Bulking on GLP1 agonists

[MingDao]

I've seen multiple posts on bulking with GLP1 agonists, which on paper makes a lot of sense due to nutrient partitioning and better insulin sensitivty. I understand that for high responders bulking on these may be very hard, but I only have mild appetite supression and no nausea from either Sema or Tirz. Fairly confident I can be in a caloric surplus, especially with liquid carbs and extra fat.
Would be very interested in bulking experiences on AAS and GLP1. Did it meaningfully change the ratio of fat v muscle gain?

 

[explodingHeart]

Some people seem to mainly be motivated by the desire to feel superior to others. Pretty much everything they see and hear will be skewed to fit this narrative, that things are working for them because they are doing things the Right way, without empathy or understanding of the fact that every individual's experience is just that- individual.

Imagine telling grandma she can't use take ozempic because a 30 year old juiced up short guy who competes in a thong and takes tren told her it was cheating

 

[Ghoul]

What is it about GLPs that makes all of the "hard work bros" so angry?

They consider taking GLPs "cheating" and "weak" but taking tren and steroids isn't cheating?

In a nutshell, energy intake is one of the deepest, most powerful biologically regulated behavioral drives in all animals. For whatever reason, like every other system, it can malfunction, and while willpower plays a role, if your body thinks it's starving and food is available you're going to lose that battle.

As we all know some people have always been skinny, sometimes unhealthily so, and struggle to eat a sufficient amount of food, a different type of regulatory malfunction.

But in the absence of modern science, being overweight was attributed to weakness, if not an outright moral failing.

So for someone's who's never struggled with weight, or only slightly, they've enjoyed the flip side of this. They're stronger. They have more willpower. They're more moral. They're just "better" than anyone who's overweight. (nevermind there are plenty of skinny losers who don't seem to exhibit these characteristics in any other aspect of their lives).

So here comes science saying, "Oh hey, you're not making enough GLP, here's some more", and suddenly those people can control their eating just as easily as you can, well, that would mean your weight doesn't indicate you're a superior human after all,

It blows up the whole narrative. After all, if being fat is purely a function of being greedy for food pleasure, then why would they stick needles (something normal people cringe at let's not forget),in themselves and go through very unpleasant side effects, denying themselves the ability to enjoy food, the very thing they supposedly "choose" to do solely because they love it so much?

When you go into the history of a lot of the most vocal haters you find out they STRUGGLE to eat enough, some since childhood.

Hell, some of these guys insist there isn't a potent system to regulate body weight, yet there are thousand of posts here at MESO of people begging for help to eat more, because they just can't do it, physically or psychologically, and need drugs to get their bodies to raise its demand for food intake, ie appetite.

 

[Ghoul]

Why do I think I have heard this from someone else.

I hate this stuff.

Fyi, PROS take these drugs as part of their prep, as a tool.
Not as a crutch, like Declan said.
It is a very different scenario.
If you have a health issue that requires you to take these drugs, it's awesome they are there for you.
I don't think anyone here would criticise you for that or call you a cheater.
Maybe the issue is more to do with what Declan calls abuse and a very blasé attitude towards them.
One takes them, they make their life better, but no learning occurs.
Do they make you change your ways, if those are what got you in trouble, in the first place?



This is/was supposed to be a forum where peds are discussed within the framework of bodybuilding and training.
A lot of people who are discussing these drugs, on Meso, do not strictly (or at all) form part of that demographic.
This is where a lot of the clashes originate, I think.

This is another lie, that most people use it as a "crutch", and weight regulation isprimarily a matter of willpower.

Then why the hell are there so many bodybuilders struggling to eat enough?

Why do they need appetite stimulants?

Are those a "crutch"? Open your mouth, put the food in, chew, and swallow, right? Why are they so weak? Where's their willpower?

It's not just a psychological lack of hunger, they can't PHYSICALLY do it. What stops them from eating? They get acid reflux. They vomit if they have even one bite beyond the "limit". Funny, sounds just like the same "limiters" that kick in when someone uses a GLP. It's as if they might naturally produce more of that hormone naturally. But that's ridiculous, we all know hormone levels don't vary between individuals. Besides, hormones can't influence human behavior in any significant way. Ask any tren user.

Then they use an appetite stimulant and suddenly, bam, it's no problem, They might even be famished, ready to eat everything around them. Pigging out even, and lamenting their poor choices made from intense hunger as we've seen reported here over and over. And then every bro reading that sad tale of a 2am 4 BigMac run, followed by ice cream, finds their compassionate side and consoles him, "we've all been there bro, it's just one day".

Anyone paying attention sees the trend. GLP users are changing the types of food demanded in the market, The fitness industry is seeing a major uptick in customers. Doctors are reporting more patients are adhering to medication and pursuing selling term health goals.

When all of someone's "willpower" doesn't have to be used to fight off an appetite that would take you to 400lbs of it wasn't wrestled with every hour of every day, they have the bandwidth to focus on other aspects of their health choices.

A "crutch" is injecting some shit that'll bring your death that much closer, leave your wife a widow and your kids fatherless, so you can get bigger for no particular reason, instead of living within your genetics and whatever chicken breast, broccoli, and weights will bring you.

Enough with the GLP shaming. Yeah it's sad, "thin privilege" is evaporating. That's where the anger comes from. Guess what, in a few years, a decade or two at most, obesity will be extinct. They'll just have to make themselves exceptional some other way.

 

[DECLAN]

This is another lie, that most people use it as a "crutch", and weight regulation primarily a matter of willpower.

Then why the hell are there so many bodybuilders struggling to eat enough?

Why do they need appetite stimulants?

Are those a "crutch"? Open your mouth, put the food in, chew, and swallow, right? Why are they so weak? Where's their willpower?

It's not just a psychological lack of hunger, they can't PHYSICALLY do it. What stops them from eating? They get acid reflux. They vomit if they have even one bite beyond the "limit". Funny, sounds just like the same "limiters" that kick in when someone uses a GLP.

Then they use an appetite stimulant and suddenly, bam, it's no problem, They might even be famished, ready to eat everything around them. Pigging out even, and lamenting their poor choices made from intense hunger as we've seen reported here over and over.

Anyone paying attention sees the trend. GLP users are changing the types of food demanded in the market, The fitness industry is seeing a major uptick in customers. Doctors are reporting more patients are adhering to medication and pursuing selling term health goals.

When all of someone's "willpower" doesn't have to be used to fight off an appetite that would take you to 400lbs of it want wrestled with every hour of every day, they have the bandwidth to focus on other aspects.

A "crutch" is injecting some shit that'll bring your death that much closer, leave your wife a widow and your kids fatherless, so you can get bigger for no particular reason, instead of living within your genetics and whatever chicken breast, broccoli, and weights will bring you.

What you mean lie? What kind of reasoning are you trying to justify you eating like a pig. This is the main reason you are going to continue being obese, because you think the drugs will solve your eating problems.

I bet you only eat the most caloric dense processed foods that’s why you got so bog in the first place. I never saw anyone here complaining even being overweight eating chicken breast/lean meats and broccoli or leafy veggies.

You can’t even show us a picture of yourself as evidence of your transformation from obese to fit, you don’t even have to be muscular; just be healthy weight is good enough.

Dude, you claim to be on glps even before they came out, so if my math is right more than 7 years. Come on post a picture of your transformation, or stop posting these bullshit lies. There are people who don’t even use drugs who are fit because they know what to eat, you don’t need drugs or whatever gimmick to eat healthy.

Stop with your delusions and keep telling yourself it’s because of stimulants or peds is why others are fit and you are not.

 

[iris]

This is another lie, that most people use it as a "crutch", and weight regulation isprimarily a matter of willpower.

Ok.
Even so, do you think that, thanks to the opportunity offered by these drugs, most people also do a certain amount of self reflection, acknowledging that they also have choices, in terms of what and how much they decide to eat?
Do you think that, having had the grace to solve weight issues thanks to these drugs, a little bit of accountability should not be brought into the picture, as your weightloss is occurring?
Nevermind the fact that willpower is irrelevant and not the main driver of appetite.
I understand that food can be just another addiction and if it is recognised it can be an hormonal issue, I am not going to argue against this, because I do not have the means.
But there are also people that eat more than they should or the "wrong" stuff, just because they like it and find it rewarding.
We are all addicted to something.
Sometimes hormones are not the culprit.
When you create certain habits, it's difficult to move away from them.

Then why the hell are there so many bodybuilders struggling to eat enough?

Why do they need appetite stimulants?

Are those a "crutch"? Open your mouth, put the food in, chew, and swallow, right? Why are they so weak? Where's their willpower?

It's not just a psychological lack of hunger, they can't PHYSICALLY do it. What stops them from eating? They get acid reflux. They vomit

This is set within a certain goal.
You may not like the goal, and resent them for chasing it, but it’s a different scenario.
I have already said I think this is a fallacious argument.

But that's ridiculous, we all know hormone levels don't vary between individuals. Besides, hormones can't influence human behavior in any significant way. Ask any tren user.

I don't think people are really arguing about this.

Anyone paying attention sees the trend. GLP users are changing the types of food demanded in the market, The fitness industry is seeing a major uptick in customers. Doctors are reporting more patients are adhering to medication and pursuing selling term health goals.

When all of someone's "willpower" doesn't have to be used to fight off an appetite that would take you to 400lbs of it wasn't wrestled with every hour of every day, they have the bandwidth to focus on other aspects of their health choices.

Who, here, is advocating against this being a positive thing?
I must have missed it.

A "crutch" is injecting some shit that'll bring your death that much closer, leave your wife a widow and your kids fatherless, so you can get bigger for no particular reason, instead of living within your genetics and whatever chicken breast, broccoli, and weights will bring you.

See above.
Nobody has to like their narcissistic nature.
You may not approve of their life style and the fact that, despite all the drugs that they take to get bigger or whatever, it all requires effort, accountability and a huge amount of commitment and discipline.
All the drugs in the world don't mean much, without all this.
Are you one of those that thinks you take steroids, sit on the sofa and end up looking like flipping Ronnie Coleman?

Yeah it's sad, "thin privilege" is evaporating. That's where the anger comes from.

seriously.
You calling "skinny losers" really flipping riles me up.

Guess what, in a few years, a decade or two at most, obesity will be extinct.

Awesome.
Let's hope the fridge-freezer debate about where to store the skinny peptides gets resolved, pronto.
Happy days ahead

 

[egruberman]

injecting glps and peds without proper nutrition, training and recovery will not end well.

Recent data suggests that injecting GLPs and doing nothing else generally yields better health outcomes. In that sense it is a bit of a cheat. Using anabolics without training and nutrition on the other hand generally does not.

From the perspective of this crowd, someone that has a shitty diet and doesn't exercise that goes from being obese to skinnyfat wouldn't constitute success, but they still may be healthier as a result.

Bringing things back around to OP's question, I ran a bulk on tirz earlier in the year. It was a bit unpleasant as a result of the delayed gastric emptying, but I was able to titrate my appetite to keep the weight gain in check. Without a GLP agonist in the mix and eating a relatively clean diet, my appetite tends to cause me to gain weight pretty steadily.

I'm about to start another bulk and will likely do the same.

 

[DECLAN]

Recent data suggests that injecting GLPs and doing nothing else generally yields better health outcomes. In that sense it is a bit of a cheat. Using anabolics without training and nutrition on the other hand generally does not.

From the perspective of this crowd, someone that has a shitty diet and doesn't exercise that goes from being obese to skinnyfat wouldn't constitute success, but they still may be healthier as a result.

Even peds, there is a documented study on patients given 500mg of test and they grew without exercise too.

The challenge now lies in keeping that muscle after you get off the drugs or staying in a healthy weight range when you stop using glps, and let’s be honest most of us here are on underground drugs, those who have prescription are using it to control their ailments and the weight loss or muscle gain is just a by product.

The best scenario is to learn to eat the right foods, if you want to binge, binge on chicken breast and vegetables, let’s see someone come back and report that they got obese for eating properly which never happened anyway.

 

[egruberman]

Even peds, there is a documented study on patients given 500mg of test and they grew without exercise too.

I've seen it. Though there's no data to prove it, I suspect that running 500mg continuously without training would yield poorer health outcomes in most. I suspect BP, lipids, and symptoms of high E2 would be be prominent.

staying in a healthy weight range when you stop using glps,

This is going to be a challenge for anyone.

The best scenario is to learn to eat the right foods, if you want to binge, binge on chicken breast and vegetables, let’s see someone come back and report that they got obese for eating properly which never happened anyway.

I guarantee you that I can get fat as fuck on chicken and rice. I fucking love chicken and rice and can eat almost a limitless amount.

 

[iris]

@Ghoul

Obviously being out of here for a week, one misses a lot of stuff.
I missed you all and so I popped back today because fomo and another thing.

Not sure where the aggro against you exactly comes from now, although I am aware it does happen, periodically.
I don't know if I am just being ridiculous but I get there is something a bit off.
Are you ok? Are you down/stressed/sad/whatever?
Idk.
There's a thing.
Say I am wrong and ridiculous.

 

[iris]

I've seen it. Though there's no data to prove it, I suspect that running 500mg continuously without training would yield poorer health outcomes in most. I suspect BP, lipids, and symptoms of high E2 would be be prominent.

I have seen it too.
People reading that stuff will come away with the wrong idea of what it would actually mean, in their reality.

I guarantee you that I can get fat as fuck on chicken and rice. I fucking love chicken and rice and can eat almost a limitless amount.

Limitless amounts of flavourless chicken and rice?
No. What do you put on that stuff or how do you cook it?
If I go to Nando's (don't know the equivalent chicken place in the US), maybe, but it’s with sauces and stuff. You can eat a lot of that stuff.
If you told me you open a pack of cookies and can't stop, I understand.
Done that.
But boiled, plain stuff, not really.

 

[DECLAN]

I've seen it. Though there's no data to prove it, I suspect that running 500mg continuously without training would yield poorer health outcomes in most. I suspect BP, lipids, and symptoms of high E2 would be be prominent.



This is going to be a challenge for anyone.



I guarantee you that I can get fat as fuck on chicken and rice. I fucking love chicken and rice and can eat almost a limitless amount.

I don’t know man, either you need to work on your metabolism so you could eat more or you’re eating some other calorie dense food. Most competitors and genetic elites have problems putting down clean food, and were talking people with appetites so I don’t know man.

Maybe you’re over eating rice lol. Remember man cico reigns supreme, you can get fat if you’re over your calories no matter what kind of food but 3000 calories of chicken breast is tough to get in.

 

[AlexDavis43]

I've seen it. Though there's no data to prove it, I suspect that running 500mg continuously without training would yield poorer health outcomes in most. I suspect BP, lipids, and symptoms of high E2 would be be prominent.



This is going to be a challenge for anyone.



I guarantee you that I can get fat as fuck on chicken and rice. I fucking love chicken and rice and can eat almost a limitless amount.

I don’t know man, either you need to work on your metabolism so you could eat more or you’re eating some other calorie dense food. Most competitors and genetic elites have problems putting down clean food, and were talking people with appetites so I don’t know man.

Maybe you’re over eating rice lol. Remember man cico reigns supreme, you can get fat if you’re over your calories no matter what kind of food but 3000 calories of chicken breast is tough to get in.

I don't think some people appreciate or understand how much bodybuilders suffer when cutting.

I question if they've ever stuck with chicken, rice, & broccoli or lean meat & potatoes for more than one meal.

 

[DECLAN]

I don't think some people appreciate or understand how much bodybuilders suffer when cutting.

I question if they've ever stuck with chicken, rice, & broccoli or lean meat & potatoes for more than one meal.

I thought I have an appetite when I first entered this lifestyle, then I quickly realized the difference between eating different kinds of protein.

I began to appreciate and understand what bodybuilding is and what separates us gymbros and those who compete.

Anyone who bulked 30+lbs and leaned down past 10% would understand the concept of eating clean food. Hence, I always reserve the respect to guys who post their competition pictures in the forums because I can never do what they endure to attain such physiques.

 

[egruberman]

Limitless amounts of flavourless chicken and rice?

When I was a kid growing up in Louisiana my family made a dish that was comprised of a whole boiled chicken and rice. My recollection is that the chicken was boiled, then deboned. The stock and meat were than put in a large 13 quart dutch oven with rice and baked. Everyone would get a serving and I would eat the rest. Granted, there was likely a fair bit of fat in that, but still, just plain chicken and rice.

I'm on fair bit of tirz right now, had a tiny chicken and rice dish for lunch and my stomach is uncomfortably full. Even still, the thought of it stimulates my appetite.

I don’t know man, either you need to work on your metabolism so you could eat more or you’re eating some other calorie dense food. Most competitors and genetic elites have problems putting down clean food, and were talking people with appetites so I don’t know man.

You could say I'm a genetic elite. I made it up to 340lbs. I'm not looking for advice on how to eat, I figured that out. I lost 120lbs before ever touching a GLP agonist. You asserted that someone couldn't get fat eating chicken and rice and I for sure can if I tried.

If I were younger, I have no doubt that I would have zero difficulty getting really big.

cico reigns supreme

Yes, the law of thermodynamics exists, but the accounting is where things get tricky.

 

[DECLAN]

When I was a kid growing up in Louisiana my family made a dish that was comprised of a whole boiled chicken and rice. My recollection is that the chicken was boiled, then deboned. The stock and meat were than put in a large 13 quart dutch oven with rice and baked. Everyone would get a serving and I would eat the rest. Granted, there was likely a fair bit of fat in that, but still, just plain chicken and rice.

I'm on fair bit of tirz right now, had a tiny chicken and rice dish for lunch and my stomach is uncomfortably full. Even still, the thought of it stimulates my appetite.



You could say I'm a genetic elite. I made it up to 340lbs. I'm not looking for advice on how to eat, I figured that out. I lost 120lbs before ever touching a GLP agonist. You asserted that someone couldn't get fat eating chicken and rice and I for sure can if I tried.

If I were younger, I have no doubt that I would have zero difficulty getting really big.



Yes, the law of thermodynamics exists, but the accounting is where things get tricky.

So things don’t apply to you then because you’re a genetic elite end of story.

 

[egruberman]

So things don’t apply to you then because you’re a genetic elite end of story.

That was a joke. I was a genetically elite fatass. The point I'm trying to make, though is that my appetite is such that even "eating clean" isn't sufficient to keep me from accruing fat mass if I don't exercise other levers.

It's hard to say how much of that is hereditary and how much of that is the result of the poor lifestyle choices in my 20s and early 30s that led to metabolic syndrome. On reflection, I suspect that much of it was hereditary. I was fat as a kid, extremely active, and my family couldn't afford to eat processed food on a regular basis.

To be clear, I'm not fishing for sympathy or forgiveness. I'm happy with who I was and who I am. I have never failed to be able to change my body composition when I made the choice to do so. My point is that it's not as simple as CICO or "eat clean" or whatever and that advice falls flat on folks that are struggling.

 

[DECLAN]

That was a joke. I was a genetically elite fatass. The point I'm trying to make, though is that my appetite is such that even "eating clean" isn't sufficient to keep me from accruing fat mass if I don't exercise other levers.

It's hard to say how much of that is hereditary and how much of that is the result of the poor lifestyle choices in my 20s and early 30s that led to metabolic syndrome. On reflection, I suspect that much of it was hereditary. I was fat as a kid, extremely active, and my family couldn't afford to eat processed food on a regular basis.

To be clear, I'm not fishing for sympathy or forgiveness. I'm happy with who I was and who I am. I have never failed to be able to change my body composition when I made the choice to do so. My point is that it's not as simple as CICO or "eat clean" or whatever and that advice falls flat on folks that are struggling.

Gotya, however if you can eat massive amounts of clean food, you could use that to your advantage and grow like crazy. Digestive health aside, having the appetite to chow down high calories of clean food is a gift itself, it’s whats limiting most people pros included in growing.

As far as CICO is concerned, its simple enough to me, whatever is the case; eating below or above your caloric needs is what dictates your weight but what do I know I got below 10% only once in my life about 10yrs ago lol.

 

[psauce]

TL/DR - I am taking deca to rehab a bad knee injury and it makes me insanely hungry. I'm able to bulk at a reasonable rate because tirz has capped my appetite enough to stop me from over-eating (in excess of 5000 calories on a couple of days).

Long form:

I am usually on a slightly-more-than TRT test dose. I've used the GLP-1/GIP drugs both with and without metformin, mostly to drop weight I put on when I tried quetiapine (Seroquel) for insomnia for two months and gained like fifty pounds.

A recent knee injury gave me something of an excuse to bulk -- tore my MCL, damages the meniscus, and partially tore the ACL with it. All from making an awkward step onto a rock to get my dog's leash untangled... the most 60-year-old way to blow out your knee. I knew I was going to use Deca during the rehab, so I figured: if I'm stepping on the gas, let's step on the gas.

It turns out that Deca (300 mg/wk) makes me want to eat every fucking thing aside from leprechaun ass. On top of that was cyp at 600 mg/wk and Anavar at either 25 or 50 mg day. BPC-157 in the mix, but that's a whole other chapter.

I was aiming for a surplus of around 800-1000. A little greedy, but I've got surgical healing to do on top of my sick gainz. At the end of the first week, I was eating all of the leftovers from everyone's plate and anything in the fridge. I at a whole tray of tamales at 3:30 AM sitting in bed and then finished off half of the hard boiled eggs I'd made earlier that day.

I tried to contain the appetite, but it was exactly like Seroquel, as well as when I wrestled and had to be hungry for the full season. It was constant preoccupation with food.

I've tried between sema and tirz, I get better appetite control from sema but the side effects are too severe, especially GERD. I'm taking 0.5mg of tirz and it's like having that post-nut clarity again, except we're talking about glazing donuts here. But seriously, it gave me control of my appetite back. I'm actually having a little bit of trouble hitting my macro and calorie goals, because my one side effect is heartburn if I eat too late, so I might dial back the tirzepatide a little to see if it lets me bias my calories towards the earlier portion of the day without overfilling myself.

I could not run this stack, or any stack with 300 mg/wk deca, if I didn't have appetite control of some kind. Maybe it woulda been ECA in the past, I'm grateful not to be doing that now. More than likely, I would have just dropped the idea altogether and let collagen synthesis go at whatever pace my genetics allow.

So far, I'm pushing rehab hard and the results are great. Not taking any risks with the injury, but also pushing hard on the other lifts and the strength level is definitely reflective of the amount of shit I'm taking. Aside from abrupt and unspeakable pain whenever I move my knee wrong, this is all pretty great.

 

[UncleBuns]

I don't think some people appreciate or understand how much bodybuilders suffer when cutting.

I question if they've ever stuck with chicken, rice, & broccoli or lean meat & potatoes for more than one meal.

I'm not BB it but I have cut weight many times. I actually am right now and the final grind is rugged. I don't get down to nearly as low of body fat as a BB it so I've probably not experienced the same level of suffering. I do maintain a very high activity level through cutting though which feels 10x harder than it should. Motivation plummets and my general attitude really goes to shit.

GLP's definitely help with the calorie restriction but they do not help with the feeling of depletion, low energy, bad mood, motivation, draining, etc.

 

[UncleBuns]

I've seen multiple posts on bulking with GLP1 agonists, which on paper makes a lot of sense due to nutrient partitioning and better insulin sensitivty. I understand that for high responders bulking on these may be very hard, but I only have mild appetite supression and no nausea from either Sema or Tirz. Fairly confident I can be in a caloric surplus, especially with liquid carbs and extra fat.
Would be very interested in bulking experiences on AAS and GLP1. Did it meaningfully change the ratio of fat v muscle gain?

IMO a strong GLP 1 like SEMA would not be a good choice for bulking. The appetite suppression is strong. On the other hand some compounds that get called a GLP 1 like Tirz are actually a stronger GIP and can help a lot with insulin sensitization which would be very helpful for bulking. A lot of guys bulking increase their GH dose so the insulin sensitization will be very useful to counteract the GH desensitization. Tirz at a low or moderate dose does not severely affect my appetite and I think it would be well suited in a bulk.