DHT benefits

[tb82]

It's expected that some people will react poorly to a drug that significantly alters hormone levels. I don't think that discredits finasteride as a tool for the majority that don't have any noticeable side effects. The fact that most people don't notice anything from such a big decrease in DHT makes a case for it not being all that important imo.

I've tried coming off finasteride for several months to see what would happen. Just got acne, no magical brain power from missing neurosteroids or any other benefit.

This!

I have tried A LOT of prescription meds in my time. I have had virtually zero side effects from any of them...except Finasteride and Dutasteride. Even Minoxidil made me feel like a goddam zombie every time I started it (tried at least 4 times).

I'd love to keep my hair but I also know whatever the meds do to me, I simply can't afford to feel so mentally dull in my career. I get brain fog like crazy...and I've been able to ignore the ever present possibility of dick side effects. I just can't tolerate the meds (though I MAY give it one last go at the super low doses Ghoul has mentioned several times...since I have a shit ton of meds sitting around ).

I have no doubt that many men have benefited from these drugs. However, it can't really be discounted that a subset of men have crushing side effects with these meds and losing the hair is simply a better option.

I'm all for people using whatever meds help them. I just have a hard time pushing through the mental fog, especially if I have no idea how long that may last. Everyone's different...I'm not a fear mongerer but I definitely understand those that say they can't tolerate the side effects. I refuse to believe that is all psychosomatic.

 

[BOSSBIG]

This!

I have tried A LOT of prescription meds in my time. I have had virtually zero side effects from any of them...except Finasteride and Dutasteride. Even Minoxidil made me feel like a goddam zombie every time I started it (tried at least 4 times).

I'd love to keep my hair but I also know whatever the meds do to me, I simply can't afford to feel so mentally dull in my career. I get brain fog like crazy...and I've been able to ignore the ever present possibility of dick side effects. I just can't tolerate the meds (though I MAY give it one last go at the super low doses Ghoul has mentioned several times...since I have a shit ton of meds sitting around ).

I have no doubt that many men have benefited from these drugs. However, it can't really be discounted that a subset of men have crushing side effects with these meds and losing the hair is simply a better option.

I'm all for people using whatever meds help them. I just have a hard time pushing through the mental fog, especially if I have no idea how long that may last. Everyone's different...I'm not a fear mongerer but I definitely understand those that say they can't tolerate the side effects. I refuse to believe that is all psychosomatic.

Sucks that it did that. Not worth dealing with brain fog. Topical finasteride and RU-58841 are good alternatives.

 

[Peterson]

I've seen lately quite a few similar claims like this though.

Yeah, just look in this thread.

Baldies are so desperate and hopeless they go full apesh*t whenever you show the dangers of finasteride.

Sad they're even harassing people who dare to speak out.

 

[Liter O' Test]

This!

I have tried A LOT of prescription meds in my time. I have had virtually zero side effects from any of them...except Finasteride and Dutasteride. Even Minoxidil made me feel like a goddam zombie every time I started it (tried at least 4 times).

I'd love to keep my hair but I also know whatever the meds do to me, I simply can't afford to feel so mentally dull in my career. I get brain fog like crazy...and I've been able to ignore the ever present possibility of dick side effects. I just can't tolerate the meds (though I MAY give it one last go at the super low doses Ghoul has mentioned several times...since I have a shit ton of meds sitting around ).

I have no doubt that many men have benefited from these drugs. However, it can't really be discounted that a subset of men have crushing side effects with these meds and losing the hair is simply a better option.

I'm all for people using whatever meds help them. I just have a hard time pushing through the mental fog, especially if I have no idea how long that may last. Everyone's different...I'm not a fear mongerer but I definitely understand those that say they can't tolerate the side effects. I refuse to believe that is all psychosomatic.

are you injecting testosterone?

 

[tb82]

are you injecting testosterone?

Yes

 

[Liter O' Test]

Yes

do you monitor your estrogen levels?
were you on a supraphysiological dose of testosterone while taking finasteride?

 

[tb82]

do you monitor your estrogen levels?
were you on a supraphysiological dose of testosterone while taking finasteride?

Excellent questions.

I am mainly on what would be considered TRT+ levels of Test. Not a bodybuilder by any means. Just back to working to get my fat ass back in shape.

Most Test compounds I have run in a week is 400 mg but usually around 160-200 (I mostly vary that depending on how much I'm actually working out).

I check blood work about every 3 months. Highest Test level I have hit is around 1150 (that was way back when my doctor decided Biote pellets were the way to go...boy did I realize quickly that was shit and found this board).

E2 levels - were in the 50s the last time I tried Finasteride and felt shitty. E2 currently around low teens (19 last time I measured) but haven't tried Finasteride again while that low. (Not surprisingly, I feel shittier with the lower E2...lol).

I added in Primobolan which lowered my E2. I realize I use laughable amounts of Test (we can call them Reddit-levels of Test...lol) compared to most on here.

My goals are mostly to get some resemblance of physical shape back, deal with crippling levels of chronic pain, and get some energy back. I've made solid progress but still a decently long way to go.

Work, life, and kids....(And too easy to make excuses)

Sorry, you didn't ask all that...ha!

I didn't think about E2 levels and how it may correlate with tolerating Finasteride.

 

[Liter O' Test]

Excellent questions.

I am mainly on what would be considered TRT+ levels of Test. Not a bodybuilder by any means. Just back to working to get my fat ass back in shape.

Most Test compounds I have run in a week is 400 mg but usually around 160-200 (I mostly vary that depending on how much I'm actually working out).

I check blood work about every 3 months. Highest Test level I have hit is around 1150 (that was way back when my doctor decided Biote pellets were the way to go...boy did I realize quickly that was shit and found this board).

E2 levels - were in the 50s the last time I tried Finasteride and felt shitty. E2 currently around low teens (19 last time I measured) but haven't tried Finasteride again while that low. (Not surprisingly, I feel shittier with the lower E2...lol).

I added in Primobolan which lowered my E2. I realize I use laughable amounts of Test (we can call them Reddit-levels of Test...lol) compared to most on here.

My goals are mostly to get some resemblance of physical shape back, deal with crippling levels of chronic pain, and get some energy back. I've made solid progress but still a decently long way to go.

Work, life, and kids....(And too easy to make excuses)

Sorry, you didn't ask all that...ha!

I didn't think about E2 levels and how it may correlate with tolerating Finasteride.

yeah maybe your side effects you attributed to finasteride were due to your estrogen levels due to just estrogen itself or because by reducing dht, you had less androgens compared to your estrogen. or just less androgens in general from being on TRT, even if its a "sports" trt.

I think if guys had higher test to make up for the loss of dht, they wouldnt get side effects, or atleast not crush dht if not desired.

 

[iorigins91]

I’ve been on Finasteride on for almost 12 years, I don’t think I’ve had any side effects, personally.

I also have labs for DHT/ Test/E2 before and after Fin. On Fin my test and free test are higher, with an increase in estradiol because of the extra T. When I stop Fin for 4 weeks my DHT returns to normal levels and T and Free T drops as well as my estradiol.

I would also like to mention I take yearly break from Finasteride by switching to RU ru58841. I believe your body needs a break and homeostasis from constant suppression of a hormone.

I am all for suppressing DHT for hair loss but I don’t think it should be crushed to 0 by using dutasteride. Some of that hormone should still be circulating the body, because it still serves a purpose besides hair loss for men that are predisposed to DHT. And it especially is vital for men going through puberty and that the drug shouldn’t be touched until they are finished developing.


Again, I did not feel a difference from a DHT level of 17 ng/dl while on 1mg fin orally. And when I stop it for a break, my DHT goes to 43 ng/dl. Not too much of a gap. But I guarantee you if I used dut and crushed it to 0, I would have side effects. I believe the people that experience severe side effects are people that have a much higher DHT level naturally and they feel great on it, so when it’s lowered with an AR5I they get the side effects. With that being said, if you are using any drug or compound that could affect a certain hormone or whatever, YOU should always get a baseline of labs, just like you should with steroids. That way when things go awry you’re able to make a comparison and see where the problem is. And that you can go see how to return to baseline levels should you need to while stopping whatever hormone or drug.

I’ve been taking Finasteride for almost 12 years and, personally, I haven’t noticed any side effects. I also have lab results for DHT, testosterone, and estradiol levels both before and after starting Finasteride. While on Finasteride, my total and free testosterone levels are higher, along with an increase in estradiol due to the elevated testosterone. When I stop Finasteride for four weeks, my DHT returns to normal, and both testosterone and estradiol levels decrease accordingly.


I also take a yearly break from Finasteride by switching to RU58841. I believe it’s important to allow the body to achieve some level of homeostasis, rather than constantly suppressing a hormone. While I support the use of DHT suppression for hair loss, I don't believe it should be completely eliminated, as would be the case with dutasteride. Some circulating DHT is still necessary because it serves other functions beyond hair loss prevention, particularly for men predisposed to DHT sensitivity. It's also crucial for adolescents going through puberty, and I believe such drugs should not be used until after development is complete.


Personally, I didn’t notice any difference when my DHT was at 17 ng/dl while taking 1 mg of Finasteride daily. When I take a break, my DHT increases to 43 ng/dl—a moderate difference. However, I am confident that if I used dutasteride and reduced my DHT to near zero, I would experience side effects. I believe that people who suffer from severe side effects often have naturally higher DHT levels, and when these levels are drastically reduced by a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor, they experience negative consequences. Therefore, anyone using any medication or compound that affects hormone levels should always obtain baseline labs, just as one would when taking steroids. This allows for meaningful comparisons if things go wrong.


Finally, I’ve had one hair transplant—1,600 (the Norwood reaper eventually slowly catches up as you get older) grafts in the temple area—and have maintained my hair well with Finasteride and RU58841, without experiencing side effects. Had I not used these treatments, I would likely be at a Norwood 4 by now, as male pattern baldness is aggressive in my family.


TL;DR: Suppressing DHT is okay to save your hair but I believe you shouldn’t crush it completely because it still has a purpose besides hair loss.

My 2 cents.

 

[Cheburek1]

Dhts like anavar helps manage estrogen. But not all dhts are created equally. Some are good some are bad.

 

[Ateam2023]

what are some of your dht bloodwork results? How high or low do you get?

 

[iorigins91]

what are some of your dht bloodwork results? How high or low do you get?

I added images of my DHT when I take finasteride and when I am off of it, see below.

Again, I never dabbled with anabolic hormones yet, so I am curious to see how well RU stands against DHT when on for example a TRT dose. If start shedding badly I’ll add Fin with RU.

 

[Ateam2023]

ok i should have clarified that you should be on some sort of testosterone dose , like my dht level was 100 when i was on 300 mg test c per week etc.....

 

[iorigins91]

ok i should have clarified that you should be on some sort of testosterone dose , like my dht level was 100 when i was on 300 mg test c per week etc.....

No problem. I haven’t done or injected anything yet.

 

[Ghoul]

This!

I have tried A LOT of prescription meds in my time. I have had virtually zero side effects from any of them...except Finasteride and Dutasteride. Even Minoxidil made me feel like a goddam zombie every time I started it (tried at least 4 times).

I'd love to keep my hair but I also know whatever the meds do to me, I simply can't afford to feel so mentally dull in my career. I get brain fog like crazy...and I've been able to ignore the ever present possibility of dick side effects. I just can't tolerate the meds (though I MAY give it one last go at the super low doses Ghoul has mentioned several times...since I have a shit ton of meds sitting around ).

I have no doubt that many men have benefited from these drugs. However, it can't really be discounted that a subset of men have crushing side effects with these meds and losing the hair is simply a better option.

I'm all for people using whatever meds help them. I just have a hard time pushing through the mental fog, especially if I have no idea how long that may last. Everyone's different...I'm not a fear mongerer but I definitely understand those that say they can't tolerate the side effects. I refuse to believe that is all psychosomatic.

It's absolutely psychosomatic, and you revealed your susceptibility to it.

Minoxidil is a well understood 60 year old blood pressure medication. It's a very simple compound that opens blood vessels to lower pressure,

Excess hair growth was a well known side effect. The dose used for hair improvement is an INFANT DOSE, far lower than the amount prescribed for blood pressure control. and NONE of the effects you're describing have ever been experienced by the millions of users taking a much larger dose, for the last half century.

MINOXIDIL HAS ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT ON HORMONES and NO PSYCHOLOGICAL SIDE EFFECTS WHATSOEVER.

Notice these clowns insist minoxidil causes the same effects as finasteride, lol. It's not a coincidence. The idiots leading this movement have demonized minoxidil because "It helps treat hair loss, so it's gonna break my dick forever like finasteride!"

You're right, you "refuse" to believe it's psychosomatic. That's an essential element necessary for psychosomatic effects to take place.

Too much finasteride crashes DHT, and wow, guess what, you get low DHT symptoms! It takes a few weeks for DHT levels to rise, and symptoms go away, except for those who are sure they won't.

The BB community has understood this about AIs and Estrogen forever. It's exactly the same dynamic, different hormone.

Just lower the damn dose! .25mg is not going to cause your DHT to crash.

Without a base of DHT control all other efforts to maintain hair will fail. Minoxidil is great, but ultimately will not stop the miniaturization process as irreplaceable stem cells are killed off by DHT.

At some point in the future, male pattern baldness will be a good indicator of mental weakness, an inability to reason, and likely someone who makes poor decisions based on irrational fear.

 

[iorigins91]

It's absolutely psychosomatic, and you revealed your susceptibility to it.

Minoxidil is a well understood 60 year old blood pressure medication. It's a very simple compound that opens blood vessels to lower pressure,

Excess hair growth was a well known side effect. The dose used for hair improvement is an INFANT DOSE, far lower than the amount prescribed for blood pressure control. and NONE of the effects you're describing have ever been experienced by the millions of users taking a much larger dose, for the last half century.

MINOXIDIL HAS ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT ON HORMONES and NO PSYCHOLOGICAL SIDE EFFECTS WHATSOEVER.

Notice these clowns insist minoxidil causes the same effects as finasteride, lol. It's not a coincidence. The idiots leading this movement have demonized minoxidil because "It helps treat hair loss, so it's gonna break my dick forever like finasteride!"

You're right, you "refuse" to believe it's psychosomatic. That's an essential element necessary for psychosomatic effects to take place.

Too much finasteride crashes DHT, and wow, guess what, you get low DHT symptoms! It takes a few weeks for DHT levels to rise, and symptoms go away, except for those who are sure they won't.

The BB community has understood this about AIs and Estrogen forever. It's exactly the same dynamic, different hormone.

Just lower the damn dose! .25mg is not going to cause your DHT to crash.

Without a base of DHT control all other efforts to maintain hair will fail. Minoxidil is great, but ultimately will not stop the miniaturization process as irreplaceable stem cells are killed off by DHT.

At some point in the future, male pattern baldness will be a good indicator of mental weakness, an inability to reason, and likely someone who makes poor decisions based on irrational fear.

Minoxidil can affect DHT and E2. It absolutely has an impact on hormones.

“The DHT level in the experimental group was 267.43 pg/mL, and 346.86 pg/mL in the control group. The minoxidil group’s DHT level fell by 79.43 pg/mL compared to the control group”



“The E2 level in the minoxidil group was determined to be 13.22 pg/mL, while the E2 level in the control group was 12.01 pg/mL. The E2 level increased by 1.21 pg/mL in the minoxidil group compared to the control group“

Of course not enough to make any difference to how someone would feel. Since we’re talking pg/mL


Also, how the hell do these dudes in these studies have such low normal E2, I’m jealous.

New Target for Minoxidil in the Treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia

To investigate the mechanism of minoxidil in treating androgenetic alopecia (AGA).The mechanism of action of minoxidil on AGA was first systematically investigated from the viewpoint of network pharmacology, including minoxidil-AGA target prediction, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[tb82]

It's absolutely psychosomatic, and you revealed your susceptibility to it.

Minoxidil is a well understood 60 year old blood pressure medication. It's a very simple compound that opens blood vessels to lower pressure,

Excess hair growth was a well known side effect. The dose used for hair improvement is an INFANT DOSE, far lower than the amount prescribed for blood pressure control. and NONE of the effects you're describing have ever been experienced by the millions of users taking a much larger dose, for the last half century.

MINOXIDIL HAS ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT ON HORMONES and NO PSYCHOLOGICAL SIDE EFFECTS WHATSOEVER.

Notice these clowns insist minoxidil causes the same effects as finasteride, lol. It's not a coincidence. The idiots leading this movement have demonized minoxidil because "It helps treat hair loss, so it's gonna break my dick forever like finasteride!"

You're right, you "refuse" to believe it's psychosomatic. That's an essential element necessary for psychosomatic effects to take place.

Too much finasteride crashes DHT, and wow, guess what, you get low DHT symptoms! It takes a few weeks for DHT levels to rise, and symptoms go away, except for those who are sure they won't.

The BB community has understood this about AIs and Estrogen forever. It's exactly the same dynamic, different hormone.

Just lower the damn dose! .25mg is not going to cause your DHT to crash.

Without a base of DHT control all other efforts to maintain hair will fail. Minoxidil is great, but ultimately will not stop the miniaturization process as irreplaceable stem cells are killed off by DHT.

At some point in the future, male pattern baldness will be a good indicator of mental weakness, an inability to reason, and likely someone who makes poor decisions based on irrational fear.

Yeah, I have appreciated the info on the lower dose of Finasteride and I have enough sitting in my drawer for the zombie apocalypse if and when I give it another try (and probably enough to share with the zombies so they can keep their hair).

I totally agree it sounds ridiculous that topical Minoxidil could make me feel "off" but it did every single time. I wasn't even worried about sexual side effects.

I truly don't worry about the "potential" side effects of most drugs. It's very possible that if I continue to work on the rest of my health, the Finasteride will be better tolerated (especially at a lower dose). I mostly looked around at the prior generations of men in my family and realized it would probably be ok if I had thin hair when I died...lol. But yeah, if it hits the point of having to shave my head, I don't really know what I would look like totally bald.

The most I think about it these days is when my kids give me shit about my thinning hair...and I let them know that's their future

Maybe they'll inherit my stash of meds and keep their hair (just gotta change the Rx instructions so they know to use a lower dose )

Thanks for the input!

 

[Liter O' Test]

Minoxidil can affect DHT and E2. It absolutely has an impact on hormones.

“The DHT level in the experimental group was 267.43 pg/mL, and 346.86 pg/mL in the control group. The minoxidil group’s DHT level fell by 79.43 pg/mL compared to the control group”



“The E2 level in the minoxidil group was determined to be 13.22 pg/mL, while the E2 level in the control group was 12.01 pg/mL. The E2 level increased by 1.21 pg/mL in the minoxidil group compared to the control group“

Of course not enough to make any difference to how someone would feel. Since we’re talking pg/mL


Also, how the hell do these dudes in these studies have such low normal E2, I’m jealous.

New Target for Minoxidil in the Treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia

To investigate the mechanism of minoxidil in treating androgenetic alopecia (AGA).The mechanism of action of minoxidil on AGA was first systematically investigated from the viewpoint of network pharmacology, including minoxidil-AGA target prediction, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

that study must be flawed. 33% reduction in dht from a microdose of a BP med?
i just cannot believe this