Advice Needed: Complete shutdown from SARMs

[Outbak]

Hi all, been lurking here for a bit but now I need to ask some advice. I'm a 30 year old male, I've been running various SARMs off and on for 3 cycles total now, first was S4 only, 8 years ago, then at the beginning of this year I took RAD, LGD, and Ostarine in high doses all together (I know, I'm stupid). I had really bad low test symptoms for months after the last cycle and lost much of my gains. Like many I had been led to believe that SARMs don't really need a PCT so I just toughed it out at first and finally added Clomid but it was too late to help much.. so I decided I'd do it correctly this time, do my research, don't stack as much, keep my doses lower and get blood work pre, mid, and post cycle with PCT on hand ahead of time. I began taking 20mg of RAD-140 and just 2mg of LGD-4033 daily.

Well my results have been great this time around, I lost a few pounds of fat and gained a few pounds of muscle while in a deficit, so I've been seriously considering trying a real test E cycle next, sourced from a trusted member from here on Meso. WELL, I just got my mid-cycle blood test results back and holy fuck.. now I'm doubting if I should be messing with PED's at all.

Here are my pre cycle numbers:
Testosterone, total, MS: 676
Testosterone, free: 75.7
Estradiol (standard): 22
LH: 3.0
FSH: 3.9

And here are my new results, taken just FIVE WEEKS after the first test:
Testosterone, total, MS: 36 <------ WTF?!
Testosterone, free: 9.1
Estradiol (ultrasensitive LC/MS): 4
LH: 1.4
FSH: 1.9

I have ceased taking the SARMs and am already taking a proper Nolva+Clomid PCT, so no worries there.

But that seems like a fucking insane degree of HPTA shutdown for only 5 weeks at those doses.. Before anyone says "it's probably fake/prohormones blah blah" these substances were sourced from Science.bio which is a well trusted source that provides up to date lab test results for all of their products.

SO, my question to you guys is this.. if I were to try taking actual testosterone enanthate for 8 weeks, would that make me a total idiot just playing with fire, or would it possibly be a bit safer? Do you think that this level of shutdown is still totally recoverable and/or "worth it"? I've been hoping that when taking actual test and with a proper PCT immediately after, that my levels wouldn't actually get as low as they are now (or at least not for long), but I don't know shit which is why I'm asking here. I keep hearing people suggest taking a test base with their SARMs because of this risk of suppression, so that makes me think that test is somehow better/safer/more easily recoverable in this regard.. Is it super risky to let your test/estradiol levels get this low even if just briefly? I was already about to pull the trigger and order some test E just a week ago and now I'm looking for input as to whether or not it's safe or worth it considering how hard I've been shut down from just taking SARMs for 5 weeks. Any input is greatly appreciated

-Outbak

P.S. Sorry for the long-winded post

 

[Outbak]

I wanted to simplify the above post but can't figure out how to edit it, so here's a TL;DR:

I've been interested in taking testosterone enanthate. Is it dangerous to attempt considering the level of shutdown I experienced from RAD + low dose LGD (36 ng/dL), or is it actually safer? Bonus question: Are test levels this low actually "dangerous" or risking a permanent shutdown, considering a proper PCT plan is followed?

 

[alteredego]

5 weeks for a SARM run is on track, usually that 4 week mark is when the shutdown is full force.
By the time the T kicks in, you will be at the end of your 8 week SARM run. The exogenous T will further shut you down. I would only take it if I felt like complete shit from low T symptoms. You could try taking DHEA if you feel low E symptoms.

Permanent shutdown, no. Your HPTA is still pumping LH and FSH so that is good, they just need to get signaled to make more, so not a restart situation. Proper PCT and you should be G2G.

Next SARMs cycle, get started on the T base in advance of the shutdown.

 

[Youngrobert1]

Peds that attach to the androgen receptor will shut you down. Your body is smart and recognizes it doesnt need any more androgens bc it has plenty, so it doesn't make any more.
Always expect shut down when running aas or sarms. You should be shut down on cycle and however long you are shut down is going to extend the time it takes you to recover.
Test e is much safer than sarms.
Thats why so many doctors can write scripts for testosterone but can not write scripts for sarms. There is tons of medical literature on testosterone and some other anabolics but only recent literature on sarms. This is because they are new and none of them have become prescription drugs
There are a lot of risks with either but shutdown is more of a given. Only you can make that decision. Research and become better informed so whatever goes wrong you can take responsibility for it and not have to blame the people on the internet

 

[SUGARBEAR]

HCG, HCG, HCG!!!

 

[Jurgen]

You are already shutdown, but in your case seems your balls are what are still shut down as your lh and fsh are increasing. You basically have two choices from here you do a full pct hcg for at least two weeks probably 500-1000iu eod for two weeks to get your nuts working again then clomid/nolva for 2-4 weeks after the hcg 50/20 for 4 weeks would probably be plenty or even 25/20 clomid/nolva conservatively.
Option two go ahead with the test cycle and just pct after that since you are already shut down.

 

[Theworm]

You are already shutdown, but in your case seems your balls are what are still shut down as your lh and fsh are increasing. You basically have two choices from here you do a full pct hcg for at least two weeks probably 500-1000iu eod for two weeks to get your nuts working again then clomid/nolva for 2-4 weeks after the hcg 50/20 for 4 weeks would probably be plenty or even 25/20 clomid/nolva conservatively.
Option two go ahead with the test cycle and just pct after that since you are already shut down.

Or better yet, get in trt and blast and cruise like the rest of us!
Semi joking

 

[Outbak]

5 weeks for a SARM run is on track, usually that 4 week mark is when the shutdown is full force.
By the time the T kicks in, you will be at the end of your 8 week SARM run. The exogenous T will further shut you down. I would only take it if I felt like complete shit from low T symptoms. You could try taking DHEA if you feel low E symptoms.

Permanent shutdown, no. Your HPTA is still pumping LH and FSH so that is good, they just need to get signaled to make more, so not a restart situation. Proper PCT and you should be G2G.

Next SARMs cycle, get started on the T base in advance of the shutdown.

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it man. So then numbers this low aren't anything to freak out about yet

I expected suppression, it was just more than I anticipated. I've only heard of total test numbers in the 20's-30's from serious steroid cycles so I kinda got paranoid that I'm fucking my HPTA real hard. Also I've seen guys posting numbers after an 8 week cycle in the 200's or higher range so it was a bit concerning that I'd get basically shut down halfway through the cycle.

So to make sure I'm understanding, you would personally take a test base weeks 4-8 or 5-8 only if I'm feeling hardcore low T symptoms so that I can make it through the cycle comfortably, and then come off the test at the end of cycle (week 8-12) and begin PCT? Also, when you say "test base" in this regard are you only referring to plain un-esthered testosterone or would test enanthate work? I know test base is sometimes used to describe short acting test with no esther. Thanks again

 

[Outbak]

Peds that attach to the androgen receptor will shut you down. Your body is smart and recognizes it doesnt need any more androgens bc it has plenty, so it doesn't make any more.
Always expect shut down when running aas or sarms. You should be shut down on cycle and however long you are shut down is going to extend the time it takes you to recover.
Test e is much safer than sarms.
Thats why so many doctors can write scripts for testosterone but can not write scripts for sarms. There is tons of medical literature on testosterone and some other anabolics but only recent literature on sarms. This is because they are new and none of them have become prescription drugs
There are a lot of risks with either but shutdown is more of a given. Only you can make that decision. Research and become better informed so whatever goes wrong you can take responsibility for it and not have to blame the people on the internet

Awesome, thank you for the advice. I was expecting suppression but not near total shutdown halfway through the cycle so idk, just wanted to make sure I'm not doing permanent damage by attempting this. I'll do some more reading before I cycle anything again. Still very interested in real test but I'll make sure I know what I'm doing if I fuck with it.

 

[Youngrobert1]

Awesome, thank you for the advice. I was expecting suppression but not near total shutdown halfway through the cycle so idk, just wanted to make sure I'm not doing permanent damage by attempting this. I'll do some more reading before I cycle anything again. Still very interested in real test but I'll make sure I know what I'm doing if I fuck with it.

I will say it's easier to get things right, gains sides recovery shutdown whatever, with test. The only thing that is highly variable from person to person is how much estrogen you'll convert and how much of that it takes to cause a side effect.
Scratch that there's also maybe you will or wont get acne, maybe you'll lose hair, maybe you'll cholesterol or BP will get wildly fucked. Sarms can do all of that as well minus the estrogen

 

[Outbak]

You are already shutdown, but in your case seems your balls are what are still shut down as your lh and fsh are increasing. You basically have two choices from here you do a full pct hcg for at least two weeks probably 500-1000iu eod for two weeks to get your nuts working again then clomid/nolva for 2-4 weeks after the hcg 50/20 for 4 weeks would probably be plenty or even 25/20 clomid/nolva conservatively.
Option two go ahead with the test cycle and just pct after that since you are already shut down.

Just want to clarify, you say my LH and FSH are increasing but those numbers went down on my mid cycle bloods... I'm wondering if you read them wrong or if I'm misunderstanding what you mean? Do you possibly mean that my LH and FSH are still high enough that I should recover alright?

Also, I'm just curious how do you know my balls are the culprit here.. I was prepared to buy HCG with my Test E regardless, but I was just kinda hoping I wouldn't need it since the shit is mad expensive, so I'm curious how you know when you need the HCG. Don't want to need and not have it, nor do I want to use it if I don't need it. And yeah I know PED's are an expensive hobby and I need to get used to it lol.

Either way, thank you so much for your input, I appreciate it. I think I will just do it right with test E next time so that I'm not feeling like shit for 6-8 weeks, and I'll have HCG on hand as well just in case.. Unfortunately I couldn't get a hold of any in the next week or two so I'll be toughing it out with just Nolva and Clomid (weeks 1-2 40mg/50mg, weeks 3-4 20mg/25mg) for now. I really don't mind being shut down for a month or so after a good, productive cycle assuming there's no permanent damage, just don't want to be shut down *during* the cycle you know? It makes it kinda hard to get in the gym and get a good workout in if you're feeling lazy and tired, no aggression at all, etc. Thanks bud

 

[Outbak]

I'm

Or better yet, get in trt and blast and cruise like the rest of us!
Semi joking

Hey I'm half considering it lol. I don't mind the thought of having to pin for the rest of my life, I'm just worried about the cost, PCT shit gets real expensive. We'll see how a test cycle goes first

 

[Theworm]

I'm

Hey I'm half considering it lol. I don't mind the thought of having to pin for the rest of my life, I'm just worried about the cost, PCT shit gets real expensive. We'll see how a test cycle goes first

I’m on trt, about 100 mg a week, a vial of test from a us pharmacy costs me 36 dollars so if you do the math it’s about 94 dollars a year. Be careful with those trt clinics esp those with monthly fees... if you do it right it’s pretty cheap.
I’m 42, and just done with pct and feeling like shit for months, I have too much life to live without feeling like shit.

 

[Jurgen]

Usually when your pituitary is shut down your lh and fsh are much lower then that that’s what I meant they are increasing from what your numbers would be if you weren’t producing lh or fsh. 1.4 lh is almost in range and your fsh 1.9 IS in range that’s what is making me think your gonad axis is shut down and why hcg could help. But hcg is suppressive to lh production that’s why you would want to follow up with clomid/nolva AFTER hcg

 

[Outbak]

Usually when your pituitary is shut down your lh and fsh are much lower then that that’s what I meant they are increasing from what your numbers would be if you weren’t producing lh or fsh. 1.4 lh is almost in range and your fsh 1.9 IS in range that’s what is making me think your gonad axis is shut down and why hcg could help. But hcg is suppressive to lh production that’s why you would want to follow up with clomid/nolva AFTER hcg

Ok I see, thank you for clarifying! Alright that's good info, I have been googling on how to know when you need HCG and have just been finding the answer "if your balls shrink you should use it," but I can't fuckin tell if my balls are any smaller.. I don't exactly measure them lol. But this makes sense to me now.

Now I just need to search the forums for a good HCG source, I guess that's my next order of business. Appreciate your response bro

P.S. nice avatar

 

[Outbak]

Thanks for your help everyone, it's much appreciated.

Don't know if it's allowed in this subforum because I couldn't find any rules posted/stickied but if anyone wouldn't mind sharing their favorite HCG sources I'd be very grateful. Of course I can just search the SU forum, and I will, but there's so much to sift through there

 

[SUGARBEAR]

purplepandalabs
get hcg us domestic

 

[alteredego]

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it man. So then numbers this low aren't anything to freak out about yet

I expected suppression, it was just more than I anticipated. I've only heard of total test numbers in the 20's-30's from serious steroid cycles so I kinda got paranoid that I'm fucking my HPTA real hard. Also I've seen guys posting numbers after an 8 week cycle in the 200's or higher range so it was a bit concerning that I'd get basically shut down halfway through the cycle.

So to make sure I'm understanding, you would personally take a test base weeks 4-8 or 5-8 only if I'm feeling hardcore low T symptoms so that I can make it through the cycle comfortably, and then come off the test at the end of cycle (week 8-12) and begin PCT? Also, when you say "test base" in this regard are you only referring to plain un-esthered testosterone or would test enanthate work? I know test base is sometimes used to describe short acting test with no esther. Thanks again

I was meaning you should start your T enanthate base at the start of your SARM run next time.

If you haven't noticed whether your balls have shrunk or not, then they haven't. As your T is now in shutdown, the atrophy of the balls will come over the course of these coming weeks through the end of your cycle.
In the 3x 8 wk. SARM cycles I've ran (Osta & LGD, never RAD (yet)), I have not used a test base and have had ball shrinkage. Overall, I've felt fine all the way through PCT. The only thing I've noticed every time is that at about week 6 my libido is nil. This lasts a couple weeks into PCT.

For the HCG, I would say stick with 250 IU EOD as the gear protocol for it dictates. Hopefully, ending the cycle, it will return to normal function faster this way. However, LH and FSH may end up stopped because test levels are being brought up by HCG stimulation and the HPTA further reduced secretion trying to down regulate the T. Then you'd also need Nolvadex and/or Clomid protocol.

Personally, I wouldn't do shit until I felt low T. Even then, I'd push on unless it became too much at which time I'd stop the cycle and initiate PCT.

 

[Outbak]

purplepandalabs
get hcg us domestic

Thanks bud, I'll check em out

 

[Outbak]

I was meaning you should start your T enanthate base at the start of your SARM run next time.

If you haven't noticed whether your balls have shrunk or not, then they haven't. As your T is now in shutdown, the atrophy of the balls will come over the course of these coming weeks through the end of your cycle.
In the 3x 8 wk. SARM cycles I've ran (Osta & LGD, never RAD (yet)), I have not used a test base and have had ball shrinkage. Overall, I've felt fine all the way through PCT. The only thing I've noticed every time is that at about week 6 my libido is nil. This lasts a couple weeks into PCT.

For the HCG, I would say stick with 250 IU EOD as the gear protocol for it dictates. Hopefully, ending the cycle, it will return to normal function faster this way. However, LH and FSH may end up stopped because test levels are being brought up by HCG stimulation and the HPTA further reduced secretion trying to down regulate the T. Then you'd also need Nolvadex and/or Clomid protocol.

Personally, I wouldn't do shit until I felt low T. Even then, I'd push on unless it became too much at which time I'd stop the cycle and initiate PCT.

Man you're awesome, thank you for explaining things like that. I've done a shit ton of research in the last year but I have a lot to learn still, so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.

I'll save this info. Also, my libido is already coming back now just a little bit after only 3 days on Clomid/Nolva, and I've had two *crazy* intense and productive workouts back to back yesterday and today, I'm shocked. I didn't want to leave the gym today and previous days I could barely drag myself in there. My hormones must be bouncing back faster than I expected, so that's good. I really don't want to deal with that low energy, sleepy, lazy, limp dick feeling during my cycles in the future so I'll likely be researching some test E next time too.

(RAD is fucking amazing btw. I felt like a goddamn beast until my test/estrogen production all tanked, which happened way too fast. But I recommend it for sure if you're no stranger to being shutdown anyway. Feels much better than LGD/Osta imo!)

Thanks everyone,

-Outbak