Dr Jims Hplc/ms Data

Ha ha, same ole mass spectro scam brand new methods n motives. Watching the next 3 months of excuses should be something special.

Not as special as the "special" class in which you spent your school years, Clam.

I'm curious though, how is it a scam if it's free?

Something for you to ponder, Clam. Don't think too hard, though. I wouldn't want you to piss your pants like in spec ed.
 
Not as special as the "special" class in which you spent your school years, Clam.

I'm curious though, how is it a scam if it's free?

Something for you to ponder, Clam. Don't think too hard, though. I wouldn't want you to piss your pants like in spec ed.
Are all the insults really needed CBS? I've seen you post some really good thoughtful perspectives. Couldn't you ask the same thing without them and be just as effective if not more? Do you really think someone is going to take you seriously or give two shits about a good question anymore?
 
Are all the insults really needed CBS? I've seen you post some really good thoughtful perspectives. Couldn't you ask the same thing without them and be just as effective if not more? Do you really think someone is going to take you seriously or give two shits about a good question anymore?

Sure, if I was replying to someone whose intent was sincere my response would be more thoughtful. However, Clam is a troll. He's not interested in constructive dialogue or taking my reply seriously. His only reason for posting is to stir the shit so he gets what he deserves. And I like fucking with trolls. If you want to spend your time constructing thoughtful replies to trolls, have at it.
 
Sure, if I was replying to someone whose intent was sincere my response would be more thoughtful. However, Clam is a troll. He's not interested in constructive dialogue or taking my reply seriously. His only reason for posting is to stir the shit so he gets what he deserves. And I like fucking with trolls. If you want to spend your time constructing thoughtful replies to trolls, have at it.
Okay! Carry on.. My mistake :)
 
People like Clam are often the first to criticize yet also the last to contribute FWO.

Maybe he would like to review 113 pages of data to determine that which is most applicable to Meso members as a whole.

Check out his less than meaningful commentary and let me know which of his posts genuinely benefited this community.

Those like Clam often believe they deserve credit for being the loud mouth naysayer, bc being a dissenter defines their myopic fund of knowledge. For instance what Clam will provide a "critical review" to determine the legitimacy of the MS when I find time to post them, LMFAO!

Seriously your brighter than that FWO!

But rest assured, those who rely on the advice or opinions of do nothing, know not, loud mouths like Clam are in a world of hurt mate!

Also know one thing, it's bc I believe my efforts are appreciated by the majority on Meso that I even bother with the disappointments, extra work load, tedium, seemingly endless frustration and COST of analyzing any UGL AAS.

Finally CBS, well CBS is an absolute asset to this forum, as are several others! The fact is it's highly unlikely I could or would even want to tolerate the BS from turds such as Clams Ass in his absence.

Regs
Jim
 
Ok fellas he is the most recent update on those 13 samples we began analyzing some THREE MONTHS AGO arg!

Recall the column I recently purchased was trashed and had to be returned to the manufacturer bc a tech did not follow protocol and clogged the damn thing. Well after the column was replaced the problem remained, the esterified AAs were not eluting from the C-18 grid in reverse phase (or normal phase).

So we consulted probably one of the most knowledgable chemists in the field of AAS production and analysis. He is convinced if a pure silica phase column was substituted and used in normal phase, in addition to a few select changes in the reverse and stationary solvents, the "problem" will be resolved.

So I get to spend another 1.2K, to finish what I started, yea baby. So hopefully we are looking at another month.

I'm really sorry guys but these issues are just NOT within my control, bc rest assured if they were, those results would be available TWO WEEKS after their submission.

Regs
jim

Something like this?
The attention often focuses on the expensive and sophisticated mass spectrometer at the “back end,” but optimal use of a triple quadrupole instrument requires expert HPLC use in the “front end.” Steroid HPLC separation can be either “normal phase,” a very polar silica column with progressively more polar organic solvents, or “reverse phase,” a hydrophobic carbon chain column with progressively less polar aqueous-organic solvent mixtures. In normal phase chromatography, the more polar compounds elute last as the polarity of the solvent (“mobile phase”) increases, whereas in reverse phase HPLC the more polar compounds bind poorly to the hydrophobic column material (“stationary phase”) and elute first.


A typical normal phase system utilizes a silica analytical column and organic solvents such as hexanes or chloroform of low polarity and high polarity solvents such as methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE), methylene chloride, ethyl acetate, isopropanol, acetonitrile, or methanol. The mobile phase starts as predominantly low polarity solvent (pure hexanes) and becomes increasingly more polar as the higher polarity solvent (ethyl acetate) is added, often in a defined gradient. In this manner, less polar compounds elute first while more polar compounds elute later with the high polarity solvent. A normal phase approach is generally used for separating rather polar compounds, which require a moderately polar organic solvent for elution.


(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3625452)

I found the balance of the article to be a good read as well.

-B
 
So now we only need to purchase the HPLC hardware and software.

Thereafter one would only need to determine (LMAO) the refractive characteristics of whichever solvents or mixture of solvents were deemed most suitable AND at what dilution!

This is very important bc selecting the optimal solvent/s creates an environment in which a balance is generated between the mobile and stationary phases. The objective being to ensure "movement" (elution interval) remains a primary function of the samples MW or polarity.)

The goal again is to ensure the sample does not "stick" prematurely to the grid or pass right thru the column to be discarded in the waste trap shortly thereafter.

Obviously any "thru put elution" could significantly effect the peak absorbance intensity and a samples calculated concentration. Alternatively a sample that sticks to the grid creates cohesive molecular interactions that may effect absorbance, in addition to the reproduciblity of the data obtained.

So the lab I'm using has already purchased a pure silica grid and will be experimenting with various solvents to determine which are ideal, once it arrives.

Also know however this new grid's primary application will be OIL BASED AAS, those that are esterified in particular.

Consequently I suspect the grid we already have will work fine PROVIDING those STANDARDS which I already purchased are compatible.

(The latter is why I can no longer assay VAR samples, the only manufacturer of a compatible standard stopped producing it!)

GUYS please understand if we are going to analyze AAS, we must do it correctly,. I want Meso test results something we can all be proud of, bc otherwise we as a community become suspect for posting JUNK test results!

And I simply will NOT forsake accuracy, reproducibility or proficiency for the sake of expediency, convenience or as a crowd pleaser.

Ok good job Berlin, I seriously appreciate the effort but perhaps you could locate an explanation of polarity, for Meso members?

Regards
Jim
 
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Has the oxandrolone standard been out of production long, or do you believe there is a possibility that it could still be found given enough cyber sleuthing?

This is the best I could come up with vis-a-vis polarity, specifically within the context of HPLC. It was taken from a manufacturer's website, and seems to be a fairly accessible, high level overview:

Separations Based on Polarity
A molecule’s structure, activity, and physicochemical characteristics are determined by the arrangement of its constituent atoms and the bonds between them. Within a molecule, a specific arrangement of certain atoms that is responsible for special properties and predictable chemical reactions is called a functional group. This structure often determines whether the molecule is polar or non-polar. Organic molecules are sorted into classes according to the principal functional group(s) each contains. Using a separation mode based on polarity, the relative chromatographic retention of different kinds of molecules is largely determined by the nature and location of these functional groups. As shown in Figure P, classes of molecules can be ordered by their relative retention into a range or spectrum of chromatographic polarity from highly polar to highly non-polar.

primer_P_Polarity.jpg


Figure P: Chromatographic Polarity Spectrum by Analyte Functional Group

Water [a small molecule with a high dipole moment] is a polar compound. Benzene [an aromatic hydrocarbon] is a non-polar compound. Molecules with similar chromatographic polarity tend to be attracted to each other; those with dissimilar polarity exhibit much weaker attraction, if any, and may even repel one another. This becomes the basis for chromatographic separation modes based on polarity.

Another way to think of this is by the familiar analogy: oil [non-polar] and water [polar] don’t mix. Unlike in magnetism where opposite poles attract each other, chromatographic separations based on polarity depend upon the stronger attraction between likes and the weaker attraction between opposites. Remember, “Like attracts like” in polarity-based chromatography.

primer_Q_Characteristicofchemicals.jpg


Figure Q: Proper Combination of Mobile and Stationary Phases Effects Separation Based on Polarity

To design a chromatographic separation system [see Figure Q], we create competition for the various compounds contained in the sample by choosing a mobile phase and a stationary phase with different polarities. Then, compounds in the sample that are similar in polarity to the stationary phase [column packing material] will be delayed because they are more strongly attracted to the particles. Compounds whose polarity is similar to that of the mobile phase will be preferentially attracted to it and move faster.

In this way, based upon differences in the relative attraction of each compound for each phase, a separation is created by changing the speeds of the analytes.

Figures R-1, R-2, and R-3 display typical chromatographic polarity ranges for mobile phases, stationary phases, and sample analytes, respectively. Let’s consider each in turn to see how a chromatographer chooses the appropriate phases to develop the attraction competition needed to achieve a polarity-based HPLC separation.

primer_R-1_Polarity.jpg


Figure R-1: Mobile Phase Chromatographic Polarity Spectrum

A scale, such as that shown in Figure R-1, upon which some common solvents are placed in order of relative chromatographic polarity is called an eluotropic series. Mobile phase molecules that compete effectively with analyte molecules for the attractive stationary phase sites displace these analytes, causing them to move faster through the column [weakly retained]. Water is at the polar end of mobile-phase-solvent scale, while hexane, an aliphatic hydrocarbon, is at the non-polar end. In between, single solvents, as well as miscible-solvent mixtures [blended in proportions appropriate to meet specific separation requirements], can be placed in order of elution strength. Which end of the scale represents the ‘strongest’ mobile phase depends upon the nature of the stationary phase surface where the competition for the analyte molecules occurs.

primer_R-2_Polarity.jpg


Figure R-2: Stationary Phase Particle Chromatographic Polarity Spectrum

Silica has an active, hydrophilic [water-loving] surface containing acidic silanol [silicon-containing analog of alcohol] functional groups. Consequently, it falls at the polar end of the stationary-phase scale shown in Figure R-2. The activity or polarity of the silica surface may be modified selectively by chemically bonding to it less polar functional groups [bonded phase]. Examples shown here include, in order of decreasing polarity, cyanopropylsilyl- [CN], n-octylsilyl- [C8], and n-octadecylsilyl- [C18, ODS] moieties on silica. The latter is a hydrophobic [water-hating], very non-polar packing.

primer_R-3_Polarity.jpg


Figure R-3: Compound/Analyte Chromatographic Polarity Spectrum

Figure R-3 repeats the chromatographic polarity spectrum of our sample [shown in Figure P]. After considering the polarity of both phases, then, for a given stationary phase, a chromatographer must choose a mobile phase in which the analytes of interest are retained, but not so strongly that they cannot be eluted. Among solvents of similar strength, the chromatographer considers which phase combination may best exploit the more subtle differences in analyte polarity and solubility to maximize the selectivity of the chromatographic system. Like attracts like, but, as you probably can imagine from the discussion so far, creating a separation based upon polarity involves knowledge of the sample and experience with various kinds of analytes and retention modes. To summarize, the chromatographer will choose the best combination of a mobile phase and particle stationary phase with appropriately opposite polarities. Then, as the sample analytes move through the column, the rule like attracts like will determine which analytes slow down and which proceed at a faster speed.

Normal-Phase HPLC
In his separations of plant extracts, Tswett was successful using a polar stationary phase [chalk in a glass column; see Figure A] with a much less polar [non-polar] mobile phase. This classical mode of chromatography became known as normal phase.

primer_S-1_NormalPhase.jpg


Figure S-1: Normal-Phase Chromatography

Figure S-1 represents a normal-phase chromatographic separation of our three-dye test mixture. The stationary phase is polar and retains the polar yellow dye most strongly. The relatively non-polar blue dye is won in the retention competition by the mobile phase, a non-polar solvent, and elutes quickly. Since the blue dye is most like the mobile phase [both are non-polar], it moves faster. It is typical for normal-phase chromatography on silica that the mobile phase is 100% organic; no water is used.

(http://www.waters.com/waters/en_US/HPLC-Separation-Modes/nav.htm?cid=10049076&locale=en_US)


-B
 
Has the oxandrolone standard been out of production long, or do you believe there is a possibility that it could still be found given enough cyber sleuthing?

This is the best I could come up with vis-a-vis polarity, specifically within the context of HPLC. It was taken from a manufacturer's website, and seems to be a fairly accessible, high level overview:

Separations Based on Polarity
A molecule’s structure, activity, and physicochemical characteristics are determined by the arrangement of its constituent atoms and the bonds between them. Within a molecule, a specific arrangement of certain atoms that is responsible for special properties and predictable chemical reactions is called a functional group. This structure often determines whether the molecule is polar or non-polar. Organic molecules are sorted into classes according to the principal functional group(s) each contains. Using a separation mode based on polarity, the relative chromatographic retention of different kinds of molecules is largely determined by the nature and location of these functional groups. As shown in Figure P, classes of molecules can be ordered by their relative retention into a range or spectrum of chromatographic polarity from highly polar to highly non-polar.

primer_P_Polarity.jpg


Figure P: Chromatographic Polarity Spectrum by Analyte Functional Group

Water [a small molecule with a high dipole moment] is a polar compound. Benzene [an aromatic hydrocarbon] is a non-polar compound. Molecules with similar chromatographic polarity tend to be attracted to each other; those with dissimilar polarity exhibit much weaker attraction, if any, and may even repel one another. This becomes the basis for chromatographic separation modes based on polarity.

Another way to think of this is by the familiar analogy: oil [non-polar] and water [polar] don’t mix. Unlike in magnetism where opposite poles attract each other, chromatographic separations based on polarity depend upon the stronger attraction between likes and the weaker attraction between opposites. Remember, “Like attracts like” in polarity-based chromatography.

primer_Q_Characteristicofchemicals.jpg


Figure Q: Proper Combination of Mobile and Stationary Phases Effects Separation Based on Polarity

To design a chromatographic separation system [see Figure Q], we create competition for the various compounds contained in the sample by choosing a mobile phase and a stationary phase with different polarities. Then, compounds in the sample that are similar in polarity to the stationary phase [column packing material] will be delayed because they are more strongly attracted to the particles. Compounds whose polarity is similar to that of the mobile phase will be preferentially attracted to it and move faster.

In this way, based upon differences in the relative attraction of each compound for each phase, a separation is created by changing the speeds of the analytes.

Figures R-1, R-2, and R-3 display typical chromatographic polarity ranges for mobile phases, stationary phases, and sample analytes, respectively. Let’s consider each in turn to see how a chromatographer chooses the appropriate phases to develop the attraction competition needed to achieve a polarity-based HPLC separation.

primer_R-1_Polarity.jpg


Figure R-1: Mobile Phase Chromatographic Polarity Spectrum

A scale, such as that shown in Figure R-1, upon which some common solvents are placed in order of relative chromatographic polarity is called an eluotropic series. Mobile phase molecules that compete effectively with analyte molecules for the attractive stationary phase sites displace these analytes, causing them to move faster through the column [weakly retained]. Water is at the polar end of mobile-phase-solvent scale, while hexane, an aliphatic hydrocarbon, is at the non-polar end. In between, single solvents, as well as miscible-solvent mixtures [blended in proportions appropriate to meet specific separation requirements], can be placed in order of elution strength. Which end of the scale represents the ‘strongest’ mobile phase depends upon the nature of the stationary phase surface where the competition for the analyte molecules occurs.

primer_R-2_Polarity.jpg


Figure R-2: Stationary Phase Particle Chromatographic Polarity Spectrum

Silica has an active, hydrophilic [water-loving] surface containing acidic silanol [silicon-containing analog of alcohol] functional groups. Consequently, it falls at the polar end of the stationary-phase scale shown in Figure R-2. The activity or polarity of the silica surface may be modified selectively by chemically bonding to it less polar functional groups [bonded phase]. Examples shown here include, in order of decreasing polarity, cyanopropylsilyl- [CN], n-octylsilyl- [C8], and n-octadecylsilyl- [C18, ODS] moieties on silica. The latter is a hydrophobic [water-hating], very non-polar packing.

primer_R-3_Polarity.jpg


Figure R-3: Compound/Analyte Chromatographic Polarity Spectrum

Figure R-3 repeats the chromatographic polarity spectrum of our sample [shown in Figure P]. After considering the polarity of both phases, then, for a given stationary phase, a chromatographer must choose a mobile phase in which the analytes of interest are retained, but not so strongly that they cannot be eluted. Among solvents of similar strength, the chromatographer considers which phase combination may best exploit the more subtle differences in analyte polarity and solubility to maximize the selectivity of the chromatographic system. Like attracts like, but, as you probably can imagine from the discussion so far, creating a separation based upon polarity involves knowledge of the sample and experience with various kinds of analytes and retention modes. To summarize, the chromatographer will choose the best combination of a mobile phase and particle stationary phase with appropriately opposite polarities. Then, as the sample analytes move through the column, the rule like attracts like will determine which analytes slow down and which proceed at a faster speed.

Normal-Phase HPLC
In his separations of plant extracts, Tswett was successful using a polar stationary phase [chalk in a glass column; see Figure A] with a much less polar [non-polar] mobile phase. This classical mode of chromatography became known as normal phase.

primer_S-1_NormalPhase.jpg


Figure S-1: Normal-Phase Chromatography

Figure S-1 represents a normal-phase chromatographic separation of our three-dye test mixture. The stationary phase is polar and retains the polar yellow dye most strongly. The relatively non-polar blue dye is won in the retention competition by the mobile phase, a non-polar solvent, and elutes quickly. Since the blue dye is most like the mobile phase [both are non-polar], it moves faster. It is typical for normal-phase chromatography on silica that the mobile phase is 100% organic; no water is used.

(http://www.waters.com/waters/en_US/HPLC-Separation-Modes/nav.htm?cid=10049076&locale=en_US)


-B
While I certainly applaud the effort many will not even read that prolonged verbiage mate. I liken molecular polarity to that of a magnet, and have found greater success in maintaining the interest of the audience by using my own words.

Understand the chemistry back round of many Meso members is limited to brewing AAS, :)

Hey B I'm not being critical of you whatsoever and appreciate all the help I can get on this complex and difficult to understand topic.

Actually it's an excellent review IMO!
 
I hear you, Dr. Jim.

I try not to pretend to have anything more than a very rudimentary knowledge of most of the subjects discussed on this website. For me, science and technology are only very casual hobbies that allow me to stretch my brain outside of the vocational specialties which I've settled into as I've gotten older, all of which are polar opposites of this type of knowledge. ;)

As such, I'm looking forward to learning more . . .

-B
 
Sorry for the delay but these are the BEST examples of the MS from the 11 samples.
What does the best mean?

It means for several there was so much contamination the degree os MS overlap was excessive and it became difficult, if not impossible, to clear identify the suspect AAS.

Have you ever seen the results of DIRT when run thru a MS analyzer, I kid you not (and will post some of those also)

So "best" in this instance means the samples had to be filtered, sonicated, and extracted etc more than what is customarily necessary.

regs
jim
 
MASS SPECS AS1766 -1 THRU 10 (LAB CODE to follow)

Oh yea guys I'm sorry I just could not get the MS to auto-rotate after being copied, and if they were copied in the upright position before being loaded onto Meso a significant portion of the data was "cut off".
 

Attachments

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The HPLC retention times ARE NOT ACCURATE and can not be used, for those reasons I discussed earlier. Any guesses as to why they must NOT be considered accurate, at a glance?
 
The HPLC retention times ARE NOT ACCURATE and can not be used, for those reasons I discussed earlier. Any guesses as to why they must NOT be considered accurate, at a glance?

I'd have to say the accuracy is flawed due to the retention times far exceeding the 10-14 min mark AAS typically elute in at that UV wavelength.

So essentially only the Mass Spectra was used to compare against a known reference standard for identification of the compounds. Without having an accurate elution time on the HPLC, qualitative and quantiatative data cannot be reported with any sort of accuracy. At least that's what I gathered.
 
Well your on the right track for sure but you may recall I mentioned the elution/retention times are SPECIFIC to the HPLC device being used, such that the results from a "Waters" will be different those of a "Voyager".

Furthermore other modifications can alter the times. Included are the solvents and their concentration for the stationary or mobile phase, the COLUMN itself, the UV absorbance window to name a few.

So in this instance the difference was the COLUMN bc the times are all to narrow, or close together (AKA HPLC "clumping") to differentiate the varied esters.

That's why we had to purchase ANOTHER column designed to broaden that gap and expand the elution interval of the more hydrophobic/esterified AAS. The latter is obviously important bc at least 95% of parenteral AAS are ESTERIFIED.

Ok I suspect folks are wondering so I'll mention it again. We had to DESTERIFY most of the earlier samples to obtain that data.

It was a very tedious and time consuming process and diminished the QUANTITATIVE accuracy as much as 10% (+ or - 5%). Hey think about that, the GETM AAS could have actually had a CONCENTRATION OF MINUS 4% :)!

However that process it did NOT EFFECT the QUALITATIVE info whatsoever , and MS were run on several occasions to ensure that was the case!

So bright Dr Jim went out and spent over a grand to obtain legit USP AAS esterified standards but did not realize (or heed the chemists advise) another column or two would have to be purchased to obtain legit results.

See, we all learn by doing to some extent, and this has been a learning process for me no doubt, yet I suspect the latter has made it all worth while, I THINK, :)

Colt, you are absolutely correct about not having legit HPLC results, bc QUANTITATIVE info CAN NOT be obtained by MS ALONE, in spite of what some have posted on this forum!

Regs
Jim
 
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Please let this solve the Alpha Pharma decable once and for all!! Fingers crossed you had TE from AP in there.
 
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