Dhb spiking e1 (lc/ms)

[GodOfHormones]

Sup guys, I’ve trialed dhb (anecdotally and had a few clients on it) and something seems very odd.
Used dhb without solvents (at 50mg/ml castor oil) crp never budged above 0.6mg/ml however something just felt weird regarding how it effected me neurologically (night sweats, vivid dreams, increased sex drive, depression, insane hunger that felt similar to an ssri/ seratonergic drug withdrawal, just overall feeling of apathy). I get these symptoms on 19nors and/ or high estrogen. I only had 100mg of test as a base and I figured might as well test lc/ms e1 and behold (e1 was through the fkin roof) ( dose was as high as 700 mg).
Had a friend do the same experiment with dhb solo, tested e1 and it was high (picture 2)
Sent dhb to jano via a friend and it came back legit . Not sure what to think of this… dhb isn’t supposed to be a substrate for aromatase nor should it facilitate effects on Er yet this says otherwise lol. Perhaps why it causes weird immune responses

 

[asaly]

DHB has an incredibly interesting and unknown metabolism, because it metabolizes to DHT through a mechanism unknown to science

As a person who is very sensitive to DHT levels, I was surprised by the huge increase in libido on it, stronger than on any other drug I have taken, I made these observations before I read about the formation of DHT from DHB

it seems unlikely, but I can imagine that maybe, like boldenone (with which DHB has nothing in common), it also transforms into E1

 

[GodOfHormones]

it cannot be ruled out that dhb or its metabolites distort the E1 test, just as tren does with E2

It’s lc/ms…

 

[asaly]

LC/ms…

Forgot

 

[GodOfHormones]

DHB has an incredibly interesting and unknown metabolism, because it metabolizes to DHT through a mechanism unknown to science

As a person who is very sensitive to DHT levels, I was surprised by the huge increase in libido on it, stronger than on any other drug I have taken, I made these observations before I read about the formation of DHT from DHB

it seems unlikely, but I can imagine that maybe, like boldenone (with which DHB has nothing in common), it also transforms into E1



View attachment 270834

Which brand dhb did you use? If it’s allowed to mention.

 

[asaly]

Which brand dhb did you use? If it’s allowed to mention.

I only use my local sources

 

[SenorSuperdrol]

@Type-IIx what do you think about this?

 

[Type-IIx]

This is consistent with my hypothesis that 1-testosterone ("DHB") is a potential inhibitor of 17β-HSD1, which results in ↑DHT, ↑E1 & ↓E2, explaining the known phenomenon of increased DHT by 1-testosterone.

I have alluded to this before, here: [link, external]

We know that DHT is an inhibitor of 17β-HSD1, albeit as a fairly poor ligand:


Seen here is its 3D conformational binding of DHT to the protein.

We also know that for DHT (or T, or 3β-diol, all substrates for it) to become a "good" ligand for this enzyme, they must more closely mimic the planar shape of the A-ring of E2 (which 1-Test does better than DHT) and provide a large hydrophobic core.

1-Test ("DHB") & Primo (metenolone) seem to more closely meet these parameters given their more estrogen-like A-ring, as 1-enes.

Practical difficult arises in sorting out AAS that might inhibit 17β-HSD1 just from the inherent dissociation of good ER ligands from the other groups within the nuclear receptor family. In a multivariate system, ER is most distal from the centroid (G) of the system... ER's value from this matrix (16.4) is distinguished from MR (3.56), GR (2.56), AR (1.38) & PR (0.48). ER is therefore the most atypical receptor as regard overall behavior of the 158 steroids tested & reacts differently from the other receptors which fall into an irregular stepwise progression (PR→AR→GR→MR) away from the center. ER is highly selective, GR & MR can be considered as a group, and AR & PR another group with respect to structure/activity, although there exist molecules that can distinguish between AR & PR and between MR & GR.

It may not be that we need to find some hitherto unknown enzyme that catalyzes 1,2-dihydrogenation. Rather, this might be the basis for this phenomenon.

I'll hash this out further at some point.

 

[GodOfHormones]

This is consistent with my hypothesis that 1-testosterone ("DHB") is a potential inhibitor of 17β-HSD1, which results in ↑DHT, ↑E1 & ↓E2, explaining the known phenomenon of increased DHT by 1-testosterone.

I have alluded to this before, here: [link, external]

We know that DHT is an inhibitor of 17β-HSD1, albeit as a fairly poor ligand:

View attachment 270853
Seen here is its 3D conformational binding of DHT to the protein.

We also know that for DHT (or T, or 3β-diol, all substrates for it) to become a "good" ligand for this enzyme, they must more closely mimic the planar shape of the A-ring of E2 (which 1-Test does better than DHT) and provide a large hydrophobic core.

1-Test ("DHB") & Primo (metenolone) seem to more closely meet these parameters given their more estrogen-like A-ring, as 1-enes.

Practical difficult arises in sorting out AAS that might inhibit 17β-HSD1 just from the inherent dissociation of good ER ligands from the other groups within the nuclear receptor family. In a multivariate system, ER is most distal from the centroid (G) of the system... ER's value from this matrix (16.4) is distinguished from MR (3.56), GR (2.56), AR (1.38) & PR (0.48). ER is therefore the most atypical receptor as regard overall behavior of the 158 steroids tested & reacts differently from the other receptors which fall into an irregular stepwise progression (PR→AR→GR→MR) away from the center. ER is highly selective, GR & MR can be considered as a group, and AR & PR another group with respect to structure/activity, although there exist molecules that can distinguish between AR & PR and between MR & GR.

It may not be that we need to find some hitherto unknown enzyme that catalyzes 1,2-dihydrogenation. Rather, this might be the basis for this phenomenon.

I'll hash this out further at some point.

I’ve ween people on high promo low test often report nipple sensitivity without gyno forming and puffy / sagging lower chest. Do you think primo may interact with Er as well?

 

[Type-IIx]

I’ve ween people on high promo low test often report nipple sensitivity without gyno forming and puffy / sagging lower chest. Do you think primo may interact with Er as well?

Metenolone has no detectable (0.00 relative potency & no detected transactivation vs. E2) ER- α nor β activity per Houtman's bioluminescence data. So no, I do not think Primo interacts with ER.

From Primobolan / Equipoise Crashed my E2 – Help! - MESO-Rx its tissue-level effects are decidedly antiestrogenic, and there is data [link] that 5α-reduced steroids broadly inhibit aromatase as well.

 

[GodOfHormones]

Metenolone has no detectable (0.00 relative potency & no detected transactivation vs. E2) ER- α nor β activity per Houtman's bioluminescence data. So no, I do not think Primo interacts with ER.

From Primobolan / Equipoise Crashed my E2 – Help! - MESO-Rx its tissue-level effects are decidedly antiestrogenic, and there is data [link] that 5α-reduced steroids broadly inhibit aromatase as well.

Then that’s a second mystery considering I’ve had countless of reports within the past few months. Elevated liver enzymes, and puffy nipps evem with e2 in the gutter have been anecdotes all on different sources of raw primo. I even sent some for testing and there wasn’t another compound detected in the raws. the one thing in common all of the guys had was primo use during cutting so perhaps the lower bodyfat and water redistribution just potentiated pre-existing gyno visually idk.. The liver enzyme elevation also isn’t something that should be happening on primo yet almost every bloodwork i see on guys on it ast& alt at least double or triple their usual baseline.

 

[Type-IIx]

Then that’s a second mystery considering I’ve had countless of reports within the past few months. Elevated liver enzymes, and puffy nipps evem with e2 in the gutter have been anecdotes all on different sources of raw primo. I even sent some for testing and there wasn’t another compound detected in the raws.

Forgive me for my lack of tact; people have been irritating for objectively irritating reasons lately; so excuse me if I seem brash. This is not germane to this board; very much outside of it.

Nobody should read this and give it any weight because your apparent belief falls into the... ahem... infinitesimally small minority of cases.

Did you know that just touching the nipple often, as in the case of paranoia, can cause symptoms of breast tenderness?

I'm serious; that's a serious question.

 

[GodOfHormones]

Forgive me for my lack of tact; people have been irritating for objectively irritating reasons lately; so excuse me if I seem brash. This is not germane to this board; very much outside of it.

Nobody should read this and give it any weight because your apparent belief falls into the... ahem... infinitesimally small minority of cases.

Did you know that just touching the nipple often, as in the case of paranoia, can cause symptoms of breast tenderness?

I'm serious; that's a serious question.

Yes i know and can stimulate prolactin. I am simply sharing my observation not making any claims. The claims that i DID make were backed by numbers (dhb -e1 lc/ms) with bloodworks attached. Regarding the primo discussion it’s simply that observation. Wanted to hear if you/ someone else here has seen something similar lol
Edit: seems like you just wanna straw- man for the sole purpose of winning non existing arguments on a steroid forum ..

 

[Type-IIx]

Yes i know and can stimulate prolactin. I am simply sharing my observation not making any claims. The claims that i DID make were backed by numbers (dhb -e1 lc/ms) with bloodworks attached. Regarding the primo discussion it’s simply that observation. Wanted to hear if you/ someone else here has seen something similar lol
Edit: seems like you just wanna straw- man for the sole purpose of winning non existing arguments on a steroid forum ..

No strawman that I can see, but regardless, it's seriously – I promise – not at all my intention to argue. That's good; your confirmed LC/MS data is something quite valid, we can discuss. I think your clients were probably obsessively touching their nipples; that's all.

 

[GodOfHormones]

No strawman that I can see, but regardless, it's seriously – I promise – not at all my intention to argue. That's good; your confirmed LC/MS data is something quite valid, we can discuss. I think your clients were probably obsessively touching their nipples; that's all.

“Nobody should read this and give it any weight because your apparent belief falls into the... ahem... infinitesimally small minority of cases.”
This is the strawman part. I didn’t share a belief just a recent observation which got me thinking and wondering what could the cause or correlation be. You gave it weight by giving a valid point “perhaps they're touching their nipps”. So that’s contradictory. The point of forums are for discussions if it’s reasonable if not one can just scroll away. If we lean solely on the very finite small small amount of studies we have on these hormones (mostly in sick individuals) then might as well redirect steroids.com to pubmed.
Anyway this topic is primarily on dhb. Would like to see others posts e2 as well on it lc/ms to rule/confirm it’s effects on actual e2 lvls

 

[Type-IIx]

“Nobody should read this and give it any weight because your apparent belief falls into the... ahem... infinitesimally small minority of cases.”

A strawman means to create a caricature of an argument to argue against that rather than the argument being made.

This isn't a strawman bro.

This is the strawman part. I didn’t share a belief just a recent observation which got me thinking and wondering what could the cause or correlation be. You gave it weight by giving a valid point “perhaps they're touching their nipps”. So that’s contradictory. The point of forums are for discussions if it’s reasonable if not one can just scroll away. If we lean solely on the very finite small small amount of studies we have on these hormones (mostly in sick individuals) then might as well redirect steroids.com to pubmed.
Anyway this topic is primarily on dhb. Would like to see others posts e2 as well on it lc/ms to rule/confirm it’s effects on actual e2 lvls

Are you saying that I made an incorrect inference?

I don't think I did, because it's kind of the only explanation available for metenolone purportedly causing gyno given the circumstances of a coach, who calls himself GodOfHormones and who seems to believe that what his clients tells him is accurate, given metenolone's antiestrogenic effect.

I'm a coach too, and I'd be doing a disfavor to my clients, and probably elicit a chuckle from those who might read this, if I just accepted what they said, even firmly believed, at face value. That's the touchstone of experience in this work: exceptional skepticism.

 

[GodOfHormones]

A strawman means to create a caricature of an argument to argue against that rather than the argument being made.

This isn't a strawman bro.

Are you saying that I made an incorrect inference?

I don't think I did, because it's kind of the only explanation available for metenolone purportedly causing gyno given the circumstances of a coach, who calls himself GodOfHormones and who seems to believe that what his clients tells him is accurate, given metenolone's antiestrogenic effect.

I'm a coach too, and I'd be doing a disfavor to my clients, and probably elicit a chuckle from those who might read this, if I just accepted what they said, even firmly believed, at face value. That's the touchstone of experience in this work: exceptional skepticism.

“caricature of an argument to argue against that rather than the argument being made.” that’s the problem there’s no argument i shared what i have recently observed and found it peculiar nothing more nothing less. You seem like you just wanna hear yourself talk and said yourself “forgive me for my lack of tact” and deliberately was an ass about it. I didn’t just base my observation solely on their anecdotes i saw pictures, saw bloods (elevation of liver enzymes which was a seperate point yet odd since it’s not notorious for hepatotoxic effects). What I thought? Maybe something was off with the manufacturing process in China? I know there are a handful of actual manufacturers and the same factories make raws that are sold by thousands of vendors. They all come from the same place. Thinking out loud isn’t that the point of a public forum? ‍i appreciate your engagement and 2c, just gotta work on your attitude regardless of how much you think or actually do know.

 

[AlphaEdge]

Thanks for calling this out, I was planning to experiment a bit with DHB on my next cycle but I might just sit it out until there is more info on it spiking E1.

Which DHB did you buy btw? QSC?

 

[asaly]

Thanks for calling this out, I was planning to experiment a bit with DHB on my next cycle but I might just sit it out until there is more info on it spiking E1.

Which DHB did you buy btw? QSC?

You probably won't get an answer why this is happening because probably no one is conducting research on DHB

 

[GodOfHormones]

Thanks for calling this out, I was planning to experiment a bit with DHB on my next cycle but I might just sit it out until there is more info on it spiking E1.

Which DHB did you buy btw? QSC?

Yes