Sworder
Member
Go back to first stage with hCG. If I understood this completely your tT was 91 when on HCG and that means your balls aren't responding.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Advice on bloodwork from power pct
- Thread starter ScruffMcBuff
- Start date
D
Deleted member 59947
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There is point in doing HCG while doing a SERM, as HCG is suppresive of LH and FSH.
The ideal option would have been to run HCG during your TRT. Was that the case all along that year?
If not, do HCG solo for a while to kick your nuts back in, then discontinue HCG and introduce Clomid
The ideal option would have been to run HCG during your TRT. Was that the case all along that year?
If not, do HCG solo for a while to kick your nuts back in, then discontinue HCG and introduce Clomid
It was not but i shall take it solo for awhile. Appreciate it
Update on my latest set of bloods i just took yesterday morning. I’ll post my prior from august and newest set together. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I’m assuming this is a good sign and to just wait this out for awhile to see where my levels go?
The Terminator
Well-known Member
This is on nothing or were you taking something like hCG or clomid? Definitely good either way
It’s been a little over a month on nothing. I ended up running out of both clomid and hcg.
Sworder
Member
Seems like your balls aren't responding properly.
Do you have anybody helping you with this or guiding you or are you using us as the main source?
I started following the “power pct” program on my own july 29. I took a set of bloods in august and then ran out of clomid and hcg last month. I just took my latest bloods yesterday morning.
Sworder
Member
Okay! By the looks of your labs I wouldn't think you are recovered. I think you should start back on square one.
Blast the hCG until you confirm with labs that your tT is at least 500ng/dl.
Then you move to step 2 after that.
IMO!
The Terminator
Well-known Member
Well that’s not bad for not a month after not ending pct properly since you stopped only because you ran out. Just do pct again and make sure you get enough stuff.
Old
New Member
First thing about your blood work is your ALT. Are you taking any meds or supplements right now? Antibiotic?
Second, while your T is only 237, both LH & FSH are not very 'stimulating' ... it looks like the testes aren't really being told to work hard. So, at least with one blood test, it seems more a hypothalamus issue rather than testes. The basic PCT is for this, whereas HCG is to get the balls working before trying to wake up the HPT response.
Read through the protocol again and you will see that it is best to front load SERM(s). Using HCG at the same time as SERM(s) is a mistake. It inteferes with getting the hypothalamus to begin working again ... in a crude sense it does the opposite of why one front loads in the first place - diluting the effect of taking a SERM.
So ... find out why ALT is so high and correct. Then you may wish to do PCT again but without HCG and with front-loading your SERM.
Really appreciate the feedback. I’ve had an MRI done almost a year ago on my pituitary which came back negative no issues. I’m not a heavy drinker nor do i drink often. the occasional beers does it for me. Is it true that working out heavy can elevate ALT levels? i’m not on any antibiotics either. I will be ordering more clomid/hcg and will follow your advice with front loading.
This is the protocol I was following by the way.
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Old
New Member
Why was a MRI done on your pituitary? Often that is for very high prolactin but, of course, there may be other reasons. Your June prolactin is elevated but not much. Loss of sleep and/or anxiety will do that but if persistent, a mild dopamine increasing med will fix. Cabergoline is used for very high prolactin but would be overkill in your case ... it would drop prolactin to <1. Carbadopa/Levodopa 25/100 (a Parkinson's med) would drop it to around 7 with just 1 pill a day. Same with 75mg Wellbutrin SR. Just depends how you feel on med and whether a doc will prescribe it. BTW, correcting prolactin will increase natural production of testosterone.
How long ago did you start 150mg TC? Was low T from AAS use? How low was it?
Interesting summery of Scully's protocol. Too bad it didn't clarify that part 1 is done and completed before part 2. Or perhaps you did it correctly and it wasn't clear in your first post.
There are variation of his protocol because people are different ... and the story gets spread around and embellished. Some hate tamoxifen whereas others hate clomid. You can work with just one. For example, if using clomid, more typically you would just need 150-200mg on day 1 then 50mg/day the next 6 weeks. To start with HCG is optional but makes sense for anyone on TRT for long time.
Exercise causes tissue damage which is reflected in AST, not ALT. ALT was slightly high before PCT but now has doubled - presumably your exercise has been consistent throughout. Stuff like tylenol will raise ALT. That is why I asked if you are taking any med or supplement. ALT should not be that high. Neither clomid or tamoxifen are likely drive it that high ... and besides, your blood test is weeks after the SERMS. Clomiphene Tamoxifen [ Although long term use of tamoxifen is associated with fatty liver disease Association between tamoxifen treatment and the development of different stages of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease among breast cancer patients - ScienceDirect ]
I do have sleep apnea and haven’t been getting that many hours sleep recently. I also have been taking aleve lately for pain in my tricep. I’ve been at this for almost two years and the Low T was definitely from AAS. Starting AAS back in 2013 with little to no knowledge and would do blasts with no pct in between.
My last cycle included tren Two summers ago now which I feel shut me down the hardest. I experienced severe symptoms of hypogonadism. I then went through several pcps and endos which I feel was a waste so i researched and started doing self trt.
I didn’t want to continue to do self trt for the costs and the fact of having to pin for life so I wanted to try this power pct to see if there’s any chance I could bounce back at all.
@Old What would you recommend as far as a protocol with the serms before hcg. I’m looking to order asap as i’m all out.
Old
New Member
Liver toxicity from Aleve is not common but does happen. Since it is the only thing you are taking, suggest stopping and see if ALT gets better. https://livertox.nlm.nih.gov/Naproxen.htm (Naproxen)
Was it the endo that ordered the MRI? What did they say to do about the slightly elevated prolactin? Guess the question is how many hours of sleep were you getting when you June bloodwork was run ? ... yea, I know, how does one remember that, lol.
The protocol you posted mentions achieving a T above 400 ng/dl to know if HCG worked. But since you didn't get a blood test based solely on HCG treatment, we don't know.
Since you were shutdown 6 years, it might be a good to first work with HCG a few weeks then get a T test run. (give you time to recheck ALT too). Although your post mentions 15 days, I've read longer. As far as safety, there is a study with 500 iu 3x/wk for 10 years. Another one with 5000 iu/wk for a year. Neither showed problems.
Here are a couple links on the forum
With the first, Dr Scally mentions 2000 iu, 10 shots (so 2 weeks). Also notice the amount of tamoxefen is lower than most use.
While I would not stand ground arguing against it, I personally would use the HCG longer. For that matter, how long does it take semi-atrophied balls to snap back to life? It depends on the individual. Some guys father kids on TRT but most are sterile. You've already got over 200 which is low but better than 91.
Since the studies using 5000 iu/wk for a year showed a increase over months, maybe expect your testes will also increase slowly under the influence of HCG. Give it 4 to 6 weeks, get a T level. If you are in more in a hurry, test at 2 weeks (after all the doc has lots of experience). If still below 400, do it again ... but given you are getting 237 with LH of 2, things seem to be improving.
Once you get that part working, then back to a SERM. Again people have their own reactions of clomid vs tamoxefen. Some complain clomid makes them too emotional. For me, tamoxefen at any dose kills libido and erections for many days. So I would do 200mg clomid on the first day, then 50mg/day for 6 weeks. Then wait a couple weeks for it to get out of your system and HPT to normalize and do a blood test.
You took both SERMs last time. How did you feel taking them? If you felt fine perhaps do both again.
Awesome and thanks for the detailed reply. The endo wanted to rule out any pituitary issues so he ordered the MRI. I don’t recall his response to the prolactin but he did want me to wait another month to see him again so i ended up going to a different endo.
Her response was to give me caber for the prolactin but for some reason i denied it i’m not sure why. She also wanted me to wait another two months before seeing her again and that’s what made me start self trt. I’ve been getting about 5 sometimes 6 hrs of sleep lately.
I’ll stick with hcg only for a month then re test and post results. Do you think my levels would increase at all without taking anything from here on out? Also, i felt fine taking both SERMs. How much hcg would i need to order for a month? The last order i placed it came in an ampule of 5,000iu.
The Terminator
Well-known Member
Do you have a link to either study? I had one where they gave men 10k or 15k per week for several months with no issues, can’t find it. These would help when I argue with people that mention the desensitization myth.
Quick question for you @Old
Thoughts on low dose Aromasin during PCT.
I'm leaning towards it for HPTA stimulation.
My Ideal PCT
-Toremifene
weeks 1-4 60mg
weeks 5-6 30mg
-Clomid 200mg Front load
Weeks 1-2 100mg ED
weeks 2-4 50mg ED
-Aromasin 6.25mg (obviously dependant on bloodwork to ensure E doesnr get bottomed out.
Front load with HCG Immediatly after last injection.
Run HCG 500IU MWF until exogenous testosterone is cleared (2 weeks for Prop in my case)
I find this protocol to be effective, if a little bit aggresive.
Sorry to hijack your thread @ScruffMcBuff
At this stage, with my limited knowledge.
I would recommend looking into Toremifene.
It is much safer than Ckomid or Nolva as a SERM
it can be run for longer periods while still having a positive effect on HPTA stimulation.
Some anecdotal evidence has SUGGESTED it can maintain FSH and LH while taking compounds that suppress or shut down.
Because you were shut down for so long, you may need to go on a seriously long term treatment plan.
Nothing like this is cured overnight.. and of course your safety is #1
Also @The Terminator
If you wouldn't mind checking my protocol as well, I value your opinion as always.
Good luck OP, long road ahead of you my friend!
