Aren't all religions the same? Is Christ the only way to God?

[Rod]

this is a compliment right rod?... i love you too bro.

You know I love you Chip. And reading your posts adds some humor to my otherwise intolerably boring days.

 

[CyniQ]

Just because the word Trinity is not found in the Bible does not mean that it does not exist. Using the Bible I will enlighten you on the doctrine of the Trinity. I do not have the time to do it know.

As I patiently await enlightenment (man I am one arrogant SOB ) I may as well throw out a couple of points I feel are contrary to the idea of a trinity or godhead.

Jesus never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way: not in power, not in knowledge, not in age. In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.

Time and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called Father. In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, You, the only true God. (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. (Subject to Translation) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.

 

[Rod]

Hmm. No. But I could loan you my Chronicles of Narnia if you wish.

CyniQ, thanks for the offer but I already have my own set. Believe it or I just finished reading them again. Damn, those are some good books, and Lewis' artistry in making subtle theological points accessible to children is amazing. Don't even get me started on the Chronicles of Narnia.

I think Lewis is the greatest apologist of the last century. I was looking for an online version of his Mere Christianity for quoting convience.

 

[Mark Kerr]

That's what I hate about formal logic. Technically(FL speaking), it is a sound argument, but it's really not. Or maybe it is. Now I rember why I hated that class.

What about

F
T
____
F or T?

Which would it be?

Let's say we have...

All Virgins suck dick because they won't have sex(False)

That girl is a virgin (True)

________________

That girl will suck your dick(I don't know, it depends on that particular vigrin)

What's the correct answer to that one?

Well, the answer is that girl will indeed suck dick. Why? Because the first premise states ALL VIRGINS SUCK DICK. Therefore, any girl that is a virgin will suck dick. It doesnt depend on that particular virgin, because as you stated, they ALL suck dick.

I like your example by the way

 

[garyzilla]

Trinity

The Trinity

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God. (See also, "Another Look at the Trinity")
Jesus, the Son, is one person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also divine in nature and is self aware, the third person of the Trinity.
There is, though, an apparent separation of some functions among the members of the Godhead. For example, the Father chooses who will be saved (Eph. 1:4); the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them, (Eph. 1:13).
A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a creation and the Holy Spirit is a force (Jehovah's Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father, became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son (where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (Oneness theology). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism).
The word "person" is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.
The chart below should help you to see how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture. The list is not exhaustive, only illustrative.
The first step is to establish the biblical doctrine that there is only one God. Then, you find that each of the persons is called God, each creates, each was involved in Jesus' resurrection, each indwells, etc. Therefore, God is one, but the one God is in three simultaneous persons. Please note that the idea of a composite unity is not a foreign concept to the Bible; after all, man and wife become are said to be one flesh. The idea of a composite unity of persons is spoken of by God in Genesis (Gen. 2:24).

There is only one God

The first step is to establish how many Gods exist: one! Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God, (Isaiah 55:5).

The Trinity


FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT
Called God Phil. 1:2 John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9 Acts 5:3-4
Creator Isaiah 64:8 John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17 Job 33:4, 26:13
Resurrects 1 Thess. 1:10 John 2:19, 10:17 Rom. 8:11
Indwells 2 Cor. 6:16 Col. 1:27 John 14:17
Everywhere 1 Kings 8:27 Matt. 28:20 Psalm 139:7-10
All knowing 1 John 3:20 John 16:30; 21:17 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Sanctifies 1 Thess. 5:23 Heb. 2:11 1 Pet. 1:2
Life giver Gen. 2:7: John 5:21 John 1:3; 5:21 2 Cor. 3:6,8
Fellowship 1 John 1:3 1 Cor. 1:9 2 Cor. 13:14; Phil. 2:1
Eternal Psalm 90:2 Micah 5:1-2 Rom. 8:11; Heb. 9:14
A Will Luke 22:42 Luke 22:42 1 Cor. 12:11
Speaks Matt. 3:17; Luke 9:25 Luke 5:20; 7:48 Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2
Love John 3:16 Eph. 5:25 Rom. 15:30
Searches the heart Jer. 17:10 Rev. 2:23 1 Cor. 2:10
We belong to John 17:9 John 17:6 . . .
Savior
1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10 2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:4; 3:6 . . .
We serve Matt. 4:10 Col. 3:24 . . .
Believe in John 14:1 John 14:1 . . .
Gives joy . . .
John 15:11 John 14:7
Judges John 8:50 John 5:21,30 . . .



Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.

 

[Mark Kerr]

Jesus never claimed to be God.

Well, no. Jesus did state, "I and the Father are one, those who have seen me, have seen the Father." He said that in John.

 

[CyniQ]

They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

This is what I got out of your text. The rest of it made very little sense. "God is three persons but not three beings" and all that. Do you believe this because this is what you were taught, or because you have proven it to yourself through study of the scriptures?

Have you heard of Simon and Garfunkel? In the song Sounds of Silence there is a verse that says "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". That is so applicable when it comes to scripture. So many people hold tight to what they believe regardless of insurmountable evidence to the contrary. I do not see any support for the trinity in scripture and I have looked.

In response to your arguement that God is 3 persons but not 3 beings, consider Jesus words at John 8:17, 18. He states: In your own Law it is written, The witness of two men is true. I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me. Here Jesus shows that he and the Father, that is, Almighty God, must be two distinct entities, for how else could there truly be two witnesses?

In return for your "time is past, present, and future" analogy, I'll say this. If you were to help me to understand your relationship with someone who is your equal, what analogy might you use? Among your family who is closest to being your equal? Your brother? Sister? a twin maybe? But certainly not your Father. When you speak about your father it would not be reasonable to assume that people would regard you as equals.

 

[CyniQ]

Well, no. Jesus did state, "I and the Father are one, those who have seen me, have seen the Father." He said that in John.

HaHa. Nice try. That text, at John 10:30, is often cited to support the Trinity, even though no third person is mentioned there. Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being one with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, . . . that they may be one just as we are one. Was Jesus praying that all his disciples would become a single entity? No, obviously Jesus was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were.

btw have you officially stated your view on this issue MK?

 

[garyzilla]

This is what I got out of your text. The rest of it made very little sense. "God is three persons but not three beings" and all that. Do you believe this because this is what you were taught, or because you have proven it to yourself through study of the scriptures?

Have you heard of Simon and Garfunkel? In the song Sounds of Silence there is a verse that says "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". That is so applicable when it comes to scripture. So many people hold tight to what they believe regardless of insurmountable evidence to the contrary. I do not see any support for the trinity in scripture and I have looked.

In response to your arguement that God is 3 persons but not 3 beings, consider Jesus words at John 8:17, 18. He states: In your own Law it is written, The witness of two men is true. I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me. Here Jesus shows that he and the Father, that is, Almighty God, must be two distinct entities, for how else could there truly be two witnesses?

In return for your "time is past, present, and future" analogy, I'll say this. If you were to help me to understand your relationship with someone who is your equal, what analogy might you use? Among your family who is closest to being your equal? Your brother? Sister? a twin maybe? But certainly not your Father. When you speak about your father it would not be reasonable to assume that people would regard you as equals.

CyniQ if you do not want to believe in the Trinity then don't. But with all the verses tha I have give you, and the rest it does prove the Trinity. I think that it would not matter how much proof that I give you, you are still not going to agree. That is fine. But there nothing more that I can do for you.

 

[garyzilla]

HaHa. Nice try. That text, at John 10:30, is often cited to support the Trinity, even though no third person is mentioned there. Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being one with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, . . . that they may be one just as we are one. Was Jesus praying that all his disciples would become a single entity? No, obviously Jesus was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were.

btw have you officially stated your view on this issue MK?

Mark was not trying to prove the Trinity with this verse. You said that Jesus never claimed to be God. This verse shows that Jesus is God. That is all that Mark was trying to point out. You must have this thing for the Trinity.

 

[Grizzly]

Well, the answer is that girl will indeed suck dick. Why? Because the first premise states ALL VIRGINS SUCK DICK. Therefore, any girl that is a virgin will suck dick. It doesnt depend on that particular virgin, because as you stated, they ALL suck dick.

I like your example by the way

And that's why I hate formal logic. I gave a false premise and it came out to be a true conclusion, despite the fact that it is a dependant conclusion.

In reality, to make it a true conclusion, it should have read "some virgins suck dick", but, noooooo, some silly bastard (I seem to remember Pythagoras somehow being involved) came up with a system of logic that is independent of reality.

Maybe I should have been a mathemetician. There's no contradictions in math....that I know of with my limited knowledge.

 

[Rod]

Grizzly, Grizzly, Grizzly, of course if the premise is not true then the conclusion will not be true.

 

[Grizzly]

Did you miss the whole discussion? False premise + true premise= a true conclusion. Of course, that only applies to formal logic.

 

[Rod]

Did you miss the whole discussion? False premise + true premise= a true conclusion. Of course, that only applies to formal logic.

I guess that that I must have missed the whole discussion; either that or I am too dense? Grizzly maybe you can elaborate. Either that or refer me to the relevant posts?

 

[dustoff1]

Wow... I only read the first few and last few posts.... So I cant comment intelligently on all that has been said...

But... lets just say my faith lies with Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God and God at the same time and I place my life with Him and have been washed of my sins by the work He did on the cross... No one can earn their way to Heaven...
Cant be done... Adam and Eve screwed that up for us...

Jesus fixed it...

 

[Grizzly]

Rod-

The relevant posts are the ones between Mark and myself. We were discussing formal logic and how it has no "real world" application.

Check out Mark's post about all turkeys being birds and all birds being able to fly, therefore all turkeys can fly.

 

[Rod]

Fuck you Grizzly, you complete and utter asshole! Seriously, Grizzly I am to drunk too engage in civilized discourse. Maybe tomorrow after work I will show you that tangling with ROD IS NOT WISE.