Dropping BF on Test E or Test Prop Only..

[ED209]

Hey bros, I'm trying to decide what to do. I've posted here b/c for some reason this forum seems to be the most open minded forum.

I really want to drop to 12% or lower. It seems like every time a guy that's over 20% posts something like this, a guy that's 8% says you're crazy if you do it. Ha.. Then other guys that have experience and did it at 25% or more that dropped 6-8% BF while gaining muscle on their test only cycle. It's really confusing.

I've dropped from 233 to 215 and gained a good amount of muscle since I started July 27. Prob dropped 10% BF I'm at around 20%-25% right now. I have one of those hand held BF measure's and it says 22.5%. My strength has consistently gone up since the beginning.

Anyway, my diet seems to be in check. I have prop and E so I'm going to run a test only cycle. Prob the prop at 100mg EOD 8 weeks w/ proper PCT. I haven't cycled for 12 years, so I was thinking to start off a little slow w/ the 100mg EOD.

I had gyno surgery, it should be out completely. I have aromasin for anti E.

Anyway, if Bill Roberts is around, I would def take his advice on this. Anyone else w/ experience or that knows someone that has experience with this would be awesome. Thanks bros..

 

[Bill Roberts]

I agree with and understand the philosophy that there's a lot to be said for doing what can be done with hard work and reasonable discipline first, and not relying on drugs to do what ought to be easy anyway. Actually I think there's a tremendous amount of merit to that.

That said, testosterone also can be used very effectively in your situation and only you can know whether it's being a crutch that is substituting for proper training and nutrition, or whether you know you are totally capable of doing it right, have done it right before, and are going to do it right this time as well but want to add the effect of the testosterone to that.

I wouldn't recommened only 350 mg/week average (100 mg every other day.) This is in that area where you're still totally suppressed, but usually getting only modest results. In some cases rather little results.

100 mg/day, twice that level, won't suppress you any more, and ordinarily is not excessive for side effects, and will allow more results in a short cycle such as 8 weeks than would occur in a much longer cycle with the low dosage. Thus allowing quicker recovery, and more quickly being able to do the next cycle, should you choose to do more.

 

[ED209]

Ha, Bill Roberts, you're awesome! That was like 1 minute response time! haha.. So you think it's ok for me to do a prop only cycle at 22.5%?

If I did 100mg/day, do you think I would drop BF and gain sustainable muscle w/ the right diet? I know you have a lot more hands on experience with people that follow your advice than most moderators on other boards, etc.

Have you ever seen results where a person gains solid muscle and loses a decent amount of BF? Or if it were you, would you drop to 15% before you cycled. I'm trying to get down as fast as possible.

Thanks for any response!

 

[ED209]

Oh, I'm

5'9''
215lbs
18 in neck
22.5% BF from hand held

Thanks again!

 

[Sworder]

I've dropped from 233 to 215 and gained a good amount of muscle since I started July 27. Prob dropped 10% BF I'm at around 20%-25% right now. I have one of those hand held BF measure's and it says 22.5%. My strength has consistently gone up since the beginning.

You can't really gain muscle while dropping your BF %, this seems to be an exception when using AAS though. The reason why you think you have gained a good amount of muscle is probably because your muscles weren't toned before.

How does your diet look like?

The funny thing with AAS and fat loss is that fat cells contain ARs and when those ARs are stimulated an increase in lipolysis is seen. I don't know how strong the effect is that Testosterone causes in term of calories/day. How would Test compare to an ECA stack in terms of fat loss?

 

[Bill Roberts]

Ha, Bill Roberts, you're awesome! That was like 1 minute response time! haha.. So you think it's ok for me to do a prop only cycle at 22.5%?

If I did 100mg/day, do you think I would drop BF and gain sustainable muscle w/ the right diet? I know you have a lot more hands on experience with people that follow your advice than most moderators on other boards, etc.

Have you ever seen results where a person gains solid muscle and loses a decent amount of BF? Or if it were you, would you drop to 15% before you cycled. I'm trying to get down as fast as possible.

Thanks for any response!

If it were me personally, personally I've never used anabolic steroids for cutting from high bodyfat, because for me it would be inefficient. From a high bodyfat level I can drop the fat reasonably easily without them, and for any given amount of steroid use per year, I'll get more out of them by using them for helping with mass.

Sworder brings up a very important point on the difficulty of gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. When having done steroid cycles before and being well over what is probably one's natural limit, and especially if close to or the same as one's peak-to-date for muscle mass, it's pretty much an impossible goal. When this is the case, one should alternate weeks of fat loss with weeks of muscle gain, with either slow or virtually no (if overall wanting to cut) fat gain in the mass gaining weeks.

However when on a first cycle, there's such a drastic difference between "where the body thinks it should be" (what would be its homeostasis point with those hormone levels, the training level, and the nutrition) and where it is, that typically it actually will gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. That has happened a lot of times.

My suggestion in how to do that is to maintain usual maintenance calories, but trade off some junk calories for more protein, and train more, about 1/3 more volume than you'd usually consider the most that gave good results when training naturally. This will not be maximum fat loss, but it should be significant and there should still be good muscle gain.

On muscle gain becoming slow, then I'd either focus on fast cutting, or on muscle gain with minimal fat gain, or alternating between the two.

So for example an 8 week cycle could well go as:

6 weeks: Fast muscle gains despite no increase in calories from usual maintenance, good fat loss. But at this, or another, point (this is very individual) you might decide that muscle gains are being compromised by your not increasing calories, you're already pretty happy with what you've accomplished there, but are still unhappy with fat.

Weeks 7 and 8: Fast cutting

Weeks 9-12: PCT. Do not cut during at least the first 2 weeks of PCT. Don't resume cutting until positive that natural testosterone production is well-restored.

Another approach, if fat loss is an even greater priority, is to alternate it as 2 weeks muscle gain at maintenance calories, 2 weeks severe cutting, 2 weeks again of gain either at previous maintenance calories or increased by about 500 cal/day, 2 weeks of cutting.

These have worked well very many times.

 

[Cleyon]

Sworder, thanks for sending me over to this thread! Bill you have helped me as well as ED209 with your responses. If I might ask a another question along these same lines... How do I know which type of Test is right for mu needs?

 

[Sworder]

The thing about Test E and C is the long half life that can be troublesome. It takes a couple weeks for it to kick in and it takes a couple weeks before it is out of your system. You can use Test E/C @500mg/week and then the first 2 and the last 2 weeks you use Test P @ 100mg EOD.Or you could kick start/end with an Oral.

Plug the values into this calculator so you will see how they half-life interact.
Roid Calculator - half lifes steroids ester half-life

Testex-Prolang./DepoTesto Is test C/E
Virormone/Testovis/Testopin Is Test P

 

[Bill Roberts]

Sworder, thanks for sending me over to this thread! Bill you have helped me as well as ED209 with your responses. If I might ask a another question along these same lines... How do I know which type of Test is right for mu needs?

If price and availability are the same, I think enanthate is preferable as its half life is long enough for convenience, yet short enough to clear reasonably quickly, though not nearly so quickly as propionate.

If not objecting to every-other-day injections, and if having a source of painless testosterone propionate, testosterone propionate is excellent.

For the enanthate, frontloading is the answer to the problem of otherwise having to wait weeks for results. The method is to, on Day 1, inject an amount which is equal to what your usual injection amount will be, plus the amount that ON AVERAGE you'd inject per 5 days.

So for example, let's say you plan to inject 200 mg 3x/week.

That's 600 mg/week, so the average per day is 600/7, or about 86 mg.

The average injected per 5 days is 86 x 5, or 430 mg.

200 mg (the regular injection amount) plus 430 mg (the average amount injected per 5 days) is
630 mg.

There's no need to be absolutely exact: rounding for convenience is fine. 600 mg absolutely is close enough.

So, the first injection is 600 mg.

(For other drugs, the calculation may not be done with 5 days: it will be done with the number of days corresponding to the half-life of the drug.)

 

[Cleyon]

OK, this stuff is starting to make sense. You are absolutely right about the price being about exactly the same. Now I need to find a reliable source... Here is the plan for my first cycle.

First Week:
First Monday - Test P 750mg
Wednesday and Friday - Test P 200mg

After first week:
Monday, Wednesday, and Friday Test P 200mg

For 10 weeks.

I've thought about doing Sustanon instead, but from the profiles I've read (Thanks Bill Roberts!) Test P seems to be more benign, and a better way to start off. Will I need to do a PCT after this?

Also, if I'm reading this correctly and order this "TESTOSTERONE-P 150mg/1ml - 10 ml Bottle", then I would need four bottles to get through this cycle. At $169.99 per bottle the cycle will cost $679.96...

 

[Bill Roberts]

OK, this stuff is starting to make sense. You are absolutely right about the price being about exactly the same. Now I need to find a reliable source... Here is the plan for my first cycle.

First Week:
First Monday - Test P 750mg
Wednesday and Friday - Test P 200mg

After first week:
Monday, Wednesday, and Friday Test P 200mg

For 10 weeks.

I've thought about doing Sustanon instead, but from the profiles I've read (Thanks Bill Roberts!) Test P seems to be more benign, and a better way to start off. Will I need to do a PCT after this?

Also, if I'm reading this correctly and order this "TESTOSTERONE-P 150mg/1ml - 10 ml Bottle", then I would need four bottles to get through this cycle. At $169.99 per bottle the cycle will cost $679.96...

Well, "need" is a strong term. It would be a really good idea to do PCT and you would have a substantial chance of a quite poor recovery if you don't.

There is no good reason to omit the PCT. Cost is relatively negligible.

 

[Cleyon]

Agreed, I'm willing to spend the money to do it right, I just want to make sure that I am getting what I need, so I don't end up doing anything too stupid.

Would HCG 500iu /per day starting on the last week of the cycle, and continuing for another month do the job? Or would you recommend anything else?

 

[whitegato777]

you might want to look into ghrps or hgh to speed up the thyroid and drive cortisol lower to help with the process. and a eca stack wouldnt hurt.

 

[Cleyon]

Whitecat (see what I did there) I'm not planning on using HGH any time soon. I'll save that for when I'm ready for a blow the doors off growth cycle. I'm really attracted to the Test P cycle, and have been thinking about this as my first run...
Weeks 1-8 100 mg GP Test Prop every other day.
Weeks 3-8 40 mg GP Stan 10 per day.
Weeks 1-8 GP Anastrozole .5 mg per day (or EOD) (continued for at least 10 days after cycle.)

A friend has also suggested I do a hardcore cutting cycle first Clen/T3, but I'm hearing mixed comments on T3. I'd be interested to hear what Bill Roberts or Dr. Scully have to say to that.

 

[joelski]

I wonder If this guy shot 750mg of Test Prop in his first Pin. lol.

 

[Tren Warrior]

What about T3/Clen stack ? One should be able to have a high calorie deficit without slowing down the metabolism to hard. The aas will help you keeping your muscle.

 

[atxwarpig]

Cardio does burn fat. Never forget this.