Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivity?

[Sworder]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

There is far more information to be gathered from that thread, sometimes Millard, Scally, and Bill Roberts can come together to assemble a thread that takes a month or two to understand.

I believe there to be a lot of factors which contribute to different results and if you look at it from solely AR sensitivity you are missing many other factors. Personally when cycling I believe that my gains slow down and my body develops a tolerance to the AAS stimulated growth. I think there are studies supporting the notion that a lot of receptors change sensitivity and if they don't I believe the body implements other ways to adapt to excessive stimulus. Most of my posts are speculation keep that in mind and it's just the way I have (mis)understood information or experiences.

In your case, why you lost muscle mass and developed bloat et cetera probably depends on different factors than the testosterone itself. Or maybe you were a at a higher than normal range and had more muscle than genetically supported and your body got rid of it because it causes too much stress. I really don't know and it's difficult to even speculate when you don't have a large amount of accurate information which no normal person would keep. Such as calorie intake and macros and detailed hormone panels, training program and intensity, other stresses such as girlfriend/wife problems which may increase catabolic responses. There is so much to it that you can not just blame the testosterone. Yes, some change happened to you. Basing it solely on the androgen receptor changing sensitivity is not accurate though. Just some ideas and I am happy to speculate more.

 

[Sworder]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

The title, "Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, NO Decreased sensitivity? Has nothing to do with downregulation. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. It doesn't correlate with real world results. I understand this, but sensitivity is an entirely different thing on its own. Downregulation would be a decrease in the number of androgen receptors as a result of an increase in androgens, you already know this. A decreased sensitivity would mean that there are the same amount of androgen receptors, but each becomes less sensitive rendering them essentially useless unless you stop all testosterone to regain sensitivity. Yes or no, do receptors lose sensitivity to testosterone specifically? This is only a matter of sensitivity, or let me put it this way, it'd be like insulin resistance..the cells are no longer able to respond to the normal actions of the hormone insulin. Can the same go for test?

Yes, receptor downregulation and sensitivity are different topics, but you included them both in the title which is why I responded to it. In that thread you will find both topics addressed as well. READ THE THREAD!

Do "receptors" lose sensitivity to testosterone?
What receptors? The AR? No.

Isn't insulin resistance the result of excessive stimulus? Do you believe that your body has to increase its insulin production more and more as you age to achieve the same result?

 

[m_ob]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

This thread, if you take the time to read and comprehend it will answer a lot of your questions: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134313630

"For a far shorter version: the studies you refer to show downregulation as androgen levels increase from zero up to normal.
It is true that the body responds to abnormally low androgen levels by increasing the number of androgen receptors: this effect is lost on restoring androgen levels.
That is a totally different matter than what happens when androgen levels are increased above normal."

-Bill Roberts in response to studies showing AR downregulation.

"Sinha-Hikim I, Taylor WE, Gonzalez-Cadavid NF, Zheng W, Bhasin S. Androgen Receptor in Human Skeletal Muscle and Cultured Muscle Satellite Cells: Up-Regulation by Androgen Treatment. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2004;89(10):5245-55. Androgen Receptor in Human Skeletal Muscle and Cultured Muscle Satellite Cells: Up-Regulation by Androgen Treatment

Androgens stimulate myogenesis, but we do not know what cell types within human skeletal muscle express the androgen receptor (AR) protein and are the target of androgen action. Because testosterone promotes the commitment of pluripotent, mesenchymal cells into myogenic lineage, we hypothesized that AR would be expressed in mesenchymal precursor cells in the skeletal muscle. AR expression was evaluated by immunohistochemical staining, confocal immunofluorescence, and immunoelectron microscopy in sections of vastus lateralis from healthy men before and after treatment with a supraphysiological dose of testosterone enanthate. Satellite cell cultures from human skeletal muscle were also tested for AR expression."

- A study posted by Scally

The title, "Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, NO ..Decreased sensitivity? Maybe? Has nothing to do with downregulation. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. It doesn't correlate with real world results. I understand this, but sensitivity is an entirely different thing on its own. Downregulation would be a decrease in the number of androgen receptors as a result of an increase in androgens, you already know this. A decreased sensitivity would mean that there are the same amount of androgen receptors, but each becomes less sensitive rendering them essentially useless unless you stop all testosterone to regain sensitivity. Yes or no, do receptors lose sensitivity to testosterone specifically? This is only a matter of sensitivity, or let me put it this way, it'd be like insulin resistance..the cells are no longer able to respond to the normal actions of the hormone insulin. Can the same go for test?

 

[Sworder]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

The title, "Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, NO ..Decreased sensitivity? Maybe? Has nothing to do with downregulation. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. It doesn't correlate with real world results. I understand this, but sensitivity is an entirely different thing on its own. Downregulation would be a decrease in the number of androgen receptors as a result of an increase in androgens, you already know this. A decreased sensitivity would mean that there are the same amount of androgen receptors, but each becomes less sensitive rendering them essentially useless unless you stop all testosterone to regain sensitivity. Yes or no, do receptors lose sensitivity to testosterone specifically? This is only a matter of sensitivity, or let me put it this way, it'd be like insulin resistance..the cells are no longer able to respond to the normal actions of the hormone insulin. Can the same go for test?

Double post, response is above!

 

[m_ob]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Yes, receptor downregulation and sensitivity are different topics, but you included them both in the title which is why I responded to it. In that thread you will find both topics addressed as well. READ THE THREAD!

Do "receptors" lose sensitivity to testosterone?
What receptors? The AR? No.

Isn't insulin resistance the result of excessive stimulus? Do you believe that your body has to increase its insulin production more and more as you age to achieve the same result?

Okay..sorry lol. Misunderstanding, and about the insulin, it was just sort of an example rather than me saying insulin resistance works through the same mechanisms. Its more of a, you get fat you lose sensitivity..which isn't the case for testosterone. Its not like you gain muscle you lose sensitivity.

If I'm talking mini-cycle levels, up in the 1,000's ng/dL, then can you honestly say the same? That the AR doesn't lose sensitivity to testosterone, no matter how much you have pumping through you..

 

[Sworder]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

"One really can't reason by 'typical receptor behavior.' Each type needs to be looked at individually." - Bill Roberts in the thread I posted...

A lot of your questions are preemptively answered in that thread if you care to read it anytime soon

 

[Sworder]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

If I'm talking mini-cycle levels, up in the 1,000's ng/dL, then can you honestly say the same? That the AR doesn't lose sensitivity to testosterone, no matter how much you have pumping through you..

If you are taking "mini-cycle" levels yes I would personally expect some kind of tolerance to be established. Let's say you had a functioning libido @ 100mg Test/week and then you go to 300mg Test/week. I would expect that once you go back down to 100mg/week there is going to be a period where your body adapts back to 100mg/week and your libido won't be on par. This adaption shows a sort of tolerance. I can not be specific enough to say what receptor is increasing/decreasing sensitivity, if it even is a receptor that is changing activation or of it is co-factors or anything really. It is just based on a generalization and just because you ask a very specific question if the AR acquires a sensitivity change doesn't mean you can interpret that to your whole body. This is my view please refute if you disagree.

 

[Dr JIM]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

Damn Sworder your on a roll but to "deep" for me mate.

 

[m_ob]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

If you are taking "mini-cycle" levels yes I would personally expect some kind of tolerance to be established. Let's say you had a functioning libido @ 100mg Test/week and then you go to 300mg Test/week. I would expect that once you go back down to 100mg/week there is going to be a period where your body adapts back to 100mg/week and your libido won't be on par. This adaption shows a sort of tolerance. I can not be specific enough to say what receptor is increasing/decreasing sensitivity, if it even is a receptor that is changing activation or of it is co-factors or anything really. It is just based on a generalization and just because you ask a very specific question if the AR acquires a sensitivity change doesn't mean you can interpret that to your whole body. This is my view please refute if you disagree.

You're waaaaaay to patient with me lol. I'm just a stupid youngin trying to take all of this in. Specifically what I'm talking about is gains, not libido seeing as that's fine on 200 mg. I've never been on this much before..meaning my tolerance should be lower I guess? And once you build that tolerance..say I make decent gains on 200 mg a week, do you maintain those gains so long as you remain on the 200 or do those gains slowly deteriorate? Basically, once you build that tolerance do you lose what you've gained or is that not how a tolerance for these types of hormones work?

 

[Sworder]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

You're waaaaaay to patient with me lol. I'm just a stupid youngin trying to take all of this in. Specifically what I'm talking about is gains, not libido seeing as that's fine on 200 mg. I've never been on this much before..meaning my tolerance should be lower I guess? And once you build that tolerance..say I make decent gains on 200 mg a week, do you maintain those gains so long as you remain on the 200 or do those gains slowly deteriorate? Basically, once you build that tolerance do you lose what you've gained or is that not how a tolerance for these types of hormones work?

I don't think you are understanding what I am stating about the tolerance and I don't know how to reword it.

To answer your specific questions: If you make decent gains on 200mg/week those gains will halt after a while and you will have to increase your dose to further gains. This doesn't include a tolerance to the testosterone though. If you continually stay on and continually increase your dose from 400 to 600 for 6wks to 1200 for 6wks to 1800mg for 6wks (Plan A) you will not make as good gains as if you would have done Plan B:
400mg testosterone/week 6weeks
4 week break cruise 200mg
600mg testosterone/week for 6weeks
4 week break cruise 200mg
1200mg testosterone/week 6 weeks
4 week break cruise 200mg
1800mg testosterone/week for 6 weeks

Your gains would be better with Plan B, and that fact shows a sort of "tolerance" to muscle growth. Not to testosterone itself, but to the hypertrophy. I am not saying your receptors are developing a tolerance, just that I believe a sort of tolerance to something is shown

You will not lose the gains you have made on 200mg/week if you continue on 200mg/week. They will not deteriorate and you don't have to increase your dose to maintain the same level. Maintaining and gaining isn't the same! This example was shown in the thread by Millard.

 

[m_ob]

Re: Androgen receptor down regulation or burnout, no such thing. Decreased sensitivit

I don't think you are understanding what I am stating about the tolerance and I don't know how to reword it.

To answer your specific questions: If you make decent gains on 200mg/week those gains will halt after a while and you will have to increase your dose to further gains. This doesn't include a tolerance to the testosterone though. If you continually stay on and continually increase your dose from 400 to 600 for 6wks to 1200 for 6wks to 1800mg for 6wks (Plan A) you will not make as good gains as if you would have done Plan B:
400mg testosterone/week 6weeks
4 week break cruise 200mg
600mg testosterone/week for 6weeks
4 week break cruise 200mg
1200mg testosterone/week 6 weeks
4 week break cruise 200mg
1800mg testosterone/week for 6 weeks

Your gains would be better with Plan B, and that fact shows a sort of "tolerance" to muscle growth. Not to testosterone itself, but to the hypertrophy. I am not saying your receptors are developing a tolerance, just that I believe a sort of tolerance to something is shown

You will not lose the gains you have made on 200mg/week if you continue on 200mg/week. They will not deteriorate and you don't have to increase your dose to maintain the same level. Maintaining and gaining isn't the same! This example was shown in the thread by Millard.

BOOM! That's all I needed to hear.