Enclomiphene instead of HCG to keep balls while blasting & cruising?

[GuerillaPete]

If enclo could do this by blocking estrogen in the brain making it think it needs to produce LH and FSH to bring up testosterone so that the body produces estrogen then the same would be true for crushing estrogen with an ai but it does not seem to happen.
I have used clomid on cycle a couple of times and some times i felt like its working other times that it did not.
I agree feels are not a good way to measure this and taking an LH and FSH blood test would solve the mystery.

 

[DrStrapped]

If enclo could do this by blocking estrogen in the brain making it think it needs to produce LH and FSH to bring up testosterone so that the body produces estrogen then the same would be true for crushing estrogen with an ai but it does not seem to happen.
I have used clomid on cycle a couple of times and some times i felt like its working other times that it did not.
I agree feels are not a good way to measure this and taking an LH and FSH blood test would solve the mystery.

OP was talking about enclomiphene while blasting, which I agreed that it'll unlikely do anything to LH/FSH. However country club hero mentioned TRT dosage. Not sure if there's anyone here needing to take AI during TRT dosage.
Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition
This double blinded randomized trial shows increase LH/FSH in healthy men treated with AI.
Since there's no actual data, we'll have to extrapolate data from these small clinical trials thus suggesting that if we treat men with TRT to a normal physiological testosterone level (in this case testosterone ~500ng/dl), adding an AI will also increase LH/FSH.

 

[Jin23]

I don't think anybody here really understands the HPTA all that well. Besides @Type-IIx that is ... Estrogen is not the only problem - it's also the androgens them selfs which shutdown, downregulate the HPTA. I suggest everybody reared his reply.

The reason why SERMs work especially good for pct is, because there are almost no androgens in your system and most of the negative feedback at that point is due to estrogen. And later on, when androgens do start to trickle down, it's still not enough to overpower the estrogen antagonism at the pituitary.

Regarding the enclomiphen keeping your balls up during a micro test injection protocol; I do believe this is possible as your serum test levels, the ones from exogenous test, are what? around 500 ng/dl? At normal physiological levels, enclomiphen works just fine for elevating gonadotropins. It might be hard for somebody who's already shutdown to start back up LH, or probably nearly impossible for somebody who's been b&cing for a long time, but for a natty, who wants to do a low dose "cycle", if he starts using enclom and then adds in a small amount of test, I presume it should work. And it should work even better with something like anavar, for example ...

However, the question is, do you really want to be taking something so toxic for an extended period of time ...

 

[GuerillaPete]

OP was talking about enclomiphene while blasting, which I agreed that it'll unlikely do anything to LH/FSH. However country club hero mentioned TRT dosage. Not sure if there's anyone here needing to take AI during TRT dosage.
Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition
This double blinded randomized trial shows increase LH/FSH in healthy men treated with AI.
Since there's no actual data, we'll have to extrapolate data from these small clinical trials thus suggesting that if we treat men with TRT to a normal physiological testosterone level (in this case testosterone ~500ng/dl), adding an AI will also increase LH/FSH.

Clomid has enclo in it.
I was talking on cycle also.
The study you posted is not done with people on steroids.
What was your point ?

 

[redro1d]

However, the question is, do you really want to be taking something so toxic for an extended period of time ...

Is it really that bad though? Are you talking about the effect on the eyes? Or the IGF-1 lowering? I didn't have any sides with 6,25 mg per day so far.

 

[DrStrapped]

Clomid has enclo in it.
I was talking on cycle also.
The study you posted is not done with people on steroids.
What was your point ?

There is no difference between 500ng/dl of serum testosterone level on how it suppress the HPA whether it's from an exogenous source or endogenous source.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.1939-4640.2001.tb03445.x
"Men receiving placebo, or 25 mg or 50 mg of TE weekly had testosterone levels within the normal range (2.8–10ng/mL) [or 280-1000ng/mL) throughout the week of daily blood draws during treatment month 6."
"No subjects in the placebo, 25 mg, or 50 mg TE groups had gonadotropins suppressed below the lower limit of the assay."
"...no subject in the placebo, 25 mg TE, or 50 mg TE group achieved azoospermia during the 6-month study period."
In this trial, two treatment group (100mg and 300mg of TE) did achieve significant suppression of LH/FSH however they also achieved supraphysiological serum testosterone (>1000ng/dL).

Now back to the previous trial I linked. LH and FSH increase with addition of AI.

So my point is that whether you block estrogen with an AI or SERM in those with normal physiological serum testosterone level, whether on TRT or not, LH and FSH will increase, assuming HPTA is intact.

 

[Jin23]

There is no difference between 500ng/dl of serum testosterone level on how it suppress the HPA whether it's from an exogenous source or endogenous source.

I'm not exactly sure how exactly you're imagining this but there would be a difference in pituitary LH output. If the hypothalamus and pituitary "sense" androgens, they will lower their output. You wont get the same gonadotropin levels with a 500 ng/dl natty levels or enhanced. Otherwise you could get 500 ngdl from exogenous test and another 500 ng/dl from endogenous production ... Obviously this isn't the case. If you injected test that woul net you 500 mg/dl, your pituitary would either shutdown or very close to it. A serm would keep some output but without it, not so much ...

 

[Jin23]

Is it really that bad though? Are you talking about the effect on the eyes? Or the IGF-1 lowering? I didn't have any sides with 6,25 mg per day so far.

That's a low dose. I did a pct not long with a 25mg dose and got quite bad ibs and hemorrhoids and some other inflammation in that region. Ymmv, I'm a bit more sensitive to serms because of gilberts syndrome ... But still, taking a serm for how long? Months on end? And you'd need a higher dose then 6.25 ...

 

[DrStrapped]

I'm not exactly sure how exactly you're imagining this but there would be a difference in pituitary LH output. If the hypothalamus and pituitary "sense" androgens, they will lower their output. You wont get the same gonadotropin levels with a 500 ng/dl natty levels or enhanced. Otherwise you could get 500 ngdl from exogenous test and another 500 ng/dl from endogenous production ... Obviously this isn't the case. If you injected test that woul net you 500 mg/dl, your pituitary would either shutdown or very close to it. A serm would keep some output but without it, not so much ...

I understand where you're coming from.
If you measure a normal male with normal physiological testosterone, his LH/FSH will likely be intact. Yet why isn't these gonadotropin causing him to have even higher testosterone? There's a lot in play when talking about the HPTA, including leydig cells sensitivity to responsive/magnitude of responsiveness and hypothalamus-pituitary sensitivity for feedback which can be affected by a variety of things, including testosterone itself. Testosterone has been shown to desensitize leydig cells, at least in animal studies. Thus, someone with 500 ng/dl of exogenous testosterone, though intact LH/FSH will not secrete more. Apologies, this is as simple of physiology as I can get without writing something short of a dissertation.

 

[Jin23]

I understand where you're coming from.
If you measure a normal male with normal physiological testosterone, his LH/FSH will likely be intact. Yet why isn't these gonadotropin causing him to have even higher testosterone? There's a lot in play when talking about the HPTA, including leydig cells sensitivity to responsive/magnitude of responsiveness and hypothalamus-pituitary sensitivity for feedback which can be affected by a variety of things, including testosterone itself. Testosterone has been shown to desensitize leydig cells, at least in animal studies. Thus, someone with 500 ng/dl of exogenous testosterone, though intact LH/FSH will not secrete more. Apologies, this is as simple of physiology as I can get without writing something short of a dissertation.

It's no problem, if you've got something more substantial to share I'm all ears.

However, I'm not entirely what you were trying to say in this post ...

 

[GuerillaPete]

There is no difference between 500ng/dl of serum testosterone level on how it suppress the HPA whether it's from an exogenous source or endogenous source.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.1939-4640.2001.tb03445.x
"Men receiving placebo, or 25 mg or 50 mg of TE weekly had testosterone levels within the normal range (2.8–10ng/mL) [or 280-1000ng/mL) throughout the week of daily blood draws during treatment month 6."
"No subjects in the placebo, 25 mg, or 50 mg TE groups had gonadotropins suppressed below the lower limit of the assay."
"...no subject in the placebo, 25 mg TE, or 50 mg TE group achieved azoospermia during the 6-month study period."
In this trial, two treatment group (100mg and 300mg of TE) did achieve significant suppression of LH/FSH however they also achieved supraphysiological serum testosterone (>1000ng/dL).

Now back to the previous trial I linked. LH and FSH increase with addition of AI.

So my point is that whether you block estrogen with an AI or SERM in those with normal physiological serum testosterone level, whether on TRT or not, LH and FSH will increase, assuming HPTA is intact.

Why do you keep talking about naturals ?
The guy asked if enclo will help him on cycle ?
Type2 already said it will work up to 100mg test give or take.
I said if enclo would work on cycle guys with crushed estrogen ON CYCLE would have raised fsh and lh.But they dont!
500 ng/dl is not on a blast of test!
I think you are slow maybe read more and comment less

 

[Type-IIx]

I don't think DrStrapped is slow, personally...

 

[bigdaddyandfriends]

I was on enclo monotherapy for about a year @ 12.5mg EoD. Got a good boost in free and total T, but after a few months my libido disappeared - maybe from high estrogen but not sure. Unfortunately my E2 was not checked before I stopped and began using MENT.

I previously attempted a 'SARM/SERM cycle' with low dose RAD140 + enclo at 12.5mg ED. The enclo seemed able to maintain testicular size/function with low dose SARM, and I went six weeks without obvious suppression. Maybe it would work for low dose test or nandrolone too. But expect it to fail immediately with any significant exogenous androgen load... when I added a low dose (10mg/day) injectable YK11 to the 10mg/day RAD140, my E2 crashed within a couple days. Estrogen puts a brake on gonadotropin release, and enclo blocks that effect at the hypothalamus; however excessive androgen load will still shut down the HPTA via other mechanisms.

I think HCG is a more viable option to maintain testicular size and keep the Leydig cells on notice, both on cycle and onmost of us would consider a test 'cruise dose' since it bypasses the HPTA completely.

I will say, there were zero sides from the (Pharma) enclo I used.

 

[GuerillaPete]

I don't think DrStrapped is slow, personally...

Then maybe you can help me understand what he said has to do with the original question OP asked ?

Enclomiphene instead of HCG to keep balls while blasting & cruising?​

Do you think it's possible? I've tried enclomiphene monotherapy for 3 months (6,25 mg daily) and my balls doubled in size. I would like to keep them that way, but I also plan to blast & cruise on test e (250-500 mg per week) for the next 2 years at least. I don't care about fertility since i already got kids, I care about keeping my ball size though

 

[Type-IIx]

Then maybe you can help me understand what he said has to do with the original question OP asked ?

Enclomiphene instead of HCG to keep balls while blasting & cruising?​

He only strayed from the topic of the title post in response to something that you said.

Look, potentially outstanding contributors like @DrStrapped should not be flamed off the board. They should be encouraged to contribute.

I only recently unblocked you - the sole person that I had ever blocked on Meso - because I noticed before logging in sometimes that you were learning, and becoming a higher quality contributor, rather than a mere troll bully. Please don't make me regret the decision.

BTW, I am glad to have read that you find my posts valuable. I appreciate the kind words. What if I told you that I see that DrStrapped could contribute similarly here if not discouraged? Wouldn't you consider contributions, even if the author's views may diverge from my own, from educated posters (I believe that DrStrapped is one of these) to have value?

 

[GuerillaPete]

He only strayed from the topic of the title post in response to something that you said.

Look, potentially outstanding contributors like @DrStrapped should not be flamed off the board. They should be encouraged to contribute.

I only recently unblocked you - the sole person that I had ever blocked on Meso - because I noticed before logging in sometimes that you were learning, and becoming a higher quality contributor, rather than a mere troll bully. Please don't make me regret the decision.

BTW, I am glad to have read that you find my posts valuable. I appreciate the kind words. What if I told you that I see that DrStrapped could contribute similarly here if not discouraged? Wouldn't you consider contributions, even if the author's views may diverge from my own, from educated posters (I believe that DrStrapped is one of these) to have value?

Yes of course there are alway good ones hidden among the dirt.
The thing is its the forth time this month a new member quoted what i said and posted a study irrelevant to what was discuses in one instance even confirming what i said .
I have focused my time lately on studying religion so that might be why I'm getting soft but yeah i get pissed of sometimes and i call out bullshit that is one way i contribute .
I know what he is saying is right i just did not feel it is relevant here but he kept pushing it.
There is also the study with Aromasin on naturals yeah it raises test, lh and fsh i even say that its the best way to raise testosterone in naturals to use a small dose of Aromasin.
But respect is earned on boards nut just given away .
Everyone can earn it if he brings answers and solutions but this time i did not feel like it was the case .
If someone is scared of this easy of messo then maybe its not the place for him.
Lets see him become a diamond under pressure If you somehow know him and say he is cool and will help people here I'm all for it .

 

[TRENdy07]

There are plenty of threads on this on excel male forums. Actual studies and blood labs… clomid doesn’t work with testosterone.

 

[ManK]

is ridicule

 

[redro1d]

So is this guy full of shit? Is he just shilling enclomiphene for profit? Or maybe some members here are just out of the loop? Or have a bias against enclomiphene because of bad experiences with clomiphene? I would really like to find out the truth ...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5RGpEJALM



View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/q4Q7W5guoho

 

[Roidster]

So why its not better to combine hcg and clomid during a blast & cruise?

Is there any contraindication?