (yes I know he said alot of this stuff just for views)
Duck Dodgers
New Member
They are 90% of the ‘bodybuilding’ look, but they are not 90% of the entire endeavor
Like many have said, I am sure we all know a guy who was on grams of stuff and looked like shit.
We also know dudes who were natural, and looked better than the dude waddling around the gym flaunting GASP apparel
Drugs push your physique to otherwise impossible standards. But without proper training, sleep, hydration, and nutrition, it doesn’t really matter what drugs you’re on .
Genetics are the biggest factor. I know people personally who have made strides in their physique AFTER they reduced their drug load. They fixed their training and diet. These are people who are competitive bodybuilders
All factors of bodybuilding are importsnt. Steroids play a necessary role, but they are not 90%. Each aspect of bodybuilding is vital, really.
But to your point, yes natural bodybuilding is a joke. I did my first show in 2020 natural, and I wasn’t even peeled at 148lbs and 5’7. If I was peeled I’m sure I would’ve been maybe 140.
Just the way it is. There’s nothing ‘natural’ about bodybuilding. Natural bodybuilding is an oxymoron lmao
Like many have said, I am sure we all know a guy who was on grams of stuff and looked like shit.
We also know dudes who were natural, and looked better than the dude waddling around the gym flaunting GASP apparel
Drugs push your physique to otherwise impossible standards. But without proper training, sleep, hydration, and nutrition, it doesn’t really matter what drugs you’re on .
Genetics are the biggest factor. I know people personally who have made strides in their physique AFTER they reduced their drug load. They fixed their training and diet. These are people who are competitive bodybuilders
All factors of bodybuilding are importsnt. Steroids play a necessary role, but they are not 90%. Each aspect of bodybuilding is vital, really.
But to your point, yes natural bodybuilding is a joke. I did my first show in 2020 natural, and I wasn’t even peeled at 148lbs and 5’7. If I was peeled I’m sure I would’ve been maybe 140.
Just the way it is. There’s nothing ‘natural’ about bodybuilding. Natural bodybuilding is an oxymoron lmao
Andrewthatguy
Member
Look this isn’t personal at all. Something I noticed about lots of natural bodybuilders that decide to step on stage is that they do that waaaaaayyyyyy too early. Again, when it comes to how much lean muscle mass your body can carry, that has nothing to do with genetics.
Plenty of naturals can get to 170-180 lean, even with sub par genetics. Genetics have way more to do with the look and insertions than how much muscle mass you can carry on your body.
Duck Dodgers
New Member
I’m sure I could’ve, but honestly yeah fuck that lmao. I definitely did it to get my feet wet, kind of thing. So I sure do agree
At 5'7 stage lean 170-180 is not happening naturally except in very extreme circumstances. Philip Ricardo Jr WON his last Natural Mr. Olympia at 5'9 175. Now can natty look halfway decent at 5'9 175, sure but he is going to have to do lighting tricks etc to look ripped IME.
Andrewthatguy
Member
Yeah I agree, but stage lean at weights between 135-145, shit even 150, you shouldn’t even be competing at that point. Me personally, if I’m going to compete, I’m going to compete to win, and do everything in my power to win.
That's an interesting perspective but eventually people have to start competing if that's what they want to do. I think you may be a bit mistaken if you think some people who are competing are EVER going to compete at more than 150 naturally given their heights. Many people don't just live in a dungeon and then show up 15 years later and blow everyone away day 1 show. If you saw a 5'7 natty who had great conditioning and good shape you would probably be blown away at how he looked at 145-150.
There are novice categories, true novice categories etc. Even if you have been to a local NPC show, if this is truly your viewpoint, you'd be shocked at some of the guys who show up. Bodybuilding is such a weird and niche sport that so few people even show up and even fewer are apparently what you would deem worthy of competing.
Andrewthatguy
Member
I’ve seen plenty of people that show up, and most of them don’t belong on stage. Nothing about bodybuilding is an instant gratification kind of thing, not the muscle building, not gaining strength. None of it. This is a long game, and stepping on stage early, shows a lack of patience, I’ve seen natties at the weights you’re mentioning, and most of them are small, and not that impressive. Obviously there will be outliers.
Sure some people are cool with losing maybe, I’ve never been cool with being a loser, and never will. I’ve seen lots of people on stage that genuinely don’t belong there, no matter the category. Natural competitions are actually even more hardcore than enhanced, you have to get to 5-6 body naturally, and everyone that talks about it has said it’s not too fun.
Idk I guess you have your own perspective, but I believe in stay down until you’re up. And I believe in being in it to win it. I don’t do gear to look average, I do gear so I can look better than every single person in the gym, and eventually do the same on stage and get that 1st place. This shits about discipline and long game that’s what bodybuilding is at its core. Hopping on stage early shows a lack of both.
monster8912
Member
Absolute cope. Training intensity, diet and genetics play the biggest role. Get that dialed then the peds shine. Ive looked great natty and plenty of other people do too.
Elektrobot
Member
If you think drugs are 90% of it, you are doing 90% of things wrong....
Andrewthatguy
Member
This thinking drives me fucking nuts. My brain can’t comprehend how people come to this conclusion, other than they don’t know shit about how building muscle works.
Mfras
Member
Everybody is so different and I don’t know what percentage of folks here are actually competitive bodybuilders vs gym bros vs dabblers with a smattering of people that have no business playing in this sandbox (I’m close to that one, but more like a fat old dude who more recently became a gym bro)
I don’t need peds at all but they sure speed things along here & there. To be a competitive bodybuilder most people are gonna need some help. The biggest problem I see is people that aren’t going to be exploiting an ‘on cycle’ look for an onstage peak day. There are too many people that think the water and glycogen you get when on cycle are actually muscle- no the muscle is what you get to keep after consolidating your on cycle gains and the water is long gone.
Staying on cycle for longer than the gains come easy is somewhere between not aligned with my goals and generally retarded, but if you love chasing that look and tolerate the risk & damage do you I’m not here to judge and certainly don’t have a top physique.
I don’t need peds at all but they sure speed things along here & there. To be a competitive bodybuilder most people are gonna need some help. The biggest problem I see is people that aren’t going to be exploiting an ‘on cycle’ look for an onstage peak day. There are too many people that think the water and glycogen you get when on cycle are actually muscle- no the muscle is what you get to keep after consolidating your on cycle gains and the water is long gone.
Staying on cycle for longer than the gains come easy is somewhere between not aligned with my goals and generally retarded, but if you love chasing that look and tolerate the risk & damage do you I’m not here to judge and certainly don’t have a top physique.
thejumpingsheep
Member
Hate to be that guy... but why do you need to get on stage again? Seems to me that the gear reliance becomes moot if you dont bother with the "stage" element.
Also I think you guys greatly discount injury. In my experience in other sports like basketball or baseball, what holds people back the most, is injuries. Today, I am on gear and im still 2/3 what I was as a natty. Wont even touch basketball performance... I might as well be a high schooler. Probably not even that good any more. I also came to realize that I can barely throw the baseball like a 12 year old now (lol). Ok maybe 14... unless I want to be in a world of pain for a 2 weeks that is.
Also I think you guys greatly discount injury. In my experience in other sports like basketball or baseball, what holds people back the most, is injuries. Today, I am on gear and im still 2/3 what I was as a natty. Wont even touch basketball performance... I might as well be a high schooler. Probably not even that good any more. I also came to realize that I can barely throw the baseball like a 12 year old now (lol). Ok maybe 14... unless I want to be in a world of pain for a 2 weeks that is.
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