anavar and clomid pct ???????

[Blacken]

Don't do Var do Halo with PCT. (joking)

I don't know what studies you are reading but it doesn't make sense. I think you are looking to read what you want to read so you can justify doing something not so bright for a little extra muscle.

 

[Dr JIM]

GMAFB

Do some basic reading.

Oh come on Doc let these guys DREAM for a bit

 

[Dr JIM]

Sorry I have a question here. I know proviron has anit-estrogen effect, and to some degree, it could negate the need for a traditional anti-estrogen. So does it also suppress testosterone production? Couldn't it be helpful in a PCT?

The "anti-estrogenic" effect of Proviron is more bro science than anything else.

Have you investigated this claim for supportive evidence?

I doubt it bc, if the effects of Proviron as an anti-E-2 agent were significant it would be classified as an antiestrogenic drug rather than an ANABOLIC STEROID, and perhaps would have undergone studies to determine its efficacy as an effective form of therapy for breast CA patients.

The effects of Proviron are primarily mediated thru altering the affinity of androgens and/or E-2 to SHBG. The net result is very short lived with androgens being displaced into serum in exchange for estrogens, primarily E-2.

Although such changes CAN result in considerable changes in vitro the effect is absolutely PALTRY in vivo with a FIVE LITER volume of distribution.

Finally even PROVIRON suppresses LH/FSH secretion in spite on its pathetic anabolic capabilities.

As Dr Scally has mentioned the PRIMARY REASON many AAS users "fail PCT" is the continued use of AAS during SERM therapy.

The reason is often overlooked, bc of the emphasis placed on modulating (blocking) the effects of EDTROGEN on the HTPA, but the presence of ANDROGENS and ALL AAS can also markedly suppress gonadotropin secretion.

To that end MANY BB have attempted to cheat those physiologic processes responsible for a "loss of gains" during PCT but the continued use of AAS will only delay HTPA recovery.

What does all this mean? You want to keep all those gains then you must continue to use those substances required for their acquisition, namely AAS.

Want proof ask ANY professional BB.

 

[Sully9999]

From what I understand var can be used as a bridge from cycle to cycle. As far as it being suppressive, I wouldn't think that it would work very well if it didn't suppress the hpta. I have never had much luck retaining my gains even with a quality pct. The concept of bridging with var is very appealing to me.

 

[Dr JIM]

"Bridging" is just another form of "cruising" both of which disable HTPA recovery.

 

[viking23]

I know some guys will use var (instead of short esters) when coming off a long ester to help minimize the loss of gains while test slowly drops to a point were pct meds can be used properly.

However what if they extended the var use an extra few weeks so the long esters were cleared for a while? I understand the system will still be suppressed by the var, but would it start to produce some of the natural test so that it isn't completely shut down? Would that make recovery easier? Is a daily low dose of var strong enough to maintain majority of gains (from a moderate cycle) until the start of pct? I assume not but had to ask.

 

[Dr JIM]

I have never had much luck retaining my gains even with a quality pct.

You want to keep ALL those gains then you must continue to use those substances responsible, namely AAS.

Want proof ask ANY professional BB.

Sorry fella but it is what it is !

That being said losses can be DIMINISHED thru several means namely;

- Continue to exercise at a high end

- The maintenance of a positive nitrogen balance via high protein diets

- The use of LEGIT GH (and perhaps PEPs) during the HTPA recovery interval

- shortening the next cycle/ PCT waiting interval as much as possible

 

[Sully9999]

My problem like many others I assume is that once aas is discontinued my ability to make it through my normal routine in the gym is nearly impossible. I am tired all the time,my strength and size diminish quickly. I no longer have a decent appetite etc. I am 42 years old, the gains come much harder than they did when I was younger. I'm thinking at this point maybe I would benefit greater from trt than from cycling any longer.

 

[Dr JIM]

What you think you're the first 42 year old I've heard that from, lol.

There are risks associated with "TRT" and they certainly exceed natural hormonal production.

Is that risk worth the benefit, only you can decide, as a well INFORMED adult.

 

[Sully9999]

Yes, I understand the risks. I'm sure many doctors would say it's all part of the normal aging process. That's what my primary says. I don't want to end up looking like a bag of bones. If that means I will live a shorter life span, then so be it.

 

[Dr JIM]

Yes, I understand the risks. I'm sure many doctors would say it's all part of the normal aging process. That's what my primary says. I don't want to end up looking like a bag of bones. If that means I will live a shorter life span, then so be it.

Reality check mate, we all end up as a "bag of bones" eventually.

 

[Sully9999]

Reality check mate, we all end up as a "bag of bones" eventually.

I'm thinking of what my father looked like when he was in his 70's. He smoked a pack a day, never exercised, no diet and he still lived to be 84. You are correct though, we all end up a bag of bones. I would prefer to be dead & buried when that happens.

 

[Dr JIM]

Well then I hope you inherited your fathers genes mate

Then again have you ever wondered how much longer, more "productive" or enjoyable his life could of been had he not smoked, exercised regularly and followed a reasonable diet?

I'm not passing judgment at all, but it's food for thought IME.

 

[Dr JIM]

I know some guys will use var (instead of short esters) when coming off a long ester to help minimize the loss of gains while test slowly drops to a point were pct meds can be used properly.

However what if they extended the var use an extra few weeks so the long esters were cleared for a while? I understand the system will still be suppressed by the var, but would it start to produce some of the natural test so that it isn't completely shut down? Would that make recovery easier? Is a daily low dose of var strong enough to maintain majority of gains (from a moderate cycle) until the start of pct? I assume not but had to ask.

What your suggesting is representative of how the approach to PCT has morphed over the years for example;

- The earlier approach involved DOSE TAPERING

-- Thereafter, DOSE TAPERING was deleted and substituted by "auto tapering". The latter was accomplished thru the use of AAS that were attached to esters that prolonged the overall HALF LIFE

--- More recently the emphasis has been to use shorter half life AAS-ester combinations, especially towards the end of a cycle

---- Perhaps we've now come full circle with the notion oral agents are best suited for the end of a cycle (instead of the beginning as a "kick start") taking advantage of their brief (less than ONE DAY) half life.

There are many ways to skin this pre-PCT cat, each with their own pros and cons IMO

JIM

 

[Sully9999]

Well then I hope you inherited your fathers genes mate

Then again have you ever wondered how much longer, more "productive" or enjoyable his life could of been had he not smoked, exercised regularly and followed a reasonable diet?

I'm not passing judgment at all, but it's food for thought IME.

Of course I've wondered how long he would have lived had he not smoked or chosen the lifestyle that he lived. However, I also witnessed his life in his late 70's & 80's and realized then that I had no desire to live to be that age anyway. It really is sad to out live all your friends, your wife and even some children.

 

[Payne]

The "anti-estrogenic" effect of Proviron is more bro science than anything else.

Have you investigated this claim for supportive evidence?

I doubt it bc, if the effects of Proviron as an anti-E-2 agent were significant it would be classified as an antiestrogenic drug rather than an ANABOLIC STEROID, and perhaps would have undergone studies to determine its efficacy as an effective form of therapy for breast CA patients.

The effects of Proviron are primarily mediated thru altering the affinity of androgens and/or E-2 to SHBG. The net result is very short lived with androgens being displaced into serum in exchange for estrogens, primarily E-2.

Although such changes CAN result in considerable changes in vitro the effect is absolutely PALTRY in vivo with a FIVE LITER volume of distribution.

Finally even PROVIRON suppresses LH/FSH secretion in spite on its pathetic anabolic capabilities.

As Dr Scally has mentioned the PRIMARY REASON many AAS users "fail PCT" is the continued use of AAS during SERM therapy.

The reason is often overlooked, bc of the emphasis placed on modulating (blocking) the effects of EDTROGEN on the HTPA, but the presence of ANDROGENS and ALL AAS can also markedly suppress gonadotropin secretion.

To that end MANY BB have attempted to cheat those physiologic processes responsible for a "loss of gains" during PCT but the continued use of AAS will only delay HTPA recovery.

What does all this mean? You want to keep all those gains then you must continue to use those substances required for their acquisition, namely AAS.

Want proof ask ANY professional BB.

Thanks for your answer bro. I got the info of proviron from the steroid website. It does has anti-estrogen effect, but is not an AI. Not sure about the exact reason. But I finally know that when we use proviron on cycle, it can help prevent aromatase. In a PCT,it does no help in recovering the natural test level.

 

[viking23]

Proviron has very little anti-estro effect which is why Doc said its mostly bro science. So definitely don't count on it to prevent estrogen sides.

 

[Payne]

I also have a question. I just finished a cycle of 400mg test/wk. Can I do a pct with nolva, clomid, and a gram of test?

My thought process is that more test has to help boost my test...right?

You can take nolva or clomid as a PCT, but quit the test. TakingAAS,the elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is
suppressed, and the purpose of PCT is to increase test production in your body. Include test in your PCT will continue surpress your endogenous test.

 

[Payne]

Proviron has very little anti-estro effect which is why Doc said its mostly bro science. So definitely don't count on it to prevent estrogen sides.

Alright, thanks bro.

 

[taco33150]

This is where using hcg helps start up of hpta? Correct? At what point would you want to start it and how long
Still learning