Eman
Master
Agreed. I stopped trying to do the math.
I'm really more interested in the insulin and GH usage to be honest... What kind of dosages that was like.
But, once again, I think it's just leading to more and more speculation.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Dallas McCarver Autopsy Report.
- Thread starter mands
- Start date
Agreed. I stopped trying to do the math.
I'm really more interested in the insulin and GH usage to be honest... What kind of dosages that was like.
But, once again, I think it's just leading to more and more speculation.
Of course, it's indicative of steroid use. That's not in dispute. But it's not a good way to determine testosterone dosage or serum testosterone levels.
Don't assume epitestosterone levels remain the same with exogenous testosterone use and synthetic steroid use. The more endogenous testosterone is suppressed, the more epitestosterone is suppressed. If there's HPTA suppression is severe, epitestosterone will be extremely low. In such cases, it wouldn't take much exogenous testosterone to create a crazy T:E ratio.
Doug_S
Member
I would never try to correlate for exactly the reasons you state, and in addition, I doubt that there is good pharmacological data for extreme doses for ethical reasons.
However normal test range for adult males in ng/ ml is 2.4 to 12. He was @ 550 or 50x's above a high normal range Those were blood levels per the report and not a urinalysis unless I am missing something.
He was NOT homozygous FHC which is about the only condition that causes a heart attack in 25 year olds from ischemia from CAD. Yes, he had a predisposition but his lifestyle (environment) certainly realized a synergy that accelerated his disease. 26 year olds don't have hearts 3x's normal size and cardiac left ventricle hypertrophy either. There are multiple lines if evidence that clearly show this was a genetic predisposition interacting with an environment conducive for disease
10/4 Millard while the WADA used urinary assays to determine
PED use they are only interested
in answering TWO guestions
1) has the competitor used a banned substance
2) has the competitor “supplemented” an endogenously secreted such as EPO, TT, GH etc
In the former situation a urinary assay only needs to note the presence of a banned substance active metabolites
In the latter cause once the pharmacokinetics are established, a level that exceeds the known urinary threshold for endogenous secretion can then be used to determine “abuse”
With very few exceptions drug “toxicity” requires serum levels.
The report may suggest that but the T:E ratio test is a urinary antidoping test
Doug_S
Member
There are two specimen numbers, one says femoral artery blood the other is a urinalysis, so both were run.
And as I mentioned earlier, bc existing TT pharmacokinetic data does not allow for Serum TT quantification based upon urinary metabolite
levels, only serum TT levels are used in clinical practice.
Finally TT carbon 13/12 ratios are the standard in WADA labs as a means of confirming a “positive” urinary
screening assay.
Jim
master.on
New Member
Nice find Millard
It looks like it was actually an URINE test, not blood
For juicers, 550 ng/ml ain't a specially high level IN URINE, read the study below.
While the report at first suggests it's a blood test
Container(s): 01:RTB Blood, FEMORAL
in the next page it says
PLEASE NOTE: This is a revised report. Previous report on 09/07/17 did
not indicate Anabolic Steroid Panel on Urine.
Scientific literature seems to confirm that they use urine, not blood for steroid tests
Screening for Anabolic Steroids in Urine of Forensic Cases Using Fully Automated Solid Phase Extraction and LC–MS-MS
Abstract
A screening method for 18 frequently measured exogenous anabolic steroids and the testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) ratio in forensic cases has been developed and validated. The method involves a fully automated sample preparation including enzyme treatment, addition of internal standards and solid phase extraction followed by analysis by liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry (LC–MS-MS) using electrospray ionization with adduct formation for two compounds. Urine samples from 580 forensic cases were analyzed to determine the T/E ratio and occurrence of exogenous anabolic steroids. Extraction recoveries ranged from 77 to 95%, matrix effects from 48 to 78%, overall process efficiencies from 40 to 54% and the lower limit of identification ranged from 2 to 40 ng/mL. In the 580 urine samples analyzed from routine forensic cases, 17 (2.9%) were found positive for one or more anabolic steroids. Only seven different steroids including testosterone were found in the material, suggesting that only a small number of common steroids are likely to occur in a forensic context. The steroids were often in high concentrations (>100 ng/mL), and a combination of steroids and/or other drugs of abuse were seen in the majority of cases. The method presented serves as a fast and automated screening procedure, proving the suitability of LC–MS-MS for analyzing anabolic steroids.
...Findings of AAS in police cases in Sweden from 1999 to 2009 showed that the mean concentrations of the investigated AAS ranged from 135 to 2,080 ng/mL (n = 6,362) with a maximum concentration in a single sample over 30,000 ng/mL (19-norandrosterone)...
Screening for Anabolic Steroids in Urine of Forensic Cases Using Fully Automated Solid Phase Extraction and LC–MS-MS | Journal of Analytical Toxicology | Oxford Academic
master.on
New Member
Nice find Millard
It looks like it was actually an URINE test, not blood
For juicers, 550 ng/ml ain't a specially high level IN URINE, read the study below.
While the report at first suggests it's a blood test
Container(s): 01:RTB Blood, FEMORAL
in the next page it says
PLEASE NOTE: This is a revised report. Previous report on 09/07/17 did
not indicate Anabolic Steroid Panel on Urine.
Scientific literature seems to confirm that they use urine, not blood for steroid tests
Screening for Anabolic Steroids in Urine of Forensic Cases Using Fully Automated Solid Phase Extraction and LC–MS-MS
Abstract
A screening method for 18 frequently measured exogenous anabolic steroids and the testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) ratio in forensic cases has been developed and validated. The method involves a fully automated sample preparation including enzyme treatment, addition of internal standards and solid phase extraction followed by analysis by liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry (LC–MS-MS) using electrospray ionization with adduct formation for two compounds. Urine samples from 580 forensic cases were analyzed to determine the T/E ratio and occurrence of exogenous anabolic steroids. Extraction recoveries ranged from 77 to 95%, matrix effects from 48 to 78%, overall process efficiencies from 40 to 54% and the lower limit of identification ranged from 2 to 40 ng/mL. In the 580 urine samples analyzed from routine forensic cases, 17 (2.9%) were found positive for one or more anabolic steroids. Only seven different steroids including testosterone were found in the material, suggesting that only a small number of common steroids are likely to occur in a forensic context. The steroids were often in high concentrations (>100 ng/mL), and a combination of steroids and/or other drugs of abuse were seen in the majority of cases. The method presented serves as a fast and automated screening procedure, proving the suitability of LC–MS-MS for analyzing anabolic steroids.
...Findings of AAS in police cases in Sweden from 1999 to 2009 showed that the mean concentrations of the investigated AAS ranged from 135 to 2,080 ng/mL (n = 6,362) with a maximum concentration in a single sample over 30,000 ng/mL (19-norandrosterone)...
Screening for Anabolic Steroids in Urine of Forensic Cases Using Fully Automated Solid Phase Extraction and LC–MS-MS | Journal of Analytical Toxicology | Oxford Academic
Urinary Testosterone values in Korean people
median 20.03 ng/ml
mean 25.46 ng/ml
high 173.92 ng/ml
Reference ranges for urinary levels of testosterone and epitestosterone, which may reveal gonadal function, in a Korean male population - ScienceDirect
So McCarver's 550 ng/ml levels were
21.60 times korean average (median)
3.16 times korean high-normal vales
As comparison, 550 ng/ml T levels
are about twice what 300 mg androstenedione a day (100 mg thrice a day) for 28 days can yield:
Before androstenedione: 26.8 (+- 7.1) ng/ml
After androstenedione: 251.6 (+- 92.2) ng/ml
Urinary Excretion of Steroid Metabolites after Chronic Androstenedione Ingestion | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic
Why does the laboratory specimen state: Blood, Femoral comprehension drug panel blood? And where is page 3 of 8?
mands
mands
I knew it! He was taking 600mg/day of androstenedione lol.
The first listing is the site used
for the blood draw - in this case the Femoral vein, or artery
The second is the tests conducted or ordered by the ME
in this case a “comprehensive drug panel”.
The specific contents of the latter are highly variable and depend upon what the ME “is looking for” and the labs capabilities.
Jim
Swiper
Banned
can someone please clarify I am confused. did Dallas have extremely high testosterone levels like we normally test for of 55,000 or not? was that autopsy report test for testosterone done by urine or blood?
thx
thx
His level today, tomorrow or yesterday are IRRELEVANT bc "spot values" are NOT predictive of AAS mortality or morbidity. Of course the ME was aware of this fact and
is why AAS were only listed in passing.
To that end those who need a "level" to determine if a LIFESTYLE of high dose PEDs abuse can increase cardiac mortality and/or morbidity ----- don't understand the CUMULATIVE risk of these DRUGS.
In fact the cumulative risk of AAS were mentioned in the ME's report who stated: ...
the CHRONIC use of exogenous hormones .... are best viewed as synergistic contributors to Mr. McCarvers (cardiovascular) death.
JIM
is why AAS were only listed in passing.
To that end those who need a "level" to determine if a LIFESTYLE of high dose PEDs abuse can increase cardiac mortality and/or morbidity ----- don't understand the CUMULATIVE risk of these DRUGS.
In fact the cumulative risk of AAS were mentioned in the ME's report who stated: ...
the CHRONIC use of exogenous hormones .... are best viewed as synergistic contributors to Mr. McCarvers (cardiovascular) death.
JIM
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Swiper
Banned
so you didn’t know the answers to question?
Perhaps you wouldn't be so "confused" if you read the entire thread!
Have you ever had a TT level conducted before!
Did they ask for PISS or BLOOD ?
If you gave the lab PISS no wonder youre "confused", lol!
Swiper
Banned
you can’t answer my questions.
Swiper
Banned
I did and that’s why am asking iI’m still confused, Why do you have to be such a jerk?
Swiper
Banned
do you have some kind of personality mental disorder? you seem like a whack job
