Anyone else come to the realization that the drugs are literally 90% of the equation and it bums you out?

[jtmarlin]

The longer I have been bodybuilding the sad truth just keeps being more and more realized and I will borrow a phrase from Derek at MPMD the the "drugs are the entire fucking cake... without them there is no cake."

I have tried to fool myself over the years that this training program vs that program was better for muscle gain or this style of eating vs that and in the end once you basically have a decent structure to your diet/training (ie: you aren't a moron) the entire equation is how big the dose is. There is literally no other real secret.

Getting lean is a bit of an art, but I just see some of these average Joes who are natty banging their heads againt the wall not really getting anywhere bc they can't grasp the concept that the entire fucking cake is the drugs. I was natty and to see my abs at 5'8 I had to weigh 145 pounds ad I was still probably 10 pounds from stage. Imagine getting on a bodybuilding stage at 5'8 135 and calling it bodybuilding it's insane. That was dieting down from 165.

I finally got onstage last year (after being on TRT for years and doing some small cycling here and there) and had some problems during prep but basically ran 20mg of Var in the beginning, 200mg of test PW all prep and 25mg of Winstrol the last 3 weeks and was 185 onstage. I started my prep at 191.

The drugs are literally the nearly entire equation and it's sad.

 

[Lokey]

Drugs and genetics, and genetic response to drugs. You can still look okay without good genes or drugs but will pale in comparison to somebody blessed with the genes and the willingness to pin. It is what it is, it's the fake natties that piss me off, sure, some people have good genetics and can build muscle by looking at a barbell but most of the people claiming to do so (and that anybody else could too, if they just work hard enough) are frauds.

 

[trtchin]

Genetics are playing a big role. And this is from someone with F tier

But even with lots of drugs some people still look like shit which proves that training and diet are still a huge part of it.

 

[BabaJagga]

2 things...
90% of regular male gym goers around here are on juice, or was and did pct. less than 10% look like they use drugs. without any training or diet structure, at least basic, they dont do much.

second thing is bellcurve. some of us are genetic freaks and look better natural than most guys enhanced. basicly very lean from the start, almost cant gain fat etc.
other extreme are people that dont respond too much to training and/or drugs.

sure, drugs work. but without genetics and at least semi decent training and eating its not gonna do much

 

[Slowww]

This is wrong imo. You can blast a ton of gear and have naturals out there that look better on stage. Gear is only going to push the limit if the rest is in order at a certain level, and it’s not going to fix holes in your program especially if they are serious. If you have lagging body parts more test isnt going to fix a shitty training program and will not address this issue. More gear is not going to make you stick to your diet all year and push it hard when you want to get shredded.

your example about getting lean is the worst possible example to make because you can get naturals on stage with striated glutes and dug out hams because they actually know how to properly diet and have good guidance and feedback. I have had natural friends get on stage drier and more conditioned than enhanced athletes without manipulating water at all and only taking a cialis before getting on stage. They just took much longer to prepare than most people think is necessary for w preparation period due to requiring a less aggressive deficit. Obviously they don’t win any overalls against guys on gear who have the same grit and good protocols (diet + training long term)

Program and diet can make a huge difference in what kind of progress, your balance and aesthetics. Thinking it’s just drugs is where you shit the bed everywhere else. My last off season i used used less insulin, less total anabolics, and gained more muscle in less time because diet was modified in terms of macro split (when adherence is always the same) and training protocol made improvements. You can drug yourself up more but that doesn’t make you a better body builder. Guys who put muscle in the right places, dont blow out their guts, and make consistent progress are at the end of the day going to be better body builders than a guy who is just throwing more gear at the wall. You do more gear and dont train a body part right (wrong frequency, maybe bad connection, maybe poor execution or exercise selection) and it isn’t going to be who does more drugs who wins, you will lose because you didn’t know how to train the body part right and have holes.

 

[cousinmuscles]

No. Any training program will work when someone is a beginner, even intermediate. Any AAS use with subpar training will work for a while just like those newbie gains did as a natural.

For my part, since I have been training for over two decades and using AAS for close to a decade, just one week of subpar training can set me back in my macrocycle and thus even set me back in my steroid cycle too. One week of shit diet or sleep too.

 

[Lokey]

IMO, if you have the genetics you can get pretty far without drugs. If you don't have the genetics, you can make up for it with drugs. If you don't have the genetics and don't take anything then no diet program or training stimulus is going to get you there. With good genes and/or drugs any half decent training will net you great results. Average genes and no drugs and you're SOL (for looking like a bodybuilder) no matter the diet/training.

 

[BP_6]

It is more depressing when you realize genetics are actually at the end of the day the single biggest factor. Since that can't be changed no matter what you do.

 

[jtmarlin]

2 things...
90% of regular male gym goers around here are on juice, or was and did pct. less than 10% look like they use drugs. without any training or diet structure, at least basic, they dont do much.

second thing is bellcurve. some of us are genetic freaks and look better natural than most guys enhanced. basicly very lean from the start, almost cant gain fat etc.
other extreme are people that dont respond too much to training and/or drugs.

sure, drugs work. but without genetics and at least semi decent training and eating its not gonna do much

Most guys who take steroids and look like shit are just too fat. If they got lean they'd probably look pretty good. Taking 600mg of test for 12 weeks and sitting on your ass will build more muscle than being natty and doing everything right.

Being lean is the key to looking good obviously. Being natty, lean and having any sort of muscle is not easy and being 5'8 and 140 pounds is just really a sad sad look as far as I am concerned (I have done it as I said above). Everyone thought I had cancer but when I was even lower bodyfat at 185 people couldn't stop touching me. I think I have just a bit better than average genetics as I was able to completely transform my body in a few months while only weighing 6 pounds less than my starting point on little anabolics.

I was thinking of this exercise moreso in comparison to oneself vs comparison to others.

 

[PenguinPiss]

i mostly disagree here, siding with @Slowww 's arguments. However, some people are in the mindset that if you spent money on gear and supplements, you better damn well put in the work so you ain't pissing that cash away. So, in that case,m the gear can be a bigger factor than the actual physiological one.

 

[HeatherSwanson]

I think its combo of all of it. Genes, diet, training, rest and supplements.
You're the average of your choices for the most part.
Trained for 20+ years now and I have a harder look that someone my age that's recently started the aas train, I'm sure someone reading this would know what im talking about.
My of my buddies is a responder, its wild watching him change. However it'll go away when he stops. I can take months off and hardly change at all.

 

[adrenalytic]

Yep, I'm in the "genetics matter more" camp. Here's a couple pics of me natty in April of 2025, the day before my first T injection. Only on HGH 2 IU/day for 4 months at age 46. I probably didn't need the drugs but I wanted them.

 

[shredded.lyfe]

Retarded take, get more structure in your training, I know its hard for bodybuilders to think beyond flat sets and 0rir but a whole world exists beyond training like a mongaloid.

 

[jtmarlin]

Retarded take, get more structure in your training, I know its hard for bodybuilders to think beyond flat sets and 0rir but a whole world exists beyond training like a mongaloid.

Do you really think this matters? Training is the least important variable IMO. The drugs and the diet are way more important assuming your baseline is just training hard enough.

 

[BigTomJ]

if you think drugs are 90% of the equation, then I know you've been majorly slacking on the other parts of the equation.

drugs matter, but they are just the icing.

 

[Lokey]

Do you really think this matters? Training is the least important variable IMO. The drugs and the diet are way more important assuming your baseline is just training hard enough.

I have to agree with you, I've seen some real dumbasses getting big due to good genes and/or drugs, the training/diet is secondary, it's a factor but eating enough and not training like a retard isn't rocket science (to be fair, take enough drugs and you can train like a retard too if you want to).

I also know people personally who haven't touched a barbell or anabolics in their lives but are absolute beasts.

If we're talking winning competitions then yes, diet & training really matters, it can be what makes the difference between competitors who are already genetically gifted and taking the right compounds, but to get big and lean drugs and genes are the determining factors.

(People don't like to admit this as they'd prefer to attribute their accomplishments to raw effort in the gym, they just happen to coincidentally be on tren).

 

[mikeh1998]

It's actually pretty comforting for me to think that drugs are the only thing that matters... Because that means I'm not too lazy/have bad genes.

All I need to do is find the next compound and pay a little bit of money for it to come in the mail. Or just up the dose of the drugs I'm currently using.

 

[Endeavor Fitness]

I going to say I disagree. Plenty of men and women who have built their bodies for decades as nattys, and pretty respectable bodies at that. Then hopped on gear, and took it to the next level. I think it comes down to training, diet, genetics, and hard work..

Drugs play at part, but if other factors are shitty, drugs won't turn you into a Mister O.

 

[xrayphoton13]

Do you really think this matters? Training is the least important variable IMO. The drugs and the diet are way more important assuming your baseline is just training hard enough.

Man I was just listening to someone say as they get older they come more and more to this realization and I can't remember who it was. Was it skip Hill? Damn I can't remember but the jist was that as long as the dose is high enough and diet is on point and you have decent genetics, any training will work to get you huge regardless of how optimized that training is

 

[Lokey]

Drugs play at part, but if other factors are shitty, drugs won't turn you into a Mister O.

I also agree with this, at the top of the game everything matters, but diet and training alone (or even drugs) wont turn you into Mister O either. That starts with the right genetics.