Beginner HGH questions for 27 yo dude who decided to be more reasonable

[T&H]

Frankly, these are not complicated probability and statistical concepts and are the basis for all the published literature in existence. Without these principles being applied to observations, you just get hocus pocus claims that do a disservice to all of us. I think this is incredibly important to understand: these bloodwork results do not support the claim that split dosing increases serum IGF-I more than a single bolus.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by what I believe you stated in the primo and E2 thread from memory. I thought you said there was no literature showing primo lowered serum E2, but you were actively looking for members bloodwork showing it does for them.

I know 2 members bloodwork here isn't enough, but if I am correct above if what I thought you said couldn't you apply the same principle to further investigate by actively looking for more bloodwork? Igf1 bloods seem to be far fewer than other bloodwork though.

 

[B Ware]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by what I believe you stated in the primo and E2 thread from memory. I thought you said there was no literature showing primo lowered serum E2, but you were actively looking for members bloodwork showing it does for them.

I know 2 members bloodwork here isn't enough, but if I am correct above if what I thought you said couldn't you apply the same principle to further investigate by actively looking for more bloodwork? Igf1 bloods seem to be far fewer than other bloodwork though.

You aren’t wrong. This is exactly why I mentioned Mighty Mouse and my blood work. I was a caught a bit off guard when he responded dismissing our labs but wanting to accept others.

When I worked in chemical plants I hired guys like type-II all the time. Educated guys but couldn’t do the job as everything they knew was from a book or the internet. I feel the same applies here. He can research and google like no other but some of the things he’s said has me questioning if he’s ever even used rhgh.

 

[Type-IIx]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by what I believe you stated in the primo and E2 thread from memory. I thought you said there was no literature showing primo lowered serum E2, but you were actively looking for members bloodwork showing it does for them.

I know 2 members bloodwork here isn't enough, but if I am correct above if what I thought you said couldn't you apply the same principle to further investigate by actively looking for more bloodwork? Igf1 bloods seem to be far fewer than other bloodwork though.

Absolutely, but here are some differences:

1. We cannot conclusively say that Primo lowers E2 for the very fact that we haven't applied any rigorous statistical nor research methods to determine this. Do you think Peter Bond sees these bloodwork results and believes that's evidence of Primo lowering E2? No, because he adheres to the principle of parsimony.

All that we can say is that there is a strong hypothesis that Primo likely lowers serum E2 in some individuals

2. But I have modeled metenolone in SwissTargetPrediction and it at least has a plausible mechanism to reduce E2 by acting at Aromatase (CYP19A1, Probability 0.88). A similar known active compound is exemestane (Aromasin)

3. The effect in some individuals is so dramatic that it seems absurd in my view to discount what looks like a clear effect. For example: Ment / test cycle and how much AI?

and Primo: risk-reward profile... is it 'conspicuous consumption' or does it really only 'shine' with long-term use?

There is no alternative explanation that seems more likely: i.e., the most likely explanation here is that Primo is lowering E2.

This is quite unlike the case of split doses of rhGH being claimed to increase serum IGF-I more than a single bolus at a constant absolute dose. In this case, rather than split dosing being the most likely explanation, the far more likely explanation is that serum IGF-I continues to increase for many weeks/months beyond week 6 regardless of whether dosing is daily or 2x daily.

In fact, to falsify the null premise that 2x daily injections of rhGH does not significantly increase serum IGF-I differently from a single daily injection would require sensitive statistical methods to discern a difference because of the very fact that these changes, if they were to occur, would be miniscule. This is because there is no known particular mechanism (unlike metenolone where there are at least similar compounds like exemestane; an 0.88 probability for aromatase activity; as well as clinical use in breast cancer that relies on this action) nor any particular reason for why 2x vs 1x constant daily dose rhGH would cause a significant between-group difference in the increase to serum IGF-I.

 

[Klimmzugernie]

thank you so far for your input and all the helpfull side discussions... big benefit here!
But i am a little unsure how to proceed.
i decided to add fast acting insulin to my protocol. Wich means 2IU of GH i.m.. 20 minutes later i shot 5 IU of humalog s.c.. 15 minutes later i plan to eat 60g (dry weight) white basmati rice, and 200g (uncooked weight) of chicken (or similar macros with cream of rice and whey isolate). After one hour i plan to start my work out with an intra work out shake 20g of EAA and 30g of cluster dextrin OR maltodextrin (with some creatin).
After workout checking blood sugar, take another 5 IUs of humlog and drink 60g whey isolate with 100g of cream of rice.

For safety purpose i take some extra carbs (dextrose) with me. The amount of insulin might will change depending on my sugar levels but i would like to know if my proposed timing of GH, slin, nutrient intake makes sense and if it is really possible to compensate the temporary insulin resistance of the GH with the insulin usage (i guess - yes for sure but i would like to ask for confirmation).

What would you guys do "better"?

 

[Mighty-mouse]

So there was no washout nor adaptation period. No pretest/posttest design.

What you're saying is that he started to split his dose after week 6 and his IGF-I continued to increase.

This is consistent with the fact that IGF-I continues to increase time- & dose- dependently over many weeks until it begins to taper and actually decrease around 6 months.

Week 2-3 you will record your highest igf numbers period I don’t care if you run it for a year straight at the same dose and pin schedule. Week 2-3 will be the highest you will pull. Then the levels will level out and you will pull consistent numbers for the remainder of the year. As long as the growth is the same quality.

Check my test I did when I pulled bloodwork 16 weeks straight. week 4-16 were around the same numbers each time.

And where did you read the decrease in 6 months? Shit I may be different cause I’m back to base line in about 4-5 weeks

 

[Mighty-mouse]

What was the p-value and effect size? Did you and Might-mouse develop your sampling based on Cochran or Yamane? What were your methods? Was there sufficient washout and adaptation periods for each pretest/posttest? Was dose based on body mass (as subjects grew was dose kept constant or titrated?) Where did you source your rhGH from, was it Genotropin from Vetter Pharma-Fertigung GmbH & Co. KG Ravensburg, Germany or Vetter Pharma-Fertigung GmbH & Co. KG Langenargen, Germany? Does the assay used to test your sample indicate quantity and purity? that is, aside from confirming whether contents include 22-kDa GH, does it tell you precisely how much is in each vial?

I'm not even being a prick, a basic understanding of probability and statistics, research methods, would foreclose you ever even making this claim to begin with. A handful of bloodwork results from 2 people using black market product "from the same batch" can't be used to falsify the assumed null hypothesis to begin with. Not to mind show a significant between-group difference with a 99% confidence interval.

Shit, what was your null hypothesis?

You do know this is a UNDERGROUND steriod forum. We pin, we pull blood, and we report.

Another words we aren’t scientist and we use our own funding to do all the test.

 

[Type-IIx]

Week 2-3 you will record your highest igf numbers period I don’t care if you run it for a year straight at the same dose and pin schedule. Week 2-3 will be the highest you will pull. Then the levels will level out and you will pull consistent numbers for the remainder of the year. As long as the growth is the same quality.

Check my test I did when I pulled bloodwork 16 weeks straight. week 4-16 were around the same numbers each time.

And where did you read the decrease in 6 months? Shit I may be different cause I’m back to base line in about 4-5 weeks

One piece of several lines of data. I get PMs from guys on here telling me their GH response has diminished (as early as month 5).

As you can see by month 6 there is a ~12% decrement and by month 9, ~43%.

There's broad and polarized inter-individual variation (some guys see dramatic drop-offs sooner than others; shit some are non-responders that see no change in IGF-I with 10 IU pharma rhGH daily during the course of 6 months, but to that extreme you're talking pre-existing liver disease, obesity, flfl GHR polymorphism, etc.)

It's interesting you report week 2 - 3 being your highest IGF-I reading as that's quite early for saturation of somatotrophs in the liver. Is this low dose, like <5 IU daily always?

Anyhow, the data has led me to two distinct methods for practical rhGH use: cyclical (cycling off and on and/or dose titration) as well as in strategic combination with the use agents that boost IGF-I bioavailability.

 

[LSDPowerlifting]

Anyhow, the data has led me to two distinct methods for practical rhGH use: cyclical (cycling off and on and/or dose titration)

So my permanent replacement dosage is a waste? Fuck meee

 

[hghlover]

So my permanent replacement dosage is a waste? Fuck meee

Not nessesarily. People respond differently. You will have to draw your own blood to know.

 

[LSDPowerlifting]

Not nessesarily. People respond differently. You will have to draw your own blood to know.

I wasn't being serious, of course a replacement dose should be higher than baseline or else wtf?

Instead of saying what I said next time I'll just be more clear and say Type-llx is a fucking retard.

 

[Type-IIx]

I wasn't being serious, of course a replacement dose should be higher than baseline or else wtf?

Instead of saying what I said next time I'll just be more clear and say Type-llx is a fucking retard.

If you spend money on <= replacement GH doses (i.e., the way I see most using rhGH) without an adult GHD diagnosis, you are in fact, if not retarded - failing to apply logic.

In defense of the masses pursuing these illogical ends - there are a lot of "low dose advocates" marketing this to avid recreationals and most people don't actually know what replacement doses are, not to mind dose-response for gigantism vs. acromegalic growth. etc.

 

[malfeasance]

Hello

untinteresting for my questions but a small introduction why i decided to add HGH to my PIED routine. if you are not interested just skip it.
I am 37 with more than 7 years of steroid experiences. Best look was at 105kg and slightly below 10%BF. Did everything right, had several coaches.. bla bla bla but i recognized over the last two years how crazy i was and how big my AAS dosages are - sometimes over 2g per week. So in the end i become a little more reasonable for me and my body and recognized that i will never become as big as i would like to be. My latest blood lab was also not the best regarding blood lipids and slight out of range kidney function (yes i know creatinine and calculated filtration rate is not very meaningful for bodybuilders). So i went down to my TRT dose of 125mg e3d of testosterone enanthate. I got smaller but with better libido and stamina (although i alwas had an eye of all of my hormones like E2, prolactin, progesteron, SHBG, free and total T et cetera).
Yes i feel great but i miss a little bit size of my body. my weight is now 94kg and ~12% BF at 183cm. So now i would like to start an age conform PIED cylce which keep my libido and stamina as it is right now with more fullness and size...
I planned to use 125mg of testosterone e, 50mg of primobolan e3d, maybe switch to e2d. No AI because due to my experiences of this "small" testosterone dosage. in addition Primobolan does a good job for me to keep my E2 levels in range.
In top of that i would like to use 2IU of rHGH pre workout.

my questions are:
1) how many BAC or NaCl water i shall use for solve it in 10IU rHGH?
My plan was to use a insulin syringe with a volume of 50IU and shoot it two times into the rHGH vial. Which means 100IU of BAC in an insulin syringe solve 10IU of rHGH.
To get 2IU out of the rHGH vial i have to get 20IU of my insulin syringe thats it.
Do you think is is enough BAC water or shall i even use a little more or less?

2) in another topic @Type-IIx wrote some interesting studies and ideas which supported my own thoughts an research efforts.
My plan is to use 2IU of rHGH after my pre work out meal when blood sugar drops to fasted state again. Then pin 2IU wait 1-1.5 hours to go to train.
But this is very time consuming and i think if it might be better for me to pin 2IU before bed time with 250-500mg of metformin.
Does it make a difference regarding fat los? Just can imagine that pre work out gives me more fullness and it makes more sense to do a lifting session while me free fatty acids are on a high because of the HGH.

2a) i am not a diabetic but my HBa1C is in the high references and fasted glucose is always slightly over 100 (104, 102, 106 etc). OGTT says i am non diabetic. My interest is to reduce the risk of insulin resistance as good as i can but i really do not like metformin so much. First of all i have to see how big the influence of only 2IU is.
My question: when eating 50g of carbs (cream of rice) pre work out (and post work out) and use 5IU of humalog or novorapid (maybe a little less .. i have to try out) for and after work out, can i reduce the time of the HGH shot and the pre work out meal because the temporary insulin resistance of the HGH can be covered by the insulin?

sorry for my bad english i hope my text makes sense to you.

If you were not getting the size you wanted on more than 2 grams, then the first place I would look is your diet.

By all means try hgh and insulin, but diet is where the growth is.

If your weight stalls, the calories are not high enough. You should grow muscle, get fat, something. If the scale does not budge for two weeks, then you have been eating at your new maintenance level for the prior two weeks.

While that sounds overly simplistic, it is true.

 

[LSDPowerlifting]

If you spend money on <= replacement GH doses (i.e., the way I see most using rhGH) without an adult GHD diagnosis, you are in fact, if not retarded - failing to apply logic.

In defense of the masses pursuing these illogical ends - there are a lot of "low dose advocates" marketing this to avid recreationals and most people don't actually know what replacement doses are, not to mind dose-response for gigantism vs. acromegalic growth. etc.

Where is this mass of people injecting less than they create naturally? Stfu

 

[Type-IIx]

Where is this mass of people injecting less than they create naturally? Stfu

All over the fucking place, hot shot. You've never seen anyone running 2 IU 5 on/2 off?

 

[malfeasance]

All over the fucking place, hot shot. You've never seen anyone running 2 IU 5 on/2 off?

I have better results on 2 iu than natty, so that is probably not exactly a "replacement dose" in the way you mean it in this thread.

I think most guys are talking about bringing levels up, especially as they get older and levels drop.

Sort of like 150mg of test is a "replacement dose," but for a middle aged guy with a total testosterone score of 286, the 150mg is going to change his quality of life substantially.

 

[Type-IIx]

I have better results on 2 iu than natty, so that is probably not exactly a "replacement dose" in the way you mean it in this thread.

I think most guys are talking about bringing levels up, especially as they get older and levels drop.

Sort of like 150mg of test is a "replacement dose," but for a middle aged guy with a total testosterone score of 286, the 150mg is going to change his quality of life substantially.

Correct, it's age-dependent. A 20-something guy running 2 IU 5 on/2 off is pissing away his money.

150 mg weekly test enanthate is quite a bit above true replacement (i.e., it provides ~80% more T than the natural 5 - 7 mg daily tesosterone secretion of healthy young men).

 

[malfeasance]

Correct, it's age-dependent. A 20-something guy running 2 IU 5 on/2 off is pissing away his money.

That's not something I see very often, but when I do see a young guy doing low dose, I try to discourage it.

 

[malfeasance]

View attachment 164705
One piece of several lines of data. I get PMs from guys on here telling me their GH response has diminished (as early as month 5).

As you can see by month 6 there is a ~12% decrement and by month 9, ~43%.

There's broad and polarized inter-individual variation (some guys see dramatic drop-offs sooner than others; shit some are non-responders that see no change in IGF-I with 10 IU pharma rhGH daily during the course of 6 months, but to that extreme you're talking pre-existing liver disease, obesity, flfl GHR polymorphism, etc.)

It's interesting you report week 2 - 3 being your highest IGF-I reading as that's quite early for saturation of somatotrophs in the liver. Is this low dose, like <5 IU daily always?

Anyhow, the data has led me to two distinct methods for practical rhGH use: cyclical (cycling off and on and/or dose titration) as well as in strategic combination with the use agents that boost IGF-I bioavailability.

How long does one need to be "off" to restore a high IGF-1 response to rHGH?

This is the first I have heard of "agents that boost IGF-1 bioavailability." Is this something that helps one make the most of lower levels of IGF-1?

 

[igfMaster]

Correct, it's age-dependent. A 20-something guy running 2 IU 5 on/2 off is pissing away his money.

150 mg weekly test enanthate is quite a bit above true replacement (i.e., it provides ~80% more T than the natural 5 - 7 mg daily tesosterone secretion of healthy young men).

Hello. Type-llx, i need your advice. 150 mg test propionate eod and 40 mg stanozolol ed while taking 6ui rhgh ed will increase or decrease my igf-1? Thanks

 

[Type-IIx]

Hello. Type-llx, i need your advice. 150 mg test propionate eod and 40 mg stanozolol ed while taking 6ui rhgh ed will increase or decrease my igf-1? Thanks

Stanozolol decreases IGFBP-3, thereby increasing the bioactivity of IGF-I without affecting its value (neither directly increasing nor decreasing serum IGF-I). Stanozolol is an interesting drug, because it basically enhances the bioactivity of innate growth factors (like T & IGF-I) without significant effects on their total fractions (probably why it has been historically used by athletes without widespread detection; Charlie Francis considered it a supplement that "everyone else was using").

The Test (if coming from a lower dose than 525 mg weekly) will serve to increase IGF-I in combination with 6 IU rhGH (if a dose increase or coming from no rhGH).