Advice on bloodwork from power pct

[The Terminator]

Quick question for you @Old
Thoughts on low dose Aromasin during PCT.
I'm leaning towards it for HPTA stimulation.

My Ideal PCT
-Toremifene
weeks 1-4 60mg
weeks 5-6 30mg
-Clomid 200mg Front load
Weeks 1-2 100mg ED
weeks 2-4 50mg ED
-Aromasin 6.25mg (obviously dependant on bloodwork to ensure E doesnr get bottomed out.

Front load with HCG Immediatly after last injection.
Run HCG 500IU MWF until exogenous testosterone is cleared (2 weeks for Prop in my case)

I find this protocol to be effective, if a little bit aggresive.

Sorry to hijack your thread @ScruffMcBuff

At this stage, with my limited knowledge.
I would recommend looking into Toremifene.
It is much safer than Ckomid or Nolva as a SERM
it can be run for longer periods while still having a positive effect on HPTA stimulation.
Some anecdotal evidence has SUGGESTED it can maintain FSH and LH while taking compounds that suppress or shut down.

Because you were shut down for so long, you may need to go on a seriously long term treatment plan.
Nothing like this is cured overnight.. and of course your safety is #1

Also @The Terminator
If you wouldn't mind checking my protocol as well, I value your opinion as always.

Good luck OP, long road ahead of you my friend!

Looks fine to me, never tried toremifene personally but should replace tamoxifen just fine. Also I’m not a fan of front loading serms, or anything really, nor do I like taking >50mg clomid or >20mg tamoxifen. This is where I experienced some side effects, nothing crazy, just felt like I had prostate issues or something, like I felt there was pee pooled in my dick lol. Never experienced any “emotional” side effects, tbh I think that’s all nocebo, people believe it happens so it does happen etc. The only other thing is I did the same exact hCG scheduling except I did 1000iu, coulda got the same results with 500 but I never tried.

Anyway I don’t really think anything needs to be changed, especially if it’s worked for you in the past.

 

[ScruffMcBuff]

Looks fine to me, never tried toremifene personally but should replace tamoxifen just fine. Also I’m not a fan of front loading serms, or anything really, nor do I like taking >50mg clomid or >20mg tamoxifen. This is where I experienced some side effects, nothing crazy, just felt like I had prostate issues or something, like I felt there was pee pooled in my dick lol. Never experienced any “emotional” side effects, tbh I think that’s all nocebo, people believe it happens so it does happen etc. The only other thing is I did the same exact hCG scheduling except I did 1000iu, coulda got the same results with 500 but I never tried.

Anyway I don’t really think anything needs to be changed, especially if it’s worked for you in the past.

@Old Just placed an order and it ships monday so my plan is to do only hcg 1,000iu EOD for a month then re test to see where TT is and i’ll post the results.

 

[Old]

Looks fine to me, never tried toremifene personally but should replace tamoxifen just fine. Also I’m not a fan of front loading serms, or anything really, nor do I like taking >50mg clomid or >20mg tamoxifen. This is where I experienced some side effects, nothing crazy, just felt like I had prostate issues or something, like I felt there was pee pooled in my dick lol. Never experienced any “emotional” side effects, tbh I think that’s all nocebo, people believe it happens so it does happen etc. The only other thing is I did the same exact hCG scheduling except I did 1000iu, coulda got the same results with 500 but I never tried.

Anyway I don’t really think anything needs to be changed, especially if it’s worked for you in the past.

Personally I would never front-load any med I've never tried before. IMO that is a big problem with doctors ... they often start people on a 'standard' dose of some med, the person gets a bad reaction and becomes afraid of meds altogether. Even the choice of med. Take elevated prolactin, unless it is very high, cabergoline is too strong and also comes serious risks of interaction with serotonin meds. Whereas a simple dopamine agonist will address the problem.

The 1 day front-load of a SERM is mentioned (I think by Scally himself) in the forum (perhaps the long PCT thread). Along with needing T to be below 400 before starting (timing from end of cycle).

 

[Sworder]

The 1 day front-load of a SERM is mentioned (I think by Scally himself) in the forum (perhaps the long PCT thread). Along with needing T to be below 400 before starting (timing from end of cycle).

I know some frontloading threads!

Frontloading!

Frontloading SERMs

 

[Old]

@Old Just placed an order and it ships monday so my plan is to do only hcg 1,000iu EOD for a month then re test to see where TT is and i’ll post the results.

It will be interesting to see where T lands.

Do you have a link to either study? I had one where they gave men 10k or 15k per week for several months with no issues, can’t find it. These would help when I argue with people that mention the desensitization myth.

I'll try to find them. Used to save stuff on computer but ended up with hundreds of files to sort through. The 'desensitization' myth is a rodent study taken out of context (besides the fact the we are not rodents)

 

[Old]

Quick question for you @Old
Thoughts on low dose Aromasin during PCT.
I'm leaning towards it for HPTA stimulation.

My Ideal PCT
-Toremifene
weeks 1-4 60mg
weeks 5-6 30mg
-Clomid 200mg Front load
Weeks 1-2 100mg ED
weeks 2-4 50mg ED
-Aromasin 6.25mg (obviously dependant on bloodwork to ensure E doesnr get bottomed out.

Front load with HCG Immediatly after last injection.
Run HCG 500IU MWF until exogenous testosterone is cleared (2 weeks for Prop in my case)

I find this protocol to be effective, if a little bit aggresive.

Sorry to hijack your thread @ScruffMcBuff

At this stage, with my limited knowledge.
I would recommend looking into Toremifene.
It is much safer than Ckomid or Nolva as a SERM
it can be run for longer periods while still having a positive effect on HPTA stimulation.
Some anecdotal evidence has SUGGESTED it can maintain FSH and LH while taking compounds that suppress or shut down.

Because you were shut down for so long, you may need to go on a seriously long term treatment plan.
Nothing like this is cured overnight.. and of course your safety is #1

Also @The Terminator
If you wouldn't mind checking my protocol as well, I value your opinion as always.

Good luck OP, long road ahead of you my friend!

My only thought is that AIs were not used in the docs protocol. In principle it might be good, but he didn't mention using it and perhaps it is overkill. At somepoint you don't want to be overloading yourself with lots of meds to process. In the end, people have to use what works for themself.

 

[Old]

As far a using HCG, here is one case study with 3 months treatment https://pmj.bmj.com/content/postgradmedj/74/867/45.full.pdf

The doctor used 10,000 iu/wk for 1 month, then 5,000 iu/wk for 1 month, then 2,500 iu/wk for 1 month.

 

[ScruffMcBuff]

As far a using HCG, here is one case study with 3 months treatment https://pmj.bmj.com/content/postgradmedj/74/867/45.full.pdf

The doctor used 10,000 iu/wk for 1 month, then 5,000 iu/wk for 1 month, then 2,500 iu/wk for 1 month.

Thanks for your insight and i guess my last questions for you would be after i finish hcg and re test, what range TT should i be hoping for to know that everything’s running good? If it is a good number, do i still start the serms?

 

[Old]

Do you have a link to either study? I had one where they gave men 10k or 15k per week for several months with no issues, can’t find it. These would help when I argue with people that mention the desensitization myth.

Didn't find the 2 I had in mind but here are three worth noting. Usually, hcg is spoken in context of fertility rather than TRT

https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(06)04501-8/pdf

"Five thousand international units hCG was given IM three times per week with 150 IU hMG"
"The average duration of therapy was 25 months (range 6 to 144)."​

So you have 5000 iu 3 times per week up to 12 years !

Recovery of spermatogenesis following testosterone replacement therapy or anabolic-androgenic steroid use
See tables 1 and 2 for a whole range of dosing and use of AIs or SERMs as well

Indications for the use of human chorionic gonadotropic hormone for the management of infertility in hypogonadal men. - PubMed - NCBI
This one pertains to using hcg for fertility yet staying on testosterone replacement treatment.

As for the desensitization myth, 15,000 iu/wk for years didn't raise such an issue. So the usual 250-500 2-3x per week shouldn't either.

Thanks for your insight and i guess my last questions for you would be after i finish hcg and re test, what range TT should i be hoping for to know that everything’s running good? If it is a good number, do i still start the serms?

That is a good question. This might apply Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. - PubMed - NCBI

The reason I say 'might' is that they are measuring testosterone inside the testicle (via a needle ... ouch). But since 90+% of T is made by the testicles, the it isn't too much a leap to apply to serum T.

The studies baseline was 406 ng/dl. With 3 week treatment of either 125 iu, 250 iu, or 500 iu EOD. "Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group"

So that might suggest that if using 500 iu you might see above 500 TT.

The protocol summary you used mentions 400 ng/dl or higher as being best. Then start the SERM.

 

[Old]

Note on the Low-dose hcg study above. It says: "Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk."

So the test subjects were shutdown for the study with 200mg TC/wk. That is different than someone shutdown for ~6 years ... so you might expect lower.

 

[The Terminator]

Didn't find the 2 I had in mind but here are three worth noting. Usually, hcg is spoken in context of fertility rather than TRT

https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(06)04501-8/pdf

"Five thousand international units hCG was given IM three times per week with 150 IU hMG"
"The average duration of therapy was 25 months (range 6 to 144)."​

So you have 5000 iu 3 times per week up to 12 years !

Recovery of spermatogenesis following testosterone replacement therapy or anabolic-androgenic steroid use
See tables 1 and 2 for a whole range of dosing and use of AIs or SERMs as well

Indications for the use of human chorionic gonadotropic hormone for the management of infertility in hypogonadal men. - PubMed - NCBI
This one pertains to using hcg for fertility yet staying on testosterone replacement treatment.

As for the desensitization myth, 15,000 iu/wk for years didn't raise such an issue. So the usual 250-500 2-3x per week shouldn't either.



That is a good question. This might apply Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. - PubMed - NCBI

The reason I say 'might' is that they are measuring testosterone inside the testicle (via a needle ... ouch). But since 90+% of T is made by the testicles, the it isn't too much a leap to apply to serum T.

The studies baseline was 406 ng/dl. With 3 week treatment of either 125 iu, 250 iu, or 500 iu EOD. "Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group"

So that might suggest that if using 500 iu you might see above 500 TT.

The protocol summary you used mentions 400 ng/dl or higher as being best. Then start the SERM.

Thanks, I actually had those two, but the others you posted on the pyramiding doses and the low-dose study are definitely helpful and appreciated. I was actually looking for the pyramided dosing article cause I had it but didn’t save it and couldn’t find.

Personally I would never front-load any med I've never tried before. IMO that is a big problem with doctors ... they often start people on a 'standard' dose of some med, the person gets a bad reaction and becomes afraid of meds altogether. Even the choice of med. Take elevated prolactin, unless it is very high, cabergoline is too strong and also comes serious risks of interaction with serotonin meds. Whereas a simple dopamine agonist will address the problem.

The 1 day front-load of a SERM is mentioned (I think by Scally himself) in the forum (perhaps the long PCT thread). Along with needing T to be below 400 before starting (timing from end of cycle).

Yes you definitely want to be aquatinted with a med before front loading. A one day front-load isn’t so bad I just didn’t like clomid above 50mg or tamoxifen over 20-30 cause of some of the side effects, no emotional side effects ever. Interestingly I can take 50mg of clomid and 20mg of tamoxifen together with no issues but if I took 100mg or even 75mg of clomid I’d get a few negative side effects.

 

[Silentlemon1011]

Thanks, I actually had those two, but the others you posted on the pyramiding doses and the low-dose study are definitely helpful and appreciated. I was actually looking for the pyramided dosing article cause I had it but didn’t save it and couldn’t find.



Yes you definitely want to be aquatinted with a med before front loading. A one day front-load isn’t so bad I just didn’t like clomid above 50mg or tamoxifen over 20-30 cause of some of the side effects, no emotional side effects ever. Interestingly I can take 50mg of clomid and 20mg of tamoxifen together with no issues but if I took 100mg or even 75mg of clomid I’d get a few negative side effects.

I feel like absolute garbage with a 100mg Clomid frontload,
Its only for a week or so, then I bring it down to 50mg
Not an enjoyable week.

 

[Old]

I feel like absolute garbage with a 100mg Clomid frontload,
Its only for a week or so, then I bring it down to 50mg
Not an enjoyable week.

Not sure if you mean you feel bad for a week after frontloading clomid or you mean frontloading for 7 days.
So to clarify, the frontload is only 1 day not seven. The dose is 150-200mg. I'm a frontload chicken so only do 150mg.
Curious, do you feel different using tamoxifen?

 

[Silentlemon1011]

Not sure if you mean you feel bad for a week after frontloading clomid or you mean frontloading for 7 days.
So to clarify, the frontload is only 1 day not seven. The dose is 150-200mg. I'm a frontload chicken so only do 150mg.
Curious, do you feel different using tamoxifen?

I run 100mg for 7 days
If I were to frontload it would be around 300mg right?
I dont think I'll try that, maybe 200mg... even that is excessive IMHO lol.

Tamoxifen messes me up.
Lose libido etc, I'm not the only guy either... I know at least one guy on MESO that lost his libido from Nolva when using it as a mini PCT from a 6 week SARM run... sarms didnt kill his libido... the Tamox did... go figure eh?

 

[Old]

I run 100mg for 7 days
If I were to frontload it would be around 300mg right?
I dont think I'll try that, maybe 200mg... even that is excessive IMHO lol.

Tamoxifen messes me up.
Lose libido etc, I'm not the only guy either... I know at least one guy on MESO that lost his libido from Nolva when using it as a mini PCT from a 6 week SARM run... sarms didnt kill his libido... the Tamox did... go figure eh?

Tomoxifen at any dose kill erections and libido for many days. Clomid does not.
You should be fine with 1 day 150-200mg, then the next six weeks at just 50mg.

The concept of frontloading is to get to the 'steady-state' which was defined to my by a doctor as 5 1/2 doses. Don't know of anyone frontloading 5 1/2 doses however.

You can search 'Frontload' in the 'Steroid Articles' section for good info. Again, often it is more like 2-3 times the weekly dose for a long estered product.

IMO the reason for frontloading the SERM is to hit the hypothalamus with a very quick change. The brain responds largely to change - it thrives on it. With TRT/AAS a person has for weeks/months/years 'trained' their hypothalamus to be used to high androgens and high estrogen (if not using an AI). It isn't going to suddenly change to moderate stimulation. That is way 'natural' recovery can take many months, years, or if at all. But PCT punches a large, sudden change to stimulate (motivate) the hypothalamus to respond rather than ignore.

 

[ScruffMcBuff]

Tomoxifen at any dose kill erections and libido for many days. Clomid does not.
You should be fine with 1 day 150-200mg, then the next six weeks at just 50mg.

The concept of frontloading is to get to the 'steady-state' which was defined to my by a doctor as 5 1/2 doses. Don't know of anyone frontloading 5 1/2 doses however.

You can search 'Frontload' in the 'Steroid Articles' section for good info. Again, often it is more like 2-3 times the weekly dose for a long estered product.

IMO the reason for frontloading the SERM is to hit the hypothalamus with a very quick change. The brain responds largely to change - it thrives on it. With TRT/AAS a person has for weeks/months/years 'trained' their hypothalamus to be used to high androgens and high estrogen (if not using an AI). It isn't going to suddenly change to moderate stimulation. That is way 'natural' recovery can take many months, years, or if at all. But PCT punches a large, sudden change to stimulate (motivate) the hypothalamus to respond rather than ignore.

My package just came in. Excellent t/a with this source. Starting my hcg routine on monday and will update in a month.

 

[ScruffMcBuff]

It will be interesting to see where T lands.


I'll try to find them. Used to save stuff on computer but ended up with hundreds of files to sort through. The 'desensitization' myth is a rodent study taken out of context (besides the fact the we are not rodents)

Just had my bloods drawn yesterday early morning. Noticed my ALT dropped some but my T barely increased. I’m starting to feel hopeless and not sure where to go from here. Any thoughts? is it the TRT life for me? Keep waiting it out? Constantly ordering more and more hcg has become so expensive just to see if it’ll help my T rise. I ran out of hcg again but still have Serms on hand. I’ve attached my bloods from yesterday and also a comparison photo of the one prior.

 

[ScruffMcBuff]

@Old I also noticed my LH increased.

 

[ScruffMcBuff]

@The Terminator if you could send your wisdom over it would be appreciate also. Definitely feeling hopeless right now but i must say i do feel a lot better than what i did when my TT was 90 and below. I wake up feeling ok but libido sucks and also don’t feel like i’m gaining anything at the gym. My weight remains stable throughout the weeks.

 

[The Terminator]

@The Terminator if you could send your wisdom over it would be appreciate also. Definitely feeling hopeless right now but i must say i do feel a lot better than what i did when my TT was 90 and below. I wake up feeling ok but libido sucks and also don’t feel like i’m gaining anything at the gym. My weight remains stable throughout the weeks.

How long were you on aas/trt again and what dose of hCG did you settle on? I’ve read a few cases where guys with severe suppression needed a massive dose, but it can also take time if you were on for a long time. Also are you using good hCG, like first is it passing pregnancy tests and is it from a reliable source? I’ve never tried ugl or “generic” and I’ve noticed that Indian pharma can be hit and miss on potency. Could try giving it more time, or if you have the $ try ovitrelle, recombinant hCG. More expensive but effective ime. Or if you’re doing a lower dose of hCG can try upping it for a bit and see if that makes a difference, it would if your balls atrophied and need more stimulation.

I wouldn’t lose hope, pct after long term use is hard and takes time.